World Championship Series 2014 continued its unpredictable start as EG.Jaedong suffered a shock elimination in the Ro32 of WCS America. Despite being the second place finisher in the 2013 season of WCS, Jaedong found himself laid low by all-ins from Taiwanese player Yoe.Has.
Having started off the group by suffering a 0-2 defeat at the hands of Bomber, Jaedong was expected to easily topple WCS newcomer Has in the loser's match. However, a dark templar rush in game two, followed by a creative cannon rush in game three saw Jaedong eliminated 2-1 in one of WCS's biggest upsets.
Jaedong's elimination was not the only surprise in the group as the little-known Korean Protoss ESC.Arthur claimed an unlikely first place finish. After defeating Has in his first match of the night, Arthur was able to take out RedBull_Bomber 2-1 in the winner's match. Though Arthur's 2-base blink all-in was deflected in game one, a 1-base variation allowed him to tie up the series in game two. Arthur then closed out the series in game three with yet another all-in, expanding to Habitation Station's gold base before overpowering Bomber with a horde of gateway units.
Bomber had to face yet more all-ins in the final match of the night as Has threw several proxy-building rushes his way. However, Has' execution and micro left much to be desired compared to Arthur, and Bomber was able take a 2-0 victory to book his spot in the Ro16.
Players Qualified for Ro16: Protoss (3): Alicia, Oz, Arthur Terran (2): Heart, Bomber Zerg (3): TooDming, HyuN, Revival
RedBull_Bomber. That'll take some time to get used to :/ Not surprised by Arthur, he's been one of the best faceless Koreans ever since Slayers started crumbling. Gratz!
On February 27 2014 16:03 GreenFate wrote: Ahah looks like both JD and Bomber spent the night trying to handle protoss all-ins
Yeah this must be so frustrating as a progamer to try to guess what the protoss will execute to kill you... All ins are so tight nowadays, one tiny mistake and you are dead.
Just wondering, is there a reason why TL decided to start showing spoilers on the front page? I know that it's been like this for a while, but who thought that it would be a good idea and why?
On February 27 2014 16:57 Tipany wrote: Just wondering, is there a reason why TL decided to start showing spoilers on the front page? I know that it's been like this for a while, but who thought that it would be a good idea and why?
On February 27 2014 16:57 AxiomBlurr wrote: JD deserved the loss...he has not the been the 'Killer' he was a few months back...full to credit to Arthur and Bomber....and Has did play well too!
he deserved this loss because he hasn't been as beastly as he was a few months back? lolwut?
Has really should have won both his games against Bomber. His plans should have been deadly, but his all thumbs micro lost him the matches. If a more experienced protoss had been in his place, Bomber wouldn't have stood a chance.
On February 27 2014 17:40 Furikawari wrote: Just get rid of all protoss al in possibilites. As a zerg I dream to have only half of them (well, not really, I hate this kind of play, but still).
On February 27 2014 18:08 AaronChance wrote: Has really should have won both his games against Bomber. His plans should have been deadly, but his all thumbs micro lost him the matches. If a more experienced protoss had been in his place, Bomber wouldn't have stood a chance.
Why shut down all all-in-possibilities? As you can easily see an all-in is not a free win. If the terran or zerg opponent is strong enough the attack can be repelled.
On February 27 2014 17:40 Furikawari wrote: Just get rid of all protoss al in possibilites. As a zerg I dream to have only half of them (well, not really, I hate this kind of play, but still).
On February 27 2014 18:08 AaronChance wrote: Has really should have won both his games against Bomber. His plans should have been deadly, but his all thumbs micro lost him the matches. If a more experienced protoss had been in his place, Bomber wouldn't have stood a chance.
Why shut down all all-in-possibilities? As you can easily see an all-in is not a free win. If the terran or zerg opponent is strong enough the attack can be repelled.
Give other races the same possibilities then. It was no near good play, just random cheese that if you want to prevent each games, you'll get behind. Like protoss has difficulties once they are ahead.
Two things are boring: only one race can afford this kind of "play" and it's really not interesting to watch game like this. If I want to see good gambling I watch poker.
On February 27 2014 17:40 Furikawari wrote: Just get rid of all protoss al in possibilites. As a zerg I dream to have only half of them (well, not really, I hate this kind of play, but still).
On February 27 2014 18:08 AaronChance wrote: Has really should have won both his games against Bomber. His plans should have been deadly, but his all thumbs micro lost him the matches. If a more experienced protoss had been in his place, Bomber wouldn't have stood a chance.
Why shut down all all-in-possibilities? As you can easily see an all-in is not a free win. If the terran or zerg opponent is strong enough the attack can be repelled.
Give other races the same possibilities then. It was no near good play, just random cheese that if you want to prevent each games, you'll get behind. Like protoss has difficulties once they are ahead.
Two things are boring: only one race can afford this kind of "play" and it's really not interesting to watch game like this. If I want to see good gambling I watch poker.
The all-in opportunities difference between races is ok. God dammit stop trying to make every races look the same in a by-design asymmetrical game.
The only point of concern people could have with protoss is that many dangerous opener looks the same yet require very different reactions from the other player (hell, even in the PvP match-up), like say a PvT blink opener vs a fast zealot archon timing (well, for the sake of an example, I don't really know if fast zealot archon timing is even a thing, I just lose to it on the ladder )
Has won't go far if he thinks he can cheese his way to the top. It only works when people don't expect it. Obviously I'm butthurt that my favourite player went out like this. A relatively new cheese to watch out for isn't exactly out-skilling your opponent. #ZergTears
You can't kill protoss (*clicks on nexus) in the early game though protoss can kill you with so many silly cheeses and allins. O and let's not forgot that a toss deathball can melt away 50 supply in just 2 seconds. If protoss is so strong from the start then why not fix the lategame, because even lategame army handling is much easier for protoss.
This happens way to often. --> really difficult to hold allin gets repelled --> no worries wasn't allin at all, protoss doesn't have allins in hots --> continue's to roll the opponent in the lategame.
No other race can pull this stuff off..........
I don't even get why some people only play straight up with toss while they could easily boost their winrates by resorting to doing this stuff. It's so ridiculously strong on top of having such a powerful lategame. Has is actually bad (check his army control) but he still manages to eliminate Jaedong through coin flips lolwhut? Luckily Bomber served justice.
I think if blizzard wants to keep toss like this, they should also change how the lategame works.
The all-in opportunities difference between races is ok. God dammit stop trying to make every races look the same in a by-design asymmetrical game.
The only point of concern people could have with protoss is that many dangerous opener looks the same yet require very different reactions from the other player (hell, even in the PvP match-up), like say a PvT blink opener vs a fast zealot archon timing (well, for the sake of an example, I don't really know if fast zealot archon timing is even a thing, I just lose to it on the ladder )
Assymetrical doesnt mean unfair. Assymetrical doesnt mean spoil all fun to other races. Currently protoss has so many openers and so many ways to hide them it's just not fair.
