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On April 08 2014 12:54 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 12:43 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote:
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job. People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people. You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day.... Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament... No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, it's not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything. You do realize that hundreds if not thousands of Korean progamers never even get to play a professional game for months, years, or even their entire career right? There are so many Koreans who are just benched practice partners who are putting their future careers on the line practicing their ass off. In NA you have dozens of local tournaments ran by random sponsors and some times just the community because of how much disposable income people have. The fact that you can be a streaming personality in NA and get invited to tournaments or show matches with hundreds or thousands of dollars as a prize pool is not a luxury most Korean progamers have. I'm going to come out and just say this: Korean progamers often put MORE on the line than NA players do, they organize their entire lives around it, when they are going to leave school, when they are going to do their mandatory army tour, when they are going to get back to get a degree, when they are going to get married, parents have to be consulted, etc. In NA you see players and streamers with casual attitudes, because they have so many other alternatives for revenue streams and opportunities. The idea that Koreans some how have it easier than NA players is a complete fallacy. A team in Korea just having a team house is a huge deal, when do you ever see Korean teams or players making videos boasting about their living conditions or equipment? The average NA / EU twitch streamer who gets popular has access to so much better equipment and living conditions than Korean B-teamers.
^ read this too.
Keep in mind, there's not as many small tournaments in Korea. People talk about being a pro-gamer like it's a viable career, but if you mention that you're a pro-gamer in Korea, most people think it's at best a hobby. And even worse if you're a Starcraft pro-gamer, I've talked about Starcraft to a ton of people, and the vast majority of the responses have been, "wait why aren't you playing/watching LoL?", the other responses have been "what an old game". And yet there are still people that play tons of hours in hopes of making it onto a team, in hopes of playing in Code A/S and winning a tournament in a smaller player pool than NA. Nobody on NA should whine about a lack of opportunity.
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As someone that watched nearly every pro BW event, I'm going to go with it's a lot more accepted in Korea than it is here. If you're a NA player, are you going to point to SC 2 being on TV? You going to point out that there is 1 team house? You going to point out popularity is more important than skill? I've never seen a NA citizen go to Korea and talk about how much worse it is there. Ask people here how they feel about SC 2 and they will probably say wtf are you talking about. What is that?
I'm just saying this scene is so unhealthy. You can't have all of the money going to Korea and expect this esport to be some kinda global thing. In soccer, if Brazilians were the best and then it was everyone else, you'd have all of the money going to Brazilians? People need to understand the concept of needing other scenes to be strong to help you prosper, too. More fans/viewers = more sponsors = more money = Brazilians still being able to prosper by letting some inferior humans have some cake..
Naniwa is a lot more important to SC 2 than Alicia is, whether Alicia is better or not. If being good/better were the be all/end all, 99% of NA tournaments wouldn't be invite only. It's about balance, not just having a lot of 1 thing.
On another note, since some have brought up shoutcraft; shoutcraft was a great thing. That's more of what NA needs. The "problem" there was the lack of spots available. In other words, the few players who were able to qualify were basically the only players who didn't actually need it. It only benefited a few players who "needed" it, like hitman.
If there were more spots available, more people who were "hungry" would have shown that, instead of what happened.
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On April 07 2014 19:44 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote:
Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America! On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion. Further, Show nested quote +! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up.
If neeb and masa earned a spot as the best players in the NA region, then yes, I wouldn't mind watching them get crushed vs koreans in a global final. I want to find out who the best in the region actually are. The fact that so many chime in with responses similar to mine doesn't mean that we are all anti-korean nationalistic haters, it simply means that we perceive the current WCS as being a silly joke that pretends to give representation to a variety of regions while only actually representing one. You can say that's not the point of WCS, and blizz never said it, etc. ad nauseum, but that's really just pulling the "they TECHNICALLY never specified that this is what it was supposed to be" card.
I wish I'd known about Shoutcraft. I'd heard the word a few times, and I do keep relatively active on the forums, but I never really knew what it was until reading through this thread today. I absolutely would have supported it. The koreans are great, and their skills are acknowledged and recognized, but how can you not sense the problem of having the top 8 NA players being Koreans? I and others would feel the same way if they were all Europeans, it's simply exposing the joke of this region-based system. The joke, of course, is that it has nothing to do with region. The idea of a "global finals" is really just a "final korean tournament" masquerading as a bridge between continents.
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We've been through this many time haven't we? There is always a trade off between locking the region and open it to everyone.
