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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:07 Ragnarork wrote: Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.  His ZvT is bad. His openers are too risky and he doesn't scout against protoss. If he survives the early game he can often just bludgeon the protoss with mechanics, but it's a rather fragile strategy. Good enough? | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12328 Posts
On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote: That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game. Then it doesn't really matter who the better player is in a real setting. You know how some koreans are massively good in the practice house and destroy everyone, but then they get to play in the spotlight and they fall apart cause they get nervous? You could say their opponents are winning but they're still the better player. Except no one says that, cause it doesn't matter what you're capable of doing, it just matters what you actually do. We play tournaments to see who wins that specific game on that specific day, not to see who is the better player based on preconceived stuff. | ||
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Noonius
Estonia17413 Posts
On February 27 2014 16:16 Seeker wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/k67K0OT.png) -__-;; this hurts so much | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:14 Squat wrote: His ZvT is bad. His openers are too risky and he doesn't scout against protoss. If he survives the early game he can often just bludgeon the protoss with mechanics, but it's a rather fragile strategy. Good enough? I was more thinking about something along the line of "Jaedong has mistaken his match again Has for a Grand Finals". But fair enough (Your sig does not reflect enough that you're JD #1 though... , and I don't see you in the list ) | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:22 Nebuchad wrote: Then it doesn't really matter who the better player is in a real setting. You know how some koreans are massively good in the practice house and destroy everyone, but then they get to play in the spotlight and they fall apart cause they get nervous? You could say their opponents are winning but they're still the better player. Except no one says that, cause it doesn't matter what you're capable of doing, it just matters what you actually do. We play tournaments to see who wins that specific game on that specific day, not to see who is the better player based on preconceived stuff. You are arguing against yourself. I'm not saying JD should have won. I was just stating that he is he better player so he should win MOST the time. Him losing one series doesn't make him a worst player overall, nor does it make Has a better player overall. If JD and I played 100000 independent games(ie no learning in between) , I'd eventually win two in a row. That simply doesn't make me better. | ||
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tili
United States1332 Posts
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tili
United States1332 Posts
On February 27 2014 23:50 Ragnarork wrote: You just said a single series or match doesn't matter on its own, alone. Don't worry, JD still has better stats than Has. And we're not denying that. But saying "The better player didn't win" is a complete nonsense. He still lost this series, and Has won it. Period. Statistics are just a way to say "There's more chance than for a huge number of matches, the tendancy should be this or that". Fans have the right to be sad, but they should also learn to respect the player that beat their favorite. Damn how hard can it be? Wait, A. I do respect Has B. his strategies were lame, not bad, but lame. I'm still sad because now we can't see JD's potential later games, nor a much better rematch vs. bomber than that snoozefest that was 'Bomber holds cheese yet again!' | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote: If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are? Soccer riots are pretty harsh. And I've mocked some Yankees fans pretty hard when their team knocked out. And people who blame the refs for their teams loss are openly mocked. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12328 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote: If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are? I try to always draw the same line: I have no problem with being sad that someone lost, I have a problem with being sad that someone won. I have no problem with being happy that someone won, I have a problem with being happy that someone lost. It's a thin line, I can't say for sure that I have never crossed it myself, but I try to hold to it. Only way to never disrespect players, in my mind. | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:27 Ragnarork wrote: I was more thinking about something along the line of "Jaedong has mistaken his match again Has for a Grand Finals". But fair enough (Your sig does not reflect enough that you're JD #1 though... , and I don't see you in the list )I'm not a part of any fanclub and I don't really put my favorite players in my sig, it just seems a little silly to me. I've been a JD fan since just after he won his first OSL, he is the person that made me discover esports and the person that makes me still care about it. I'm just not delusional about his abilities. | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On February 27 2014 22:46 SC2Toastie wrote: Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers... They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much. I never mentioned Arthur because he has shown some impressive displays in the past and in case you did not watch yesterday he did not actually play vs JD. I was talking about Has and I gave a fairly blunt but accurate description and never actually said he is not a good player. | ||
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:42 Nebuchad wrote: I try to always draw the same line: I have no problem with being sad that someone lost, I have a problem with being sad that someone won. I have no problem with being happy that someone won, I have a problem with being happy that someone lost. It's a thin line, I can't say for sure that I have never crossed it myself, but I try to hold to it. Only way to never disrespect players, in my mind. Being happy about a player losing can be okay-ish if that's for a good reason (justice in Proleague is an example :D) Other than that, I fully agree. Fans sadness about a player's loss is completely okay (and no problem about that). The problems arise when fans lose their common sense and blame anything except the player's skill. To these, I want to say "It's okay, it's not a single loss that will make him go from being very good to being very bad". It happens, and it's no big deal. It's a big deal (i.e. people can start call a player "bad") when the bad days are the trend and the good days the exceptions. | ||
