Arthur, Bomber advance from Group D of WCS AM Ro32 - Page 7

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Squat

Sweden7978 Posts

February 27 2014 15:14 GMT

#121

On February 28 2014 00:07 Ragnarork wrote:

Show nested quote +

Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.

His ZvT is bad. His openers are too risky and he doesn't scout against protoss. If he survives the early game he can often just bludgeon the protoss with mechanics, but it's a rather fragile strategy.

Good enough?

Nebuchad

Switzerland12470 Posts

February 27 2014 15:22 GMT

#122

On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:

On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:

On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.

It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.

Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.

It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.

Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.

That's funny because I read that exactly as:
"He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".

Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.

And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.

And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have.
And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.

Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.

That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).

This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.

I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.

The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.

That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.

Then it doesn't really matter who the better player is in a real setting. You know how some koreans are massively good in the practice house and destroy everyone, but then they get to play in the spotlight and they fall apart cause they get nervous? You could say their opponents are winning but they're still the better player. Except no one says that, cause it doesn't matter what you're capable of doing, it just matters what you actually do. We play tournaments to see who wins that specific game on that specific day, not to see who is the better player based on preconceived stuff.

Noonius

Estonia17413 Posts

February 27 2014 15:23 GMT

#123

On February 27 2014 16:16 Seeker wrote:
[image loading]

-__-;;

this hurts so much

Ragnarork

France9034 Posts

February 27 2014 15:27 GMT

#124

On February 28 2014 00:14 Squat wrote:

Show nested quote +

I was more thinking about something along the line of "Jaedong has mistaken his match again Has for a Grand Finals".
But fair enough

(Your sig does not reflect enough that you're JD #1 though...

, and I don't see you in the list )

tili

United States1332 Posts

February 27 2014 15:34 GMT

#125

On February 28 2014 00:22 Nebuchad wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:

On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:

The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.

That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.

You are arguing against yourself. I'm not saying JD should have won. I was just stating that he is he better player so he should win MOST the time. Him losing one series doesn't make him a worst player overall, nor does it make Has a better player overall.

If JD and I played 100000 independent games(ie no learning in between) , I'd eventually win two in a row. That simply doesn't make me better.

tili

United States1332 Posts

February 27 2014 15:35 GMT

#126

If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are?

tili

United States1332 Posts

February 27 2014 15:38 GMT

#127

On February 27 2014 23:50 Ragnarork wrote:

Show nested quote +

On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:

On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:

On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:

The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.

That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.

Edit: that is just a really shitty argument. Have you ever noticed how power ranks don't include head-to-head, in the aggregate of games not the result of a single one. That's because there's some way of analyzing skill apart from a single series or match.

You just said a single series or match doesn't matter on its own, alone. Don't worry, JD still has better stats than Has. And we're not denying that. But saying "The better player didn't win" is a complete nonsense.

He still lost this series, and Has won it. Period. Statistics are just a way to say "There's more chance than for a huge number of matches, the tendancy should be this or that".

Fans have the right to be sad, but they should also learn to respect the player that beat their favorite. Damn how hard can it be?

Wait,
A. I do respect Has
B. his strategies were lame, not bad, but lame.

I'm still sad because now we can't see JD's potential later games, nor a much better rematch vs. bomber than that snoozefest that was 'Bomber holds cheese yet again!'

Plansix

United States60190 Posts

February 27 2014 15:41 GMT

#128

On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote:
If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are?

Soccer riots are pretty harsh. And I've mocked some Yankees fans pretty hard when their team knocked out. And people who blame the refs for their teams loss are openly mocked.

Nebuchad

Switzerland12470 Posts

February 27 2014 15:42 GMT

#129

On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote:
If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are?

I try to always draw the same line: I have no problem with being sad that someone lost, I have a problem with being sad that someone won. I have no problem with being happy that someone won, I have a problem with being happy that someone lost.

It's a thin line, I can't say for sure that I have never crossed it myself, but I try to hold to it. Only way to never disrespect players, in my mind.

Squat

Sweden7978 Posts

February 27 2014 15:46 GMT

#130

On February 28 2014 00:27 Ragnarork wrote:

Show nested quote +

I was more thinking about something along the line of "Jaedong has mistaken his match again Has for a Grand Finals".
But fair enough

(Your sig does not reflect enough that you're JD #1 though...