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It all comes down to this: the Korean players to can work more for less, and produces better results because :
- Living expense is lower in Korea (? not sure about this.)
- Americans are spoilt.
- Korean work ethic.
- Koreans can learn from their peers, which are the best in the world.
I don't see how spending $500K each year for an NA locked tournament is gonna solve any of this issue?
NA players serious about playing full-time should just move to Korea, like State did.
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I find it a little sad, that if a Korean plays in AM, they're often considered has-beens, Alicia/Revival are all playing really well right now. Looking at the global finals last year; AM folks werent destroyed at all; rather, they made the finals. And considering Bomber is now AM, shows the strength of WCS AM;
I think considering the level of play in AM, it's unfair to call some of the older players now in AM as 'has-beens'.
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guys, we're all people. lets just watch some awesome starcraft.
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fearless prediction on the next season in AM, EU and KR~
all R8 will be koreans... hahahaha~
and
AMERICA will be played by ASIANS in EUROPE with OCEANIC organizers~
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The worst part of it all is how boring a tournament it becomes. Half-assing, the blizzard sc2 way.
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Bomber ftw is my prediction. That guy always seems to come out of nowhere. He just knows how to play a series really well, always brings a well rounded variety of solid builds.
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On April 08 2014 13:42 Vidar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2014 19:44 Zealously wrote:On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote:
Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America! On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion. Further, ! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up. If neeb and masa earned a spot as the best players in the NA region, then yes, I wouldn't mind watching them get crushed vs koreans in a global final. I want to find out who the best in the region actually are. The fact that so many chime in with responses similar to mine doesn't mean that we are all anti-korean nationalistic haters, it simply means that we perceive the current WCS as being a silly joke that pretends to give representation to a variety of regions while only actually representing one. You can say that's not the point of WCS, and blizz never said it, etc. ad nauseum, but that's really just pulling the "they TECHNICALLY never specified that this is what it was supposed to be" card. I wish I'd known about Shoutcraft. I'd heard the word a few times, and I do keep relatively active on the forums, but I never really knew what it was until reading through this thread today. I absolutely would have supported it. The koreans are great, and their skills are acknowledged and recognized, but how can you not sense the problem of having the top 8 NA players being Koreans? I and others would feel the same way if they were all Europeans, it's simply exposing the joke of this region-based system. The joke, of course, is that it has nothing to do with region. The idea of a "global finals" is really just a "final korean tournament" masquerading as a bridge between continents.
Again if there was an audience then these regional tournaments wouldn't be dead either. You guys are very vocal in your hate of Koreans in other regions of WCS, but often times it's just posting for the sake of something to complain about. If the "develop" NA crowd were serious then feardragon's show wouldn't have <50 viewers. NA only tournaments wouldn't have such abysmal ratings. People bring up Shoutcraft a lot as the best example, but what about even more recent ones like the Ender's Tournament? What about the Lake Charles Scion Thanksgiving Open which, unless my memory fails me, struggled to even break 1000 viewers? Why should Blizzard be a scapegoat when the exclusion model has shown time and time again that it's not viable.
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On April 08 2014 15:27 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 13:42 Vidar wrote:On April 07 2014 19:44 Zealously wrote:On April 07 2014 19:14 Vidar wrote:
Defeats the purpose of region representation and a global finals. Global finals is just a one-day Code S in this system. At least sending "weak" American players to a global finals would be exciting, even if we just watched them get crushed. Our homegrown American/Canadian players have insufficient tournament support or foundation for their careers and personal improvement. Imagine a global finals with 1/3 actual American region, 1/3 actual Europeans, and 1/3 Koreans... that would be awesome! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right? They screwed up last year, and crossed their fingers in the hopes that a few rule tweaks and some in-game upsets would fix the ratio of Korean-to-foreigner for this year. They crossed their fingers and now all they have is egg on their faces. This notion of region pride is a complete joke. Top 8 NA are Koreans. Get your American flags ready for waving, ladies and gents! Our Americans are going to need our support at the end of the year when they must battle players from all different parts of the globe! If our Americans are anything to go by, I'm quite certain we'll be seeing only Americans at the global finals. Go America! On the contrary, I don't think watching Neeb and desRow get crushed by any combination of players would be exciting in the slightest. There is only one way match-ups like Neeb vs Zest or Masa vs soO could end, and if we both know both how it'll end and that the games won't be very exciting beforehand, what's the point in watching? You may feel