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The_Darkness
United States910 Posts
Against Bomber, maybe he has a mental hang up. He seems to lose every engagement badly. I'm actually curious -- why did he lose so badly? Playing mine-less can get you in trouble. I feel like Scarlett handles this style much better. Was JD's muta count too low? Should he have focused more on banelings? Should he have countered when Bomber went for his fourth? | ||
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XaCez
Sweden6991 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:12 jakethesnake wrote: So, according to my math: 1765 people voted (# of votes/2) 1732 voted for JD (or only 33 didn't vote for JD) At most, only 33 people of 1765 or 1.9% of people could have gotten it correct (assuming best case scenario here). I am the 1.9 %. | ||
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caznitch
Canada645 Posts
I missed the JD vs. Has series so I can't comment. I find it funny the different reaction to these toss cheeses as opposed to Maru's 11/11 cheese which was his code S life on the line. Cheese is what makes SC great! | ||
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On February 28 2014 01:07 caznitch wrote: I don't understand the hate for these series. I loved the Bomber vs. Has cheese as it displayed Bomber's great decision making. It's at points like this that display player skill above simply following predefined builds. I wouldn't want to see these games 100% of the time, just like I wouldn't want to see 20 min macro snooze fests 100% of the time. I missed the JD vs. Has series so I can't comment. I find it funny the different reaction to these toss cheeses as opposed to Maru's 11/11 cheese which was his code S life on the line. Cheese is what makes SC great! No game will be as embarassing for a player than the proxy rax from Happy versus the 3 hatch before pool from Life, where Life won. And btw, if Cheese was so good, players would use it every single game. Apparently, it's not, and is at its right place now: a high risk high reward strategy. Bomber showed he doesn't give a fuck about Has cheeses  | ||
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Squat
Sweden7978 Posts
On February 28 2014 01:04 The_Darkness wrote: Disappointed by the JD games although the cannon-cheese was kind of fun, just because I'd never seen it before. I don't understand why JD wouldn't play safe against a player he wasn't familiar with. In the DT game he saw how late the nexus was (relative to a one-gate, one-gas fast expand), saw that there weren't any units out, saw double gas and I believe was able to click on the extractors, saw no tech, saw no MSC and yet still didn't bother to put a spore down around 6:30. Why wouldn't he at least be worried about some sort of aggressive stargate play? He even scouted again pre-7:00 and only saw one sentry. How could he not wonder where all of that gas went? Maybe he's playing a bit too robotically. Against Bomber, maybe he has a mental hang up. He seems to lose every engagement badly. I'm actually curious -- why did he lose so badly? Playing mine-less can get you in trouble. I feel like Scarlett handles this style much better. Was JD's muta count too low? Should he have focused more on banelings? Should he have countered when Bomber went for his fourth? He is over-aggressive, lacks patience and fights way too much off creep. Also his muta retention is really poor, some of the worst I've seen at that level of play. He tends to just slam them into bio balls, which means he has to spend thousands of gas on rebuilding mutas, leaving him with far too few banes and stopping him from teching in a timely manner. He also makes units that produce no ROI when he should be making drones. It has nothing to do with Bomber per say, he is just good enough to mercilessly exploit these shortcomings. JD lost to Dayshi recently. It's strange how he under-performs in so many different aspects of the MU. And btw, if Cheese was so good, players would use it every single game. Apparently, it's not, and is at its right place now: a high risk high reward strategy. That's how it should be. Right now it is out of whack for protoss, the reward part is too big and the risk part is too small. | ||
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looken
727 Posts
now you can of course say "that's how the game is, deal with it" but you see, viewers don't depend on starcraft, but starcraft depends on viewers. so maybe we should finally stop the "everything is fine, just ignore the whiners" BS and start taking things serious. because, to be honest, i think i'm a pretty average SC2 consumer. i'm to busy to actually play the game a lot, so i'm on a pretty bad lvl (plat, if you must know) but i still enjoy watching it. but lately, my interest for starcraft drops drastically whenever i know its gonna be a lot of PvX. it's not because i hate protoss or protoss players or whatever, it's just that i grew tiered of seeing the same games over and over again. so far i'm still sticking around and tune in most of the times, but i don't know for how long that will stay the same, if the game does not evolve away from that abusive style we see right now. so i guess what i'm trying to say is that i feel like i'm a pretty good representative of the average viewer this scene needs to sustain itself. and lately i'm loosing interest in the game. and that's pretty bad, because if i actually am a good representative of the average viewers, a lot of them feel the same. and a lot of ppl losing interest in SC2 would obviously be pretty bad. | ||
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Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On February 28 2014 01:16 Squat wrote: That's how it should be. Right now it is out of whack for protoss, the reward part is too big and the risk part is too small. Well, considering the games from Polt @ IEM Cologne, I'd say there's still room for improvement for player to train to defend against toss cheeses. Indeed, it seems to be the case. But I strongly reconsidered that when I saw Polt beating Rain on Yeonsu vs Blink...... (not to say it's necessary a dead strategy now, Polt being really good doesn't help, but it clearly showed that there are ways that haven't been explored yet...) | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5296 Posts
i watched their 0 - 2 then went to sleep having really low expectations for JD to make it out of the group. | ||
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