Oh, and btw, is anyone able to quantify the number of viewers lost because a random protoss cheesed his way to RO16? On IEM stream lot of people came just to see the "BW bonjwa".
What makes me sad is that the first PvP didn't seem like a pro game at all. Neither Has nor Arthur really were impressive, they just somehow won some games. If you're going to drop Jaedong at least show some skill so I can root for you in the ro16 instead.
The all-in opportunities difference between races is ok. God dammit stop trying to make every races look the same in a by-design asymmetrical game.
The only point of concern people could have with protoss is that many dangerous opener looks the same yet require very different reactions from the other player (hell, even in the PvP match-up), like say a PvT blink opener vs a fast zealot archon timing (well, for the sake of an example, I don't really know if fast zealot archon timing is even a thing, I just lose to it on the ladder )
Assymetrical doesnt mean unfair. Assymetrical doesnt mean spoil all fun to other races. Currently protoss has so many openers and so many ways to hide them it's just not fair.
Oh, and btw, is anyone able to quantify the number of viewers lost because a random protoss cheesed his way to RO16? On IEM stream lot of people came just to see the "BW bonjwa".
I see what you did there, lol!
be that as it may, yeah the game may be asymmetrical, but the element of fun is probably what gets people the most. So it's not just balance whining i guess, it's more design complaints. Maybe that should be the new Meta of whining? So Balance or Game Design (ie protoss) whining allowed anymore. Also, maybe next after that, there could be a labeling system that uses stars to designate certain people
On February 27 2014 19:28 TaShadan wrote: JD got allined? AWESOME!
Not just once! But 3 times in a row! True story, you can't deny that!
To be expected from Protoss scrubs. Cant win straight up because you opponent is superior in skill and pretty much everything else? Play protoss and pick one of bajilion all ins and suddenly you can compete with world best! You failed the all in, just turtle behind pf nexus and drag it to late game where your opponent has to be much better than you to stay even with your a move and storms.
The all-in opportunities difference between races is ok. God dammit stop trying to make every races look the same in a by-design asymmetrical game.
The only point of concern people could have with protoss is that many dangerous opener looks the same yet require very different reactions from the other player (hell, even in the PvP match-up), like say a PvT blink opener vs a fast zealot archon timing (well, for the sake of an example, I don't really know if fast zealot archon timing is even a thing, I just lose to it on the ladder )
Assymetrical doesnt mean unfair. Assymetrical doesnt mean spoil all fun to other races. Currently protoss has so many openers and so many ways to hide them it's just not fair.
Oh, and btw, is anyone able to quantify the number of viewers lost because a random protoss cheesed his way to RO16? On IEM stream lot of people came just to see the "BW bonjwa".
I see what you did there, lol!
be that as it may, yeah the game may be asymmetrical, but the element of fun is probably what gets people the most. So it's not just balance whining i guess, it's more design complaints. Maybe that should be the new Meta of whining? So Balance or Game Design (ie protoss) whining allowed anymore. Also, maybe next after that, there could be a labeling system that uses stars to designate certain people
We're like 5 years past the phase design whining started.
Just look at warpgate, Forcefield, Mothershitcore, Fungal, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, Roaches, Collosi, Immortals, Hellbats, Corruptors, Overseers, Void Rays, broken economy, etcetera, etcetera. All of these things have one of multiple problems with them which are all flaws by design and were predictable.
The all-in opportunities difference between races is ok. God dammit stop trying to make every races look the same in a by-design asymmetrical game.
The only point of concern people could have with protoss is that many dangerous opener looks the same yet require very different reactions from the other player (hell, even in the PvP match-up), like say a PvT blink opener vs a fast zealot archon timing (well, for the sake of an example, I don't really know if fast zealot archon timing is even a thing, I just lose to it on the ladder )
Assymetrical doesnt mean unfair. Assymetrical doesnt mean spoil all fun to other races. Currently protoss has so many openers and so many ways to hide them it's just not fair.
Oh, and btw, is anyone able to quantify the number of viewers lost because a random protoss cheesed his way to RO16? On IEM stream lot of people came just to see the "BW bonjwa".
I see what you did there, lol!
be that as it may, yeah the game may be asymmetrical, but the element of fun is probably what gets people the most. So it's not just balance whining i guess, it's more design complaints. Maybe that should be the new Meta of whining? So Balance or Game Design (ie protoss) whining allowed anymore. Also, maybe next after that, there could be a labeling system that uses stars to designate certain people
We're like 5 years past the phase design whining started.
Just look at warpgate, Forcefield, Mothershitcore, Fungal, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, Roaches, Collosi, Immortals, Hellbats, Corruptors, Overseers, Void Rays, broken economy, etcetera, etcetera. All of these things have one of multiple problems with them which are all flaws by design and were predictable.
In some way you can link all of this to the bad economy design.
The all-in opportunities difference between races is ok. God dammit stop trying to make every races look the same in a by-design asymmetrical game.
The only point of concern people could have with protoss is that many dangerous opener looks the same yet require very different reactions from the other player (hell, even in the PvP match-up), like say a PvT blink opener vs a fast zealot archon timing (well, for the sake of an example, I don't really know if fast zealot archon timing is even a thing, I just lose to it on the ladder )
Assymetrical doesnt mean unfair. Assymetrical doesnt mean spoil all fun to other races. Currently protoss has so many openers and so many ways to hide them it's just not fair.
Oh, and btw, is anyone able to quantify the number of viewers lost because a random protoss cheesed his way to RO16? On IEM stream lot of people came just to see the "BW bonjwa".
I see what you did there, lol!
be that as it may, yeah the game may be asymmetrical, but the element of fun is probably what gets people the most. So it's not just balance whining i guess, it's more design complaints. Maybe that should be the new Meta of whining? So Balance or Game Design (ie protoss) whining allowed anymore. Also, maybe next after that, there could be a labeling system that uses stars to designate certain people
We're like 5 years past the phase design whining started.
Just look at warpgate, Forcefield, Mothershitcore, Fungal, Swarm Hosts, Hellbats, Roaches, Collosi, Immortals, Hellbats, Corruptors, Overseers, Void Rays, broken economy, etcetera, etcetera. All of these things have one of multiple problems with them which are all flaws by design and were predictable.
In some way you can link all of this to the bad economy design.
No, not really. Some units are just bland, stupid, unmicroable. Some abilities have no place in an RTS. Some things break the most basic rules of defenders advantage or taking risks in an RTS.
Good thing I didn't stay up for this, I'd have been both annoyed and disgusted, also looks like the LR thread turned into quite the war zone. At least Bomber pulled trough somehow.
I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
I am just glad I didnt stay awake for this WCS AM, sometime when big players did play (Like JD and Bomber) I would stay awake, but for this one, I glad I went to sleep, it would frustrate me too much.