that watching "home-grown" American players get stomped through the ground is exciting and if that's the case then that's fine, but I don't think many people share that opinion. Further, ! First find our best in each homegrown region, then pit the best of each region against the best of the other regions, kind of like they do in other sports! That's what it's really supposed to be, right No it's not. That's what some people want WCS to be, but Blizzard has never at any point specifically said that they want two thirds of the Global Finals to be made up of non-Korean players. People blame Blizzard for failing with WCS, but Blizzard's goals for the tournament series seems fairly in line with how it's ended up. If neeb and masa earned a spot as the best players in the NA region, then yes, I wouldn't mind watching them get crushed vs koreans in a global final. I want to find out who the best in the region actually are. The fact that so many chime in with responses similar to mine doesn't mean that we are all anti-korean nationalistic haters, it simply means that we perceive the current WCS as being a silly joke that pretends to give representation to a variety of regions while only actually representing one. You can say that's not the point of WCS, and blizz never said it, etc. ad nauseum, but that's really just pulling the "they TECHNICALLY never specified that this is what it was supposed to be" card. I wish I'd known about Shoutcraft. I'd heard the word a few times, and I do keep relatively active on the forums, but I never really knew what it was until reading through this thread today. I absolutely would have supported it. The koreans are great, and their skills are acknowledged and recognized, but how can you not sense the problem of having the top 8 NA players being Koreans? I and others would feel the same way if they were all Europeans, it's simply exposing the joke of this region-based system. The joke, of course, is that it has nothing to do with region. The idea of a "global finals" is really just a "final korean tournament" masquerading as a bridge between continents. Again if there was an audience then these regional tournaments wouldn't be dead either. You guys are very vocal in your hate of Koreans in other regions of WCS, but often times it's just posting for the sake of something to complain about. If the "develop" NA crowd were serious then feardragon's show wouldn't have <50 viewers. NA only tournaments wouldn't have such abysmal ratings. People bring up Shoutcraft a lot as the best example, but what about even more recent ones like the Ender's Tournament? What about the Lake Charles Scion Thanksgiving Open which, unless my memory fails me, struggled to even break 1000 viewers? Why should Blizzard be a scapegoat when the exclusion model has shown time and time again that it's not viable.
Shoutcraft got pretty good viewers. Nothing worse than WCS AM with mostly Koreans gets now. Enders tournament, I wouldn't know, as who is eager to support 95% invite based tournaments? As for feardragon, people obviously want to see NA in a better state, but they also want to watch some fan favorites/people they already know of.
If you were to run a tournament for the best 32 in NA, I think that would be far more interesting. I see Koreans in every tournament. Scarlett, State, Huk, Suppy, Kane, Minigun, QXC, Masa, Koma, Neeb, Xeno, Intense, Desrow, Idra, Nony, etc.
I hate watching this game, yet I would watch that. Unless one of the prodigy Korean Terrans are playing, if I'm not going to be wowed, at least give me a story. Ever since Blizzard started using their favorite word/phrase "storyline," the only storyline has been who is going to quit/retire next. Period.
I want to know who is the best in NA. I don't care if Arthur would be able to beat these guys with all-ins if he was thrown into the mix. Save that for a show match or something. Players like minigun, despite being one of the best in NA, with massive potential, still go to school. If players like that were to start winning WCS tournaments, maybe they would put school on hold and would be able to get the extra practice to compete with any Koreans.
There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Every day, there's fewer foreigners left to cheer for and you see less and less of them. If I'm going to just watch Koreans winning, bring back BW so I can at least be impressed.
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Nice, I hope that maybe next season WCS eu will be similar
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On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment?
Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled.
In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
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On April 08 2014 16:31 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 16:11 playa wrote:There was a post on reddit about Blizzard not even promoting WCS AM the other day. They're probably embarrassed by this tournament and where it's taking place. Who is thrilled at the moment? Are you for real? Do you actually exist as a human being who thinks these things? Because if you've been paying ANY attention to this thread whatsoever, plenty of people are thrilled. In fact, if WCS AM becomes 100% Korean, I'll be even more thrilled than I am now. I won't lie, a very tiny bit of that will be out of spite.
Plenty of people? This is getting no more viewers than shoutcraft got. When Blizzard doesn't bother to promote it, that's kinda telling. When the business that is running WCS stops running it, mid-season, you know things aren't so hot.
This would be like the equivalent of instead of running the TSL in BW, they decided to run a star league for the Korean B teams. No one f'ing cares, if the alternative is getting to watch the best foreigners/fan favorites. Thestc is probably better than most NA players, if not all, yet no one cares. That's life. SC 2 isn't doing so hot right now, because no one cares.