, and I don't see you in the list )

I'm not a part of any fanclub and I don't really put my favorite players in my sig, it just seems a little silly to me.

I've been a JD fan since just after he won his first OSL, he is the person that made me discover esports and the person that makes me still care about it. I'm just not delusional about his abilities.

Swift118

United Kingdom335 Posts

February 27 2014 15:51 GMT

#131

On February 27 2014 22:46 SC2Toastie wrote:

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Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers...

They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much.

I never mentioned Arthur because he has shown some impressive displays in the past and in case you did not watch yesterday he did not actually play vs JD. I was talking about Has and I gave a fairly blunt but accurate description and never actually said he is not a good player.

Ragnarork

France9034 Posts

February 27 2014 16:02 GMT

#132

On February 28 2014 00:42 Nebuchad wrote:

Show nested quote +

Being happy about a player losing can be okay-ish if that's for a good reason (justice in Proleague is an example :D)

Other than that, I fully agree. Fans sadness about a player's loss is completely okay (and no problem about that). The problems arise when fans lose their common sense and blame anything except the player's skill. To these, I want to say "It's okay, it's not a single loss that will make him go from being very good to being very bad". It happens, and it's no big deal. It's a big deal (i.e. people can start call a player "bad") when the bad days are the trend and the good days the exceptions.

The_Darkness

United States910 Posts

February 27 2014 16:04 GMT

#133

Disappointed by the JD games although the cannon-cheese was kind of fun, just because I'd never seen it before. I don't understand why JD wouldn't play safe against a player he wasn't familiar with. In the DT game he saw how late the nexus was (relative to a one-gate, one-gas fast expand), saw that there weren't any units out, saw double gas and I believe was able to click on the extractors, saw no tech, saw no MSC and yet still didn't bother to put a spore down around 6:30. Why wouldn't he at least be worried about some sort of aggressive stargate play? He even scouted again pre-7:00 and only saw one sentry. How could he not wonder where all of that gas went? Maybe he's playing a bit too robotically.

Against Bomber, maybe he has a mental hang up. He seems to lose every engagement badly. I'm actually curious -- why did he lose so badly? Playing mine-less can get you in trouble. I feel like Scarlett handles this style much better. Was JD's muta count too low? Should he have focused more on banelings? Should he have countered when Bomber went for his fourth?

XaCez

Sweden6991 Posts

February 27 2014 16:06 GMT

#134

On February 28 2014 00:12 jakethesnake wrote:

Show nested quote +

So, according to my math:
1765 people voted (# of votes/2)
1732 voted for JD (or only 33 didn't vote for JD)

At most, only 33 people of 1765 or 1.9% of people could have gotten it correct (assuming best case scenario here).

I am the 1.9 %.

caznitch

Canada645 Posts

February 27 2014 16:07 GMT

#135

I don't understand the hate for these series. I loved the Bomber vs. Has cheese as it displayed Bomber's great decision making. It's at points like this that display player skill above simply following predefined builds. I wouldn't want to see these games 100% of the time, just like I wouldn't want to see 20 min macro snooze fests 100% of the time.

I missed the JD vs. Has series so I can't comment.

I find it funny the different reaction to these toss cheeses as opposed to Maru's 11/11 cheese which was his code S life on the line. Cheese is what makes SC great!

Ragnarork

France9034 Posts

February 27 2014 16:15 GMT

#136

On February 28 2014 01:07 caznitch wrote:
I don't understand the hate for these series. I loved the Bomber vs. Has cheese as it displayed Bomber's great decision making. It's at points like this that display player skill above simply following predefined builds. I wouldn't want to see these games 100% of the time, just like I wouldn't want to see 20 min macro snooze fests 100% of the time.

I missed the JD vs. Has series so I can't comment.

I find it funny the different reaction to these toss cheeses as opposed to Maru's 11/11 cheese which was his code S life on the line. Cheese is what makes SC great!

No game will be as embarassing for a player than the proxy rax from Happy versus the 3 hatch before pool from Life, where Life won.

And btw, if Cheese was so good, players would use it every single game. Apparently, it's not, and is at its right place now: a high risk high reward strategy.