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
That is a good point. As a protoss player, what units and strats do I get to play that won't get me in trouble with my opponent?
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
That is a good point. As a protoss player, what units and strats do I get to play that won't get me in trouble with my opponent?
None. Welcome to zergs world during the patch Zerg era. Even if you're good, it doesn't matter because of the race you play.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
That is a good point. As a protoss player, what units and strats do I get to play that won't get me in trouble with my opponent?
None. Welcome to zergs world during the patch Zerg era. Even if you're good, it doesn't matter because of the race you play.
Sadly, yes.
I cannot name you a build that won't get you in trouble. Everything -feels- OP because of the economic hit you take for having to rule out all possibilities of all ins and have precautions in place.
In patchzerg era, nobody complained about MLB, only about Ling Infestor into trollolol.
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Overall, a boring WCS AM group that wasn't worth watching, regardless of all the balance whine that's going on. If you feel like being the worse player, but you're feeling pretty good about allins - hell, go for it. Just don't cry when fans rage on you (and I'm a fan and hate Arthur now)
On February 27 2014 21:27 boxerfred wrote: Overall, a boring WCS AM group that wasn't worth watching, regardless of all the balance whine that's going on. If you feel like being the worse player, but you're feeling pretty good about allins - hell, go for it. Just don't cry when fans rage on you (and I'm a fan and hate Arthur now)
This is mostly cummulated frustration about how people feel XvP plays out nowadays that comes out because a huge fan favorite lost to a selection out of everything gimmicky you could possibly think of
However, I believe if only the patch about blink stalker(mothership core precisely) released today instead of tomorrow...things would be totally different.
Arthur has constantly been a korean GM top 10 on ladder while been teamless for a lot of time, plus he had all the VODs he needed to do some research! Actually it would have been an upset if he hadn't make it through.
"Jaedong's elimination was not the only surprise in the group as the little-known Korean Protoss (P)ESC.Arthur claimed an unlikely first place finish." I have heard Artosis saying that Arthur is very good and very talented even back then when he as in Slayers
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
Nothing.
It does however make for better display in skills and usually has the better player win. Some all ins is fine, but the sheer amount and strenght of every combination of Protoss stuff (and the over 50% presence of P in televised matches) annoys people to no end. There's very few tricks like Protoss has a Zerg can pull off, and I don't think Terran has any hard to scout but highly lethal all ins .
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
It's not moral, it's a game. They are just BAD games, which shouldn't be celebrated as the acme of sc2 skill or entertainment. ( I recognize the Meta needs them, I'm just saying they should not be standard.)
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
Nothing.
It does however make for better display in skills and usually has the better player win. Some all ins is fine, but the sheer amount and strenght of every combination of Protoss stuff (and the over 50% presence of P in televised matches) annoys people to no end. There's very few tricks like Protoss has a Zerg can pull off, and I don't think Terran has any hard to scout but highly lethal all ins .
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers...
They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 21:03 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:51 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:48 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:35 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
People are going to be miffed. They should be.
It should be well known that I hate balance whining and people complaining that their favorite player was elimited in a fashion they didn't approve of. I have always admired JD and Flash for how they discuss their losses, focusing on what they can change.
And a win is a win is a win, 6 pool or 40 minute macro game. JD was having an off night and he might have won against those all ins if he wasn't.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers...
They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much.
True, but those types of games don't demonstrate that. Which is why I qualified with 'a pattern'
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 21:03 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:51 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:48 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:35 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
People are going to be miffed. They should be.
Did you just compare HerO's win over JD to the Has build?
I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
A game in which race X 100% beats race Y is also asymmetrical, the question is, how much asymetricallity (????) do we want?
People complain about how Protoss has the best options early game, is about even midgame, and ahead lategame. That's not how it is, but how it -feels- to the people.
Jeadongs loss is just another one that hightens the frustration
On February 27 2014 23:02 Rainmansc wrote: Ragnarork TvZ is a fun matchup. The problems are the P matchups...
TvP is fine to watch, no matter the balance for this match up (and I can say I'm frustrated sometimes as a Terran player, but frustration comes mostly from me playing bad and not having adapted from WoL TvP that much). I always find entertaining bioball kiting, spreading, templar flanks, vikings trying to pick off colossi, the battles on low (< 50) supplies from both parties, medivac emergency pick-ups, etc, etc, etc.
PvP I don't understand anything at this MU but find it quite enjoyable to watch (at least way more than back in WoL, for sure), esp. because of the many openers and awkward situations that can arise.
ZvP is the most problematic match up for me to rank. I don't really like SwarmHosts vs Deathball, but that's all, otherwise I like the games quite well.
So, yeah. Funny is, as for many things, completely relativistic and saying "TvZ is fun, P matchups are problematic" is kind of dependent on what you like or not. I think many people who don't like these match-ups don't play protoss and feel frustrated when they lose on the ladder vs protoss (I'm sometimes tempted, but as time passes, I learned to cool down before saying something out of frustration), and think they can't do anything against it. While I recognize that, notably, for the lowest leagues (and I'm in gold, so yeah), it may be a bit easier to protoss in these match-ups, that still doesn't mean shit about the level of entertainment.
Oh, and there's also the players. TvZ can be interesting, or can be awful, depending on how the game turns out and how the players play (I heard Reality vs Soulkey hasn't a very good reputation).
So yeah, no, the problem is mostly with the people rather than with the match-ups themselves in terms of entertainment. Balance-wise, it may be a whole different story, but I won't talk about it, a smarter fellow would immediately put myself back in my place, amongst those who shouldn't talk about balance (No TheDwf, I'm not looking at you )
On February 27 2014 23:20 SC2Toastie wrote: A game in which race X 100% beats race Y is also asymmetrical, the question is, how much asymetricallity (????) do we want?
People complain about how Protoss has the best options early game, is about even midgame, and ahead lategame. That's not how it is, but how it -feels- to the people.
Jeadongs loss is just another one that hightens the frustration
Asymmetry can be considered independently from balance. If race X has 10 options, race Y only 5 which are different, works differently, has weaknesses and strength different from the other, etc, etc etc. Still fine. Balance intervenes later in the process, when we consider the options themselves and ask ourselves "Can the other race counter/react to this and how?", and surely not"Can the other race do the same?".
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Edit: that is just a really shitty argument. Have you ever noticed how power ranks don't include head-to-head, in the aggregate of games not the result of a single one. That's because there's some way of analyzing skill apart from a single series or match.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes?
JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Edit: that is just a really shitty argument. Have you ever noticed how power ranks don't include head-to-head, in the aggregate of games not the result of a single one. That's because there's some way of analyzing skill apart from a single series or match.
You just said a single series or match doesn't matter on its own, alone. Don't worry, JD still has better stats than Has. And we're not denying that. But saying "The better player didn't win" is a complete nonsense.