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On April 08 2014 13:05 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 13:01 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:50 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 12:43 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote:
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job. People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people. You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day.... Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament... No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything. There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason. People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now. That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day. You have to be a little more proactive than that. Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest.
It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it...
You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with?
If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
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On April 08 2014 16:50 MasterOfPuppets wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 13:05 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 13:01 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:50 Chaggi wrote:On April 08 2014 12:43 playa wrote:On April 08 2014 12:19 Sevre wrote:
As much as I do not want to wade into this, I can't resist but point out the flaw in the "national pride" argument. People only want to watch out of nationalistic desire when the presence of another nationality poses an obstacle. Keeping Koreans out of leagues isn't going to increase viewer numbers. We're more interested in seeing Scarlett stomp Koreans than seeing Scarlett stomp local players.
I want to see the Korean dominance end as much as the next foreigner, but that requires skill and resources which the scene just doesn't have, and region locking to create this veneer of regional pride is not going to help the scene.
You're missing the point. To be the best at anything, you need to have talent + dedication + sufficient income. Until being one of the best players in a country means some financially, how can you grow your talent base? How can you keep your talent in the game? If it's a hobby to one person and a job to another, that gap in skill should never close. You have to increase the number of people that can pursue it as a job. People who scoff at the NA scene need some perspective. Is there any profession in the NA where you could say you're in the top 32 of the NA, yet you still have to call it a hobby? It makes no sense for NA players to be in such of a predicament. That's a recipe for a dead game, when people have no incentive to be one of the best in the NA. We're not talking about a small scope, either. We're talking about being amongst the best, out of hundreds of thousands of people. You can't compete with Koreans until you attract more talent and create more jobs for said players, enabling them to practice 8 hours instead of working another job on the side for 8 hours a day.... Idra has gone from one of the better players in the NA to being out of the scene. It's insane to lose such a fan draw + talented player due to only rewarding like the best 32 players in the whole world. He retired after he failed to qualify for WCS. You know, the tournament that has essentially become the only tournament... No one has more money in the scene than Blizzard. It is their game. If Blizzard isn't going to take charge in growing scenes, then who is? This game needs to grow, because at it's current state, its not exactly encouraging anyone to do much of anything. There are probably hobbies/professions like that, you've just never heard of them for that very reason. People talk about the NA region like they need help, but honestly - it's up to the players to actually practice and compete. Stop depending on Blizzard to do something, if they wanted to create a viable NA scene, they would've done it by now. That's the thing, though. They have acknowledged this and realized it was idiotic to keep it how it was, whether people understand this or not. The problem is now the pace that changes actually take effect. They try to be politically correct, though, and hope things will work themselves out. They don't want to get their hands dirty so to speak, but they fail to realize the absurdity of relying on kids like neeb, who are still in school, to knock out Korean pros who play 14 hours a day. You have to be a little more proactive than that. Why ignore the fact that there are lots of Koreans that are also in school, that are better than pretty much any American pro/streamer, and yet can't get past Code B/A or stay on a team? Or about the fact that Life, Maru are still in high school just like your neeb example. It's not like the world is different in Korea. The biggest advantage that Korea has is that it's smaller than America, and people can travel easily, but it doesn't change the fact that players, pro or semi-pro, don't play as well as any Korean that's putting any bit of time. They come on the forums and complain about it, and when the community (read: TotalBiscuit), gives them a tournament to actually compete in, players just randomly drop out and don't show up and it becomes a huge drama shitfest. It's easy Chaggi, he ignores that part because it makes his argument look silly and stupid (which it is) even though it's true. To add to this, Korean players get much fewer opportunities to prove themselves or earn any money simply because there are so very few tournaments there. Stuff like the ESV Weeklies, the EWM, the KSL, FXO invitationals and KotH events and various other online tournaments helped a bit, but those are long gone. And yet you don't see them beg for charity and whine on forums about it... You have a cutthroat environment that breeds strong players as a result of how fierce the competition is and how scarce the opportunities are. Why should they be less deserving of success than the people who don't even bother to do well in the tournaments that are at their doorstep or in which they're seeded/invited? Why should they be less deserving of opportunities than the people who repeatedly have shown that they don't give enough of a shit about the tons of opportunities they're already given to begin with? If anyone thinks "charity" events for a certain region are needed, I don't fundamentally disagree with that idea. But that certain region would have to be Korea.