Bomber showed he doesn't give a fuck about Has cheeses

Squat

Sweden7978 Posts

February 27 2014 16:16 GMT

#137

On February 28 2014 01:04 The_Darkness wrote:
Disappointed by the JD games although the cannon-cheese was kind of fun, just because I'd never seen it before. I don't understand why JD wouldn't play safe against a player he wasn't familiar with. In the DT game he saw how late the nexus was (relative to a one-gate, one-gas fast expand), saw that there weren't any units out, saw double gas and I believe was able to click on the extractors, saw no tech, saw no MSC and yet still didn't bother to put a spore down around 6:30. Why wouldn't he at least be worried about some sort of aggressive stargate play? He even scouted again pre-7:00 and only saw one sentry. How could he not wonder where all of that gas went? Maybe he's playing a bit too robotically.

Against Bomber, maybe he has a mental hang up. He seems to lose every engagement badly. I'm actually curious -- why did he lose so badly? Playing mine-less can get you in trouble. I feel like Scarlett handles this style much better. Was JD's muta count too low? Should he have focused more on banelings? Should he have countered when Bomber went for his fourth?

He is over-aggressive, lacks patience and fights way too much off creep. Also his muta retention is really poor, some of the worst I've seen at that level of play. He tends to just slam them into bio balls, which means he has to spend thousands of gas on rebuilding mutas, leaving him with far too few banes and stopping him from teching in a timely manner. He also makes units that produce no ROI when he should be making drones.

It has nothing to do with Bomber per say, he is just good enough to mercilessly exploit these shortcomings. JD lost to Dayshi recently. It's strange how he under-performs in so many different aspects of the MU.

And btw, if Cheese was so good, players would use it every single game. Apparently, it's not, and is at its right place now: a high risk high reward strategy.

That's how it should be. Right now it is out of whack for protoss, the reward part is too big and the risk part is too small.

looken

727 Posts

February 27 2014 16:23 GMT

#138

i dont think you get the reason for all the frustration ragnarork. yeah part of it surly is because JD is a huge fan favorite and he just lost. but i think most ppl are upset because it was yet another night of all in after all in after all in. it's just getting boring. and it happens in way too many games that involve protoss these days. it's just not fun to watch any more (i'm sure it is to some viewers, but as you can see from the reactions whenever a player gets knocked out by a protoss all in, most ppl seem to dislike that play style.)

now you can of course say "that's how the game is, deal with it" but you see, viewers don't depend on starcraft, but starcraft depends on viewers. so maybe we should finally stop the "everything is fine, just ignore the whiners" BS and start taking things serious. because, to be honest, i think i'm a pretty average SC2 consumer. i'm to busy to actually play the game a lot, so i'm on a pretty bad lvl (plat, if you must know) but i still enjoy watching it. but lately, my interest for starcraft drops drastically whenever i know its gonna be a lot of PvX. it's not because i hate protoss or protoss players or whatever, it's just that i grew tiered of seeing the same games over and over again. so far i'm still sticking around and tune in most of the times, but i don't know for how long that will stay the same, if the game does not evolve away from that abusive style we see right now.

so i guess what i'm trying to say is that i feel like i'm a pretty good representative of the average viewer this scene needs to sustain itself. and lately i'm loosing interest in the game. and that's pretty bad, because if i actually am a good representative of the average viewers, a lot of them feel the same. and a lot of ppl losing interest in SC2 would obviously be pretty bad.

Ragnarork

France9034 Posts

February 27 2014 16:23 GMT

#139

On February 28 2014 01:16 Squat wrote:
That's how it should be. Right now it is out of whack for protoss, the reward part is too big and the risk part is too small.

Well, considering the games from Polt @ IEM Cologne, I'd say there's still room for improvement for player to train to defend against toss cheeses. Indeed, it seems to be the case. But I strongly reconsidered that when I saw Polt beating Rain on Yeonsu vs Blink...... (not to say it's necessary a dead strategy now, Polt being really good doesn't help, but it clearly showed that there are ways that haven't been explored yet...)

xM(Z

Romania5299 Posts

February 27 2014 16:29 GMT

#140

JD was out the moment Bomber lost the winners match.
i watched their 0 - 2 then went to sleep having really low expectations for JD to make it out of the group.

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