He still lost this series, and Has won it. Period. Statistics are just a way to say "There's more chance than for a huge number of matches, the tendancy should be this or that".
Fans have the right to be sad, but they should also learn to respect the player that beat their favorite. Damn how hard can it be?
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes?
JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but man, that horse of yours is huge 0.0
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes?
JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
Your analogy and logic combine doesn't make any sense. A poker player can make the dumbest moves in one day and still win cause he hits the right cards, does that make him the better player on that day? According to you, yes.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes?
JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
Your analogy and logic combine doesn't make any sense. A poker player can make the dumbest moves in one day and still win cause he hits the right cards, does that make him the better player on that day? According to you, yes.
A lot of poker players say they are in control of the game flow and if they win or lose. The same with Magic players are the pro level. SC2 is not so random that it prohibits the best player from winning due to random chance.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes?
JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
Your analogy and logic combine doesn't make any sense. A poker player can make the dumbest moves in one day and still win cause he hits the right cards, does that make him the better player on that day? According to you, yes.
Yours doesn't. A dumb move that makes him win thanks to hitting the right cards? He won't win ANYTHING from a very good player. What he's saying is that you can't just chip in the notion of "Better player" to say who SHOULD win.
That just doesn't work. If that would, we would have a static world ranking with the same person always #1, the same #2, etc etc. Because the "better player" would win every time. That's not how it, obvioulsy enough, works.
Upsets wouldn't be possible, games results would be known in advance and it would be completely boring. That's why we play the games in the first place: because it's not a guarantee that the player who've won the most, in the past, of these two, will actually win.
There are player who are very inconsistent (e.g. Bomber, Jaedong), that can beat anyone on a good day, and lose to a way less skilled player on a bad day. At that time, they're "the better player" if they win, and not if they lose, on that single day. But using this wording is wrong from the start.
On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote: I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month.
On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote: I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake.
In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness.
Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with.
It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this.
Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet.
Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine.
Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them.
On February 27 2014 21:03 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:51 Plansix wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:48 Mikku wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:35 SC2Toastie wrote:
On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote: I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it.
What is not atm..?
The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw.
Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times.
Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player.
As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to.
Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive.
People are going to be miffed. They should be.
Asking Plansix to chill with the self-righteousness is kind like asking water not to be wet. It's just who he is.
The games were bad, JD played poorly and protoss is stupid, not sure what other conclusions to draw. I figured JD was going out here since his play in 2014 has been rather bad overall. Cool Bomber made it, I hope he wins the whole thing.
On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote: I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month.
His TvZ looked crisper at least.
Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.
On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote: I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month.
His TvZ looked crisper at least.
Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.
His ZvT is bad. His openers are too risky and he doesn't scout against protoss. If he survives the early game he can often just bludgeon the protoss with mechanics, but it's a rather fragile strategy.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Then it doesn't really matter who the better player is in a real setting. You know how some koreans are massively good in the practice house and destroy everyone, but then they get to play in the spotlight and they fall apart cause they get nervous? You could say their opponents are winning but they're still the better player. Except no one says that, cause it doesn't matter what you're capable of doing, it just matters what you actually do. We play tournaments to see who wins that specific game on that specific day, not to see who is the better player based on preconceived stuff.
On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote: I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month.
His TvZ looked crisper at least.
Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.
His ZvT is bad. His openers are too risky and he doesn't scout against protoss. If he survives the early game he can often just bludgeon the protoss with mechanics, but it's a rather fragile strategy.
Good enough?
I was more thinking about something along the line of "Jaedong has mistaken his match again Has for a Grand Finals". But fair enough (Your sig does not reflect enough that you're JD #1 though... , and I don't see you in the list )
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Then it doesn't really matter who the better player is in a real setting. You know how some koreans are massively good in the practice house and destroy everyone, but then they get to play in the spotlight and they fall apart cause they get nervous? You could say their opponents are winning but they're still the better player. Except no one says that, cause it doesn't matter what you're capable of doing, it just matters what you actually do. We play tournaments to see who wins that specific game on that specific day, not to see who is the better player based on preconceived stuff.
You are arguing against yourself. I'm not saying JD should have won. I was just stating that he is he better player so he should win MOST the time. Him losing one series doesn't make him a worst player overall, nor does it make Has a better player overall.
If JD and I played 100000 independent games(ie no learning in between) , I'd eventually win two in a row. That simply doesn't make me better.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win".
Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series.
And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion.
And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done.
Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Edit: that is just a really shitty argument. Have you ever noticed how power ranks don't include head-to-head, in the aggregate of games not the result of a single one. That's because there's some way of analyzing skill apart from a single series or match.
You just said a single series or match doesn't matter on its own, alone. Don't worry, JD still has better stats than Has. And we're not denying that. But saying "The better player didn't win" is a complete nonsense.
He still lost this series, and Has won it. Period. Statistics are just a way to say "There's more chance than for a huge number of matches, the tendancy should be this or that".
Fans have the right to be sad, but they should also learn to respect the player that beat their favorite. Damn how hard can it be?
Wait, A. I do respect Has B. his strategies were lame, not bad, but lame.
I'm still sad because now we can't see JD's potential later games, nor a much better rematch vs. bomber than that snoozefest that was 'Bomber holds cheese yet again!'
On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote: If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are?
Soccer riots are pretty harsh. And I've mocked some Yankees fans pretty hard when their team knocked out. And people who blame the refs for their teams loss are openly mocked.
On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote: If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are?
I try to always draw the same line: I have no problem with being sad that someone lost, I have a problem with being sad that someone won. I have no problem with being happy that someone won, I have a problem with being happy that someone lost.
It's a thin line, I can't say for sure that I have never crossed it myself, but I try to hold to it. Only way to never disrespect players, in my mind.
On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote: I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month.
His TvZ looked crisper at least.
Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.
His ZvT is bad. His openers are too risky and he doesn't scout against protoss. If he survives the early game he can often just bludgeon the protoss with mechanics, but it's a rather fragile strategy.
Good enough?
I was more thinking about something along the line of "Jaedong has mistaken his match again Has for a Grand Finals". But fair enough (Your sig does not reflect enough that you're JD #1 though... , and I don't see you in the list )
I'm not a part of any fanclub and I don't really put my favorite players in my sig, it just seems a little silly to me.
I've been a JD fan since just after he won his first OSL, he is the person that made me discover esports and the person that makes me still care about it. I'm just not delusional about his abilities.
On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote: Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion.
It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'.
Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.
It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game.
Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all.
What makes standard play morally superior to cheese?
I don't think it is about the strats necessarily, but more who is executing them. Has is like your typical high ranked Toss ladder cheeser and to see him knock out people of JD's level in a tournament setting is not exactly the kind of thing too many sc2 fans want to be seeing.