I ignored it because it deserved to be ignored. It would be different if it wasn't a Korean saying it. This guy knows better, though. That's like tooting your horn because you're a Canadian kid that happens to be better at hockey than a Mexican in Mexico. Wow, that's says a lot. Pat on the back. That just stresses the importance of comparing people who play in the same environment.
Minigun could be just as talented, if not more talented, than any Korean, but if he can't practice against Koreans (which he can't), simply due to where he is located, then how the hell are these players supposed to get better if every practice game they play, they are playing against weaker opponents? Then, you add in that he is going to college, yet players like this are supposed to fare well against Koreans. It's a testament to how talented some of these players are in the NA that they can do anything.
The sentiment has always been to be the best, you have to move to Korea. We have what, 1 team house here? It's a joke playing in NA. No one plays SC 2 competitively here, in NA, as there is no reason to try to. Who is going to coach you? Even if we had a similarly talented player as Maru, it would just be wasted. He'd prob be going to school and working... and wondering where can I get coaching to take me to the next level? He would prob be better off playing LoL.
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On April 08 2014 09:43 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2014 09:32 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 07 2014 18:10 esdf wrote:On April 07 2014 18:06 Ragnarork wrote:On April 07 2014 17:58 esdf wrote:
NA qualis now officially a career restart point for shitty hasbeen koreans. Bomber, Polt, Tajea, HyuN. Shitty hasbeen Koreans. The level of What-the-fuck here is beyond imagination, please manner-up. Talking about the other half of the bracket. Would prefer shitty neverbeen americans to hasbeens. Blizzard really needs to do something with who's allowed and who's not allowed to participate in each region. It's not Blizzard's problem to fix. If the best North America has to offer can't even compete with "has been" Koreans then what the fuck is the point of giving them tickets to Blizzcon? Honestly answer that for me? Other than wanting to just make sure that the Foreigners get a bigger slice of the Prize pool pie that they haven't earned, what is the point of sending them to the higher tournaments only so they can get crushed by the top tier Koreans. How many NA players are actually making money worth mentioning, via SC 2? If you're not making money, you have to find other avenues. If you're not going to increase the amount of NA players who can devote the time to the game, as you would another job, then how are you supposed to catch up to the Koreans who are already better, when the game is already a viable job to them? WCS AM only hurts NA players' chances of being able to compete at the level of Koreans. We're now relying on talented kids who are still going to school, while facing Koreans who are only tasked with playing SC 2... That's our best bet due to the lack of opportunities Blizzard provides NA players who need something they can call a job.
Progaming was a RISK.
Progaming is a RISK.
Progaming will be a RISK in the future.
Its not a job that is 'safe' income like other jobs. You are still not entitled to earn money or get far in tournaments, because you are from the region and/or call yourself progamer. I dare to say the Koreans (in general) and those which take part in WCS NA have the same or a higher risk. NA progamers are usually paid and/or paid more than the average Korean. Do you believe Arthur gets rich of progaming? Do you really believe he earns more than DemusliM/Xenocider etc? I cannot say, because I don't know - but I am willing to say I really don't believe it.
Lots of you guys assume viewership is worth a ton, which is true, but you use it as pro to an MORE american based tournament which is the mistake. An all NA Ro8 wouldn't bring half as many viewers. If you want foreigners in your Ro8 - go fucking cheer on them or whatever, but its still THEIR JOB to qualify. If they cannot make it - they are not deserving of that spot.
Scarlett, MajOr are fantastic players. Neeb and pucK were 1/2 maps away from qualifying. Go cheer for them the next time.
Do you see us crying in Europe? We have 5 Koreans in the Ro8, but I believe that the players we have in the Ro8 are all worthy and can take out the Koreans.
Snute can beat MMA
VortiX in his current form is favorite over jjakji
Welmu can take out san even though thats tricky.
If you want to help your players, stop trying to cut out the competition but rather support them in gaining some confidence. Personally I wouldn't want to be an American pro. The fanbase is a SHAME to the scene. No progamer in NA probably has the slightest feeling of being believed in, because everyone just talks about "ban the Koreans".
Do you really believe that will help the NA scene grow and get better? NOPE
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Love the brackets! Gonna be some sick games for sure :D
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On April 08 2014 17:15 Mekare wrote:
Love the brackets! Gonna be some sick games for sure :D
Yeah! So many fantastic different players! Almost all the matches have big time name value as well.
Hoping for Bomber vs Polt finals! :D
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EPT
