However, I believe if only the patch about blink stalker(mothership core precisely) released today instead of tomorrow...things would be totally different.
Arthur has constantly been a korean GM top 10 on ladder while been teamless for a lot of time, plus he had all the VODs he needed to do some research! Actually it would have been an upset if he hadn't make it through.
"Jaedong's elimination was not the only surprise in the group as the little-known Korean Protoss (P)ESC.Arthur claimed an unlikely first place finish." I have heard Artosis saying that Arthur is very good and very talented even back then when he as in Slayers
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
Nothing.
It does however make for better display in skills and usually has the better player win. Some all ins is fine, but the sheer amount and strenght of every combination of Protoss stuff (and the over 50% presence of P in televised matches) annoys people to no end. There's very few tricks like Protoss has a Zerg can pull off, and I don't think Terran has any hard to scout but highly lethal all ins .
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
It's not moral, it's a game. They are just BAD games, which shouldn't be celebrated as the acme of sc2 skill or entertainment. ( I recognize the Meta needs them, I'm just saying they should not be standard.)
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
Nothing.
It does however make for better display in skills and usually has the better player win. Some all ins is fine, but the sheer amount and strenght of every combination of Protoss stuff (and the over 50% presence of P in televised matches) annoys people to no end. There's very few tricks like Protoss has a Zerg can pull off, and I don't think Terran has any hard to scout but highly lethal all ins .
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers...
They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 21:03 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:51 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:48 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:35 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
People are going to be miffed. They should be.
It should be well known that I hate balance whining and people complaining that their favorite player was elimited in a fashion they didn't approve of. I have always admired JD and Flash for how they discuss their losses, focusing on what they can change.
And a win is a win is a win, 6 pool or 40 minute macro game. JD was having an off night and he might have won against those all ins if he wasn't.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers...
They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much.
True, but those types of games don't demonstrate that. Which is why I qualified with 'a pattern'
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 21:03 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:51 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:48 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:35 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
People are going to be miffed. They should be.
Did you just compare HerO's win over JD to the Has build?
EPT