Honestly, I'm sure it's not what David Kim wants either. A pattern of such results would make his game look trivial
Has and Arthur are not your average highly ranked Protoss ladder cheesers...
They're very good players, not on the level of Bomber and JD, the problem is that doesn't really matter too much.
I never mentioned Arthur because he has shown some impressive displays in the past and in case you did not watch yesterday he did not actually play vs JD. I was talking about Has and I gave a fairly blunt but accurate description and never actually said he is not a good player.
On February 28 2014 00:35 tili wrote: If a football fan is mad/sad after a game, no one demands they secede their emotions instantly. Why are we so harsh on sc2 fans who are?
I try to always draw the same line: I have no problem with being sad that someone lost, I have a problem with being sad that someone won. I have no problem with being happy that someone won, I have a problem with being happy that someone lost.
It's a thin line, I can't say for sure that I have never crossed it myself, but I try to hold to it. Only way to never disrespect players, in my mind.
Being happy about a player losing can be okay-ish if that's for a good reason (justice in Proleague is an example :D)
Other than that, I fully agree. Fans sadness about a player's loss is completely okay (and no problem about that). The problems arise when fans lose their common sense and blame anything except the player's skill. To these, I want to say "It's okay, it's not a single loss that will make him go from being very good to being very bad". It happens, and it's no big deal. It's a big deal (i.e. people can start call a player "bad") when the bad days are the trend and the good days the exceptions.
Disappointed by the JD games although the cannon-cheese was kind of fun, just because I'd never seen it before. I don't understand why JD wouldn't play safe against a player he wasn't familiar with. In the DT game he saw how late the nexus was (relative to a one-gate, one-gas fast expand), saw that there weren't any units out, saw double gas and I believe was able to click on the extractors, saw no tech, saw no MSC and yet still didn't bother to put a spore down around 6:30. Why wouldn't he at least be worried about some sort of aggressive stargate play? He even scouted again pre-7:00 and only saw one sentry. How could he not wonder where all of that gas went? Maybe he's playing a bit too robotically.
Against Bomber, maybe he has a mental hang up. He seems to lose every engagement badly. I'm actually curious -- why did he lose so badly? Playing mine-less can get you in trouble. I feel like Scarlett handles this style much better. Was JD's muta count too low? Should he have focused more on banelings? Should he have countered when Bomber went for his fourth?
I don't understand the hate for these series. I loved the Bomber vs. Has cheese as it displayed Bomber's great decision making. It's at points like this that display player skill above simply following predefined builds. I wouldn't want to see these games 100% of the time, just like I wouldn't want to see 20 min macro snooze fests 100% of the time.
I missed the JD vs. Has series so I can't comment.
I find it funny the different reaction to these toss cheeses as opposed to Maru's 11/11 cheese which was his code S life on the line. Cheese is what makes SC great!
On February 28 2014 01:07 caznitch wrote: I don't understand the hate for these series. I loved the Bomber vs. Has cheese as it displayed Bomber's great decision making. It's at points like this that display player skill above simply following predefined builds. I wouldn't want to see these games 100% of the time, just like I wouldn't want to see 20 min macro snooze fests 100% of the time.
I missed the JD vs. Has series so I can't comment.
I find it funny the different reaction to these toss cheeses as opposed to Maru's 11/11 cheese which was his code S life on the line. Cheese is what makes SC great!
No game will be as embarassing for a player than the proxy rax from Happy versus the 3 hatch before pool from Life, where Life won.
And btw, if Cheese was so good, players would use it every single game. Apparently, it's not, and is at its right place now: a high risk high reward strategy.
Bomber showed he doesn't give a fuck about Has cheeses
On February 28 2014 01:04 The_Darkness wrote: Disappointed by the JD games although the cannon-cheese was kind of fun, just because I'd never seen it before. I don't understand why JD wouldn't play safe against a player he wasn't familiar with. In the DT game he saw how late the nexus was (relative to a one-gate, one-gas fast expand), saw that there weren't any units out, saw double gas and I believe was able to click on the extractors, saw no tech, saw no MSC and yet still didn't bother to put a spore down around 6:30. Why wouldn't he at least be worried about some sort of aggressive stargate play? He even scouted again pre-7:00 and only saw one sentry. How could he not wonder where all of that gas went? Maybe he's playing a bit too robotically.
Against Bomber, maybe he has a mental hang up. He seems to lose every engagement badly. I'm actually curious -- why did he lose so badly? Playing mine-less can get you in trouble. I feel like Scarlett handles this style much better. Was JD's muta count too low? Should he have focused more on banelings? Should he have countered when Bomber went for his fourth?
He is over-aggressive, lacks patience and fights way too much off creep. Also his muta retention is really poor, some of the worst I've seen at that level of play. He tends to just slam them into bio balls, which means he has to spend thousands of gas on rebuilding mutas, leaving him with far too few banes and stopping him from teching in a timely manner. He also makes units that produce no ROI when he should be making drones.
It has nothing to do with Bomber per say, he is just good enough to mercilessly exploit these shortcomings. JD lost to Dayshi recently. It's strange how he under-performs in so many different aspects of the MU.
And btw, if Cheese was so good, players would use it every single game. Apparently, it's not, and is at its right place now: a high risk high reward strategy.
That's how it should be. Right now it is out of whack for protoss, the reward part is too big and the risk part is too small.
i dont think you get the reason for all the frustration ragnarork. yeah part of it surly is because JD is a huge fan favorite and he just lost. but i think most ppl are upset because it was yet another night of all in after all in after all in. it's just getting boring. and it happens in way too many games that involve protoss these days. it's just not fun to watch any more (i'm sure it is to some viewers, but as you can see from the reactions whenever a player gets knocked out by a protoss all in, most ppl seem to dislike that play style.)
now you can of course say "that's how the game is, deal with it" but you see, viewers don't depend on starcraft, but starcraft depends on viewers. so maybe we should finally stop the "everything is fine, just ignore the whiners" BS and start taking things serious. because, to be honest, i think i'm a pretty average SC2 consumer. i'm to busy to actually play the game a lot, so i'm on a pretty bad lvl (plat, if you must know) but i still enjoy watching it. but lately, my interest for starcraft drops drastically whenever i know its gonna be a lot of PvX. it's not because i hate protoss or protoss players or whatever, it's just that i grew tiered of seeing the same games over and over again. so far i'm still sticking around and tune in most of the times, but i don't know for how long that will stay the same, if the game does not evolve away from that abusive style we see right now.
so i guess what i'm trying to say is that i feel like i'm a pretty good representative of the average viewer this scene needs to sustain itself. and lately i'm loosing interest in the game. and that's pretty bad, because if i actually am a good representative of the average viewers, a lot of them feel the same. and a lot of ppl losing interest in SC2 would obviously be pretty bad.
On February 28 2014 01:16 Squat wrote: That's how it should be. Right now it is out of whack for protoss, the reward part is too big and the risk part is too small.
Well, considering the games from Polt @ IEM Cologne, I'd say there's still room for improvement for player to train to defend against toss cheeses. Indeed, it seems to be the case. But I strongly reconsidered that when I saw Polt beating Rain on Yeonsu vs Blink...... (not to say it's necessary a dead strategy now, Polt being really good doesn't help, but it clearly showed that there are ways that haven't been explored yet...)
JD was out the moment Bomber lost the winners match. i watched their 0 - 2 then went to sleep having really low expectations for JD to make it out of the group.
JD hasn't been showing the outcomes that people expect from him. As a professional SC2 player, he has to be aware of opponents, their strategies, improved ways of dealing with your own weaknesses, etc. He certainly is aware of the "discussion" around Protoss issues, so we always hope he will find new ways to win.
That he also lost to Bomber (strange to see that Red Bull in front) increases the questions to include "Did he just have an off night due to ____? Has he not been practicing as much or for particular opponents? Is he frustrated with "the" game and/or "his" game? Are the contenders just able to come up with the right strategy at the right time to beat him?"
So many people want to see JD rise to the very top and win those tournaments that it is easy to lose hope with each defeat.
And congratulations to Arthur & Bomber on advancing. Good luck on the rounds ahead. Has, keep working on your skills - it was nice to see a lesser known player getting some attention. Hope it hasn't been all bad.
I am actually kind of glad JD got knocked out. This may sound strange but it makes me less sad now that scarlett lost, she now has good company among the eliminated players.
While I haven't had a chance to watch last night's WCS AM, I did watch all of Cologne. There JD was up to his usual self of pushing his reactions to the last possible second and flawlessly executing with what he had. In almost all of JD's games, his mechanics were amazing but the timing of his decisions was off. Eeking out victories when they should be landslides has been JD's mantra as of late. It sounds like last night was no different and he got caught. Unfortunate, but not surprising. I can see he is a brilliant player, but SC2 is quite unforgiving.
I don't mind cheese, personally, because it gives us variation in the landscape of games. I have been underwhelmed by TvZ because of the day in, day out Terran train. Back in WoL before the queen buff, TvZ was all over the place and it was entertaining as hell. Cheesing throws everything on its head.
What I do find disappointing about cheese is that it allows arguably lesser players to advance in the Bo1 or Bo3 format (see Kyrix in GSL Open Season 2 or BitByBit's legacy). Having said that, MVP (see MVP's career) and Maru (see Maru v Innovation) have both demonstrated the power of cheese as a strategy to exposed weaknesses of specific players. In that context, JD's loss is no different.
It has been said that the Protoss of SC1 also had a wide variety of builds that defined it as a race. In that, SC2 is no different. There does appear to be something lost in translation, however, when success for the defending player relies so much on proper scouting and perfect reaction and not so much on the execution of the cheesing player. It would be awesome if there were more opportunities to outplay or react to the opponent, even from a deficit, but alas, it is what it is.
I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
On February 28 2014 05:25 Plansix wrote: The power of Axiom YouTube video where Crank and Alicia apologize for playing Protoss is pretty awesome too. The ending is really funny.
I have Arthur on my fantasy team that I play with my friends for WCS AM so I'm happy he made it through. I'm stoked for Bomber because he's pretty much the best! But at the same time I'm sad for JD and was kind of cheering for him too despite having Arthur on my team, and preferring Bomber over everyone. Lol.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
If JD was a super cheesy protoss he would probably get quite a bit of hate. His BW accomplishments would likely give him some leeway compared to newer players, but that is only appropriate.
Believe it or not, some people just don't like what the game is like right now.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
If JD was a super cheesy protoss he would probably get quite a bit of hate. His BW accomplishments would likely give him some leeway compared to newer players, but that is only appropriate.
Believe it or not, some people just don't like what the game is like right now.
agreed.
edit: saying "if Has had" in a sentence is just awesome.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
If JD was a super cheesy protoss he would probably get quite a bit of hate. His BW accomplishments would likely give him some leeway compared to newer players, but that is only appropriate.
Believe it or not, some people just don't like what the game is like right now.
If you or anyone else doesn't like it then by all means the door is that a way. It's funny because this isn't the first time I told you where the exit is. Pretty sure I dealt with such b.s. in a LR thread not too long ago too. hue hue hue.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
Ah, yes, the pistols at 20 paces view of "how the game should be played".
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
Ah, yes, the pistols at 20 paces view of "how the game should be played".
Right.
Can we please settle all balance and design arguments in this fashion? LR threads would be way better.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne.
I wasn't. And the people who were were fans of Innovation. (I'm assuming you mean that series).
okay....? I didn't say all people....
No you didn't. But the people who were mad were fans of the losing player. That's generally going to be the case. It is being said that if Jaedong had cheesed out Has nobody would complain because Has has so few fans compared to Jaedong.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
If JD was a super cheesy protoss he would probably get quite a bit of hate. His BW accomplishments would likely give him some leeway compared to newer players, but that is only appropriate.
Believe it or not, some people just don't like what the game is like right now.
If you or anyone else doesn't like it then by all means the door is that a way. It's funny because this isn't the first time I told you where the exit is. Pretty sure I dealt with such b.s. in a LR thread not too long ago too. hue hue hue.
Won't be the first time I ignore your pompous douchery either, so it all works out in the end. I'm a little tired of of explaining how being unhappy with the current state of the game and having no interest in it don't necessarily go together, but if you think on it really hard it might just come to you on its own.
I don't even know who are, let alone care. I've never had anything resembling a conversation with you. If you think typing random pretentious nonsense that I didn't even read at me in LR threads is somehow putting anyone in their place, you go right ahead.
You do come across as somewhat delusional and more than a little bizarre though.
On February 27 2014 19:19 PanzerElite wrote: You can't kill protoss (*clicks on nexus) in the early game though protoss can kill you with so many silly cheeses and allins. O and let's not forgot that a toss deathball can melt away 50 supply in just 2 seconds. If protoss is so strong from the start then why not fix the lategame, because even lategame army handling is much easier for protoss.
This happens way to often. --> really difficult to hold allin gets repelled --> no worries wasn't allin at all, protoss doesn't have allins in hots --> continue's to roll the opponent in the lategame.
No other race can pull this stuff off..........
I don't even get why some people only play straight up with toss while they could easily boost their winrates by resorting to doing this stuff. It's so ridiculously strong on top of having such a powerful lategame. Has is actually bad (check his army control) but he still manages to eliminate Jaedong through coin flips lolwhut? Luckily Bomber served justice.
I think if blizzard wants to keep toss like this, they should also change how the lategame works.
- added wrong quote, nvm
User was warned for this post
Has won with unique builds that capitalized on JD's mistakes/tendencies, don't make this about balance.
I believe once you reach Premier , it should be BO5. This would account for players who depend on cheese, and will give 'the better player' a much better chance to advance.
On February 28 2014 11:16 Parcelleus wrote: I believe once you reach Premier , it should be BO5. This would account for players who depend on cheese, and will give 'the better player' a much better chance to advance.
The GSL format has served us well all this time, and I for one think mind games are an important part of Starcraft. It's not so much fun if you just know before the games even start who will win. I also think Has had a lot more cheeses up his sleeve if you saw his sick "proxy 3 different tech structures in different corners of the map" build.
On February 28 2014 11:16 Parcelleus wrote: I believe once you reach Premier , it should be BO5. This would account for players who depend on cheese, and will give 'the better player' a much better chance to advance.
But JD still would have gotten his ass kicked by Bomber, because bomber was on a roll, while JD was not.
On February 28 2014 11:16 Parcelleus wrote: I believe once you reach Premier , it should be BO5. This would account for players who depend on cheese, and will give 'the better player' a much better chance to advance.
But JD still would have gotten his ass kicked by Bomber, because bomber was on a roll, while JD was not.
^ Im a big JD fan and I agree with this, Bomber was on a roll that night, and easily stomped JD, but hey even though I am upset that he lost, I know he will be back in no time.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
I disagree, jaedong got a ton of shit when he 6 pooled scarlett, and a lot of people were saying the better player lost.
Honestly, reading a lot of these comments make me wonder if they watched the games or not, because has vs bomber in the games played featured hilariously bad unit control, wonky "creative" strategies that would make kiwikaki blush and a deserving score at the end. The fact that he almost certainly would have won if he controlled his units slightly better (from absolutely awful) is what makes the counter whine funny. having a proxy in base gateway only kill 3 scvs when it's completely unscouted vs (what would be) gasless 1rax expand is funny as fuck, the fact that he did almost no damage and would have won without (another) horrible micro mistake is rage inducing.
Oh well, the games were funny, but they were also fucking stupid.
Suppy straight up told Jaedong before the match that Has liked to do cheesey stuff in BOX matches, he even told him that against Jin Air TRUE he was down 0-2 in the series and did 2 DT builds and 2 Cannon Rushes and ended up winning 4-2. So Jaedong had this information before the matches, just did a horrible job of preparing for them. Opening hatch first against a Forge first Protoss is always a risky assumption to make on maps that allow for pylon blocking, Has just accomplished a really extreme version of that.
Upsets are apart of the game, it's what makes watching worth watching. It seems a lot of people in this thread would just rather have them fix the outcome of the series before it starts because they've already decided who the "more skilled" player is.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
I disagree, jaedong got a ton of shit when he 6 pooled scarlett, and a lot of people were saying the better player lost.
Honestly, reading a lot of these comments make me wonder if they watched the games or not, because has vs bomber in the games played featured hilariously bad unit control, wonky "creative" strategies that would make kiwikaki blush and a deserving score at the end. The fact that he almost certainly would have won if he controlled his units slightly better (from absolutely awful) is what makes the counter whine funny. having a proxy in base gateway only kill 3 scvs when it's completely unscouted vs (what would be) gasless 1rax expand is funny as fuck, the fact that he did almost no damage and would have won without (another) horrible micro mistake is rage inducing.
Oh well, the games were funny, but they were also fucking stupid.
Get over it dude, and yes I did watch the games, but reading your comment makes me wonder if you did. The proxy gate WAS scouted, bomber sent an SCV to his base. Bomber reacted absolutely brilliantly and had excellent building placement. But unless you are going to recreate that exact moment in time, with the exact same players minds in the exact same state of mind during that exact moment just with "better unit control" you or anybody else for that matter will never know what the outcome would've been. And saying otherwise is fucking stupid.
On February 28 2014 09:59 Squat wrote: I don't even know who are, let alone care. I've never had anything resembling a conversation with you. If you think typing random pretentious nonsense that I didn't even read at me in LR threads is somehow putting anyone in their place, you go right ahead.
You do come across as somewhat delusional and more than a little bizarre though.
Funny you say that after what you said prior lol. Once again you are talking out of your butt and I'm used to seeing you dodge right after I chime in the LR threads and you disappear right after. Not the first time it happened either. Let me put this another way. You continue to bitch and moan about the game yet you keep watching, so why bitch and moan about something you don't necessarily enjoy watching? Does that make any sense to you? Because it doesn't to me. I find it hard to believe that you cannot see the logic behind what I'm saying. Stop being stubborn and perhaps you should do something else with your life instead of bitching about a game in which you clearly don't enjoy considering you've been whining about results for over several months now.
You should speak for yourself before you even attempt to come at me lmao.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
I disagree, jaedong got a ton of shit when he 6 pooled scarlett, and a lot of people were saying the better player lost.
Honestly, reading a lot of these comments make me wonder if they watched the games or not, because has vs bomber in the games played featured hilariously bad unit control, wonky "creative" strategies that would make kiwikaki blush and a deserving score at the end. The fact that he almost certainly would have won if he controlled his units slightly better (from absolutely awful) is what makes the counter whine funny. having a proxy in base gateway only kill 3 scvs when it's completely unscouted vs (what would be) gasless 1rax expand is funny as fuck, the fact that he did almost no damage and would have won without (another) horrible micro mistake is rage inducing.
Oh well, the games were funny, but they were also fucking stupid.
Get over it dude, and yes I did watch the games, but reading your comment makes me wonder if you did. The proxy gate WAS scouted, bomber sent an SCV to his base. Bomber reacted absolutely brilliantly and had excellent building placement. But unless you are going to recreate that exact moment in time, with the exact same players minds in the exact same state of mind during that exact moment just with "better unit control" you or anybody else for that matter will never know what the outcome would've been. And saying otherwise is fucking stupid.
Scouting nothing in a protoss base as the zealot finishes is hardly scouting it in time, his unit control was absolutely horrendous as shown so many times in that series (if you try and tell me that a-moving his oracle for example in g1 was "good unit control" then rofl), particularly in the moment where he tried to push up the ramp and completely botched it. Oh well, getting zealots surrounded by scvs by a moving into a mineral line is amazing sorry for insinuating other wise. And you can easily tell how amazing his control is as he a-moves up this ramp with his sentries headbutting the back of his army, into forcefielding nothing.
Reference game for anyone who cares at this point.
In any event, I don't really care, the games were ridiculous, and the fact that has would have won with even the slightest bit better unit control is a joke.
On February 28 2014 11:16 Parcelleus wrote: I believe once you reach Premier , it should be BO5. This would account for players who depend on cheese, and will give 'the better player' a much better chance to advance.
But JD still would have gotten his ass kicked by Bomber, because bomber was on a roll, while JD was not.
But we would had potentially 3 more games of proxy everything out of your base vs bomber, and while stupid they were entertaining.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
Ah, yes, the pistols at 20 paces view of "how the game should be played".
Right.
Can we please settle all balance and design arguments in this fashion? LR threads would be way better.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
Ah, yes, the pistols at 20 paces view of "how the game should be played".
Right.
Can we please settle all balance and design arguments in this fashion? LR threads would be way better.
On February 28 2014 08:01 tili wrote:
On February 28 2014 07:59 Yorkie wrote:
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne.
I wasn't. And the people who were were fans of Innovation. (I'm assuming you mean that series).
okay....? I didn't say all people....
You definitely did not say "some people". Your lack of modifier is clearly the source of the confusion.
Luckily, people is plural of person. Meaning two or more.
Your lack of understanding basic words is clearly the cause of your confusion.
But I was never confused. Your comment was clearly left to be opened ended at "two more", which means up to and including the majority people who watch SC2. Or not, its really up to the reader. Vague comments like this are the life blood of internet complaining. Never be completely clear, then you can get backed into a corner or proven wrong.
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
Ah, yes, the pistols at 20 paces view of "how the game should be played".
Right.
Can we please settle all balance and design arguments in this fashion? LR threads would be way better.
On February 28 2014 08:01 tili wrote:
On February 28 2014 07:59 Yorkie wrote:
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne.
I wasn't. And the people who were were fans of Innovation. (I'm assuming you mean that series).
okay....? I didn't say all people....
You definitely did not say "some people". Your lack of modifier is clearly the source of the confusion.
Luckily, people is plural of person. Meaning two or more.
Your lack of understanding basic words is clearly the cause of your confusion.
But I was never confused. Your comment was clearly left to be opened ended at "two more", which means up to and including the majority people who watch SC2. Or not, its really up to the reader. Vague comments like this are the life blood of internet complaining. Never be completely clear, then you can get backed into a corner or proven wrong.
I honestly think most people that argue that Jaedong should've advanced just want to watch the best go against the best, and that's what I think as well. I also think it's pretty depressing that the Protoss race has so many builds and early cheese tactics that totally abuse what seems to be bad balance choices (thank god for the incoming Toss nerf!). On the other hand, it's cool that unknown players can do that kind of thing, and it was a smart thing to do (I think Has realized that he could've never beat Jaedong in a macro game, and the fact that he was playing all the way from China probably didn't help either).
Still, if Has is as good as some people project him to be, he better keep performing well in the round of 16 and hopefully beyond, because if he gets bested pretty quick, it'll be embarrassing to Jaedong and frustrating to people like myself who want to watch high quality matches. Has performing well in the round of 16 and maybe even making the semi-finals will change what people think about him, and on one level I really hope this happens so he stops getting bad attention and his win against Jaedong is a little more justified.
On the other hand, Arthur's match on Yeonsu against Bomber? A 1 base blink all in at 15 minutes when Bomber had a natural, 6 bunkers, AND a sensor tower? You can argue that Bomber didn't play perfectly, but damn, it sucks that you have to play absolutely perfectly as a Terran or a Zerg to hold off most Protoss all ins, where as Protoss can make a few mistakes here and there, but hey no biggie. One good blink will seal the deal, amirite?
On February 28 2014 04:20 Zealously wrote: I find it hard to believe that most people would take even one millisecond to bash JD if he had a number of abusive strategies and used only them to advance. People like to claim that these arguments are about game design and whatnot, but it's (usually) really only an outlet for whining because the 'wrong' player won.
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne. 2. You might concede that if Has had won in a longer game, there would be much, much less bashing....
Ah, yes, the pistols at 20 paces view of "how the game should be played".
Right.
Can we please settle all balance and design arguments in this fashion? LR threads would be way better.
On February 28 2014 08:01 tili wrote:
On February 28 2014 07:59 Yorkie wrote:
1. I disagree. People were pretty unhappy with HerO's super cheesy series at cologne.
I wasn't. And the people who were were fans of Innovation. (I'm assuming you mean that series).
okay....? I didn't say all people....
You definitely did not say "some people". Your lack of modifier is clearly the source of the confusion.
Luckily, people is plural of person. Meaning two or more.
Your lack of understanding basic words is clearly the cause of your confusion.
But I was never confused. Your comment was clearly left to be opened ended at "two more", which means up to and including the majority people who watch SC2. Or not, its really up to the reader. Vague comments like this are the life blood of internet complaining. Never be completely clear, then you can get backed into a corner or proven wrong.
It's hard to read this without laughing. All language has an element of ambiguity, which is why lawyers are so helpful.
It is clear that 99.999% of the time people is not all inclusive, and to take it as such is silly. Also, the comment wasn't directed at you, and this whole conversation has become petty. Be well.
Bomber and JD fought all night long against poor cheesy Toss ! No macro game from Arthur and Has, just collect gates like collect sticker. I am very happy for Bomber because he is my Fav Terran but I like JD too and I am very upset for him. I can accept one cheesy game from a toss but not all games. For those who think Arthur is a genius, he is the new Rain or sOs, I saw him to lose versus some european terran grand master without glory when he was WesternWolves.
I laughed cause Rotty said bomber didn't scoot. Why scoot ? He knew the guys went to cheese him.
The easiest and cheesiest race, I really dont like the warpgate mechanics and maps that allow to Photon Cannon zergs exp just ridicolous why they wont make enough space like on Heavy Rain
I haven't watched SC2 matches as much in the past half-year, but I was immensely entertained by the Has vs JD series. IMO, matches 2 and 3 are purely JD's fault. Zerg's always responsible for figuring out where the protoss is dumping gas into. Even the casters were discussing if JD would realize this based on not seeing stalkers/sentries at the front door. In match 3, JD opens hatch first and doesn't scout. If he had a drone out on the map beyond the wall or had opened pool first, he would've won easily. Given that JD has a much better macro game, he should've played safer in the early game versus a weaker player.
I agree that if every match were like this, SC2 would be a horrible spectator sport. But if something like this happens occasionally, it's quite entertaining to see a top player get deservedly punished for playing greedy.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/shiroiusagi/wcs/wcs_na_lr.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Waxangel/WCS2014/America_1/ro32groupd.png)
EG.Jaedong suffered a shock elimination in the Ro32 of WCS America. Despite being the second place finisher in the 2013 season of WCS, Jaedong found himself laid low by all-ins from Taiwanese player 
Yoe.Has. 
RedBull_Bomber 2-1 in the winner's match. Though Arthur's 2-base blink all-in was deflected in game one, a 1-base variation allowed him to tie up the series in game two. Arthur then closed out the series in game three with yet another all-in, expanding to Habitation Station's gold base before overpowering Bomber with a horde of gateway units.
Protoss (3): Alicia, Oz, Arthur
Terran (2): Heart, Bomber
Zerg (3): TooDming, HyuN, Revival
Playoffs without Jaedong won't be that intresting any more.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/k67K0OT.png)
