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I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
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On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference.
That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes).
This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance.
I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
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I guess nobody predicted that one.
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On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty.
The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
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A game in which race X 100% beats race Y is also asymmetrical, the question is, how much asymetricallity (????) do we want?
People complain about how Protoss has the best options early game, is about even midgame, and ahead lategame. That's not how it is, but how it -feels- to the people.
Jeadongs loss is just another one that hightens the frustration 
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France9034 Posts
On February 27 2014 23:02 Rainmansc wrote:
Ragnarork TvZ is a fun matchup. The problems are the P matchups...
TvP is fine to watch, no matter the balance for this match up (and I can say I'm frustrated sometimes as a Terran player, but frustration comes mostly from me playing bad and not having adapted from WoL TvP that much). I always find entertaining bioball kiting, spreading, templar flanks, vikings trying to pick off colossi, the battles on low (< 50) supplies from both parties, medivac emergency pick-ups, etc, etc, etc.
PvP I don't understand anything at this MU but find it quite enjoyable to watch (at least way more than back in WoL, for sure), esp. because of the many openers and awkward situations that can arise.
ZvP is the most problematic match up for me to rank. I don't really like SwarmHosts vs Deathball, but that's all, otherwise I like the games quite well.
So, yeah. Funny is, as for many things, completely relativistic and saying "TvZ is fun, P matchups are problematic" is kind of dependent on what you like or not. I think many people who don't like these match-ups don't play protoss and feel frustrated when they lose on the ladder vs protoss (I'm sometimes tempted, but as time passes, I learned to cool down before saying something out of frustration), and think they can't do anything against it. While I recognize that, notably, for the lowest leagues (and I'm in gold, so yeah), it may be a bit easier to protoss in these match-ups, that still doesn't mean shit about the level of entertainment.
Oh, and there's also the players. TvZ can be interesting, or can be awful, depending on how the game turns out and how the players play (I heard Reality vs Soulkey hasn't a very good reputation).
So yeah, no, the problem is mostly with the people rather than with the match-ups themselves in terms of entertainment. Balance-wise, it may be a whole different story, but I won't talk about it, a smarter fellow would immediately put myself back in my place, amongst those who shouldn't talk about balance (No TheDwf, I'm not looking at you  )
On February 27 2014 23:20 SC2Toastie wrote:A game in which race X 100% beats race Y is also asymmetrical, the question is, how much asymetricallity (????) do we want? People complain about how Protoss has the best options early game, is about even midgame, and ahead lategame. That's not how it is, but how it -feels- to the people. Jeadongs loss is just another one that hightens the frustration
Asymmetry can be considered independently from balance. If race X has 10 options, race Y only 5 which are different, works differently, has weaknesses and strength different from the other, etc, etc etc. Still fine. Balance intervenes later in the process, when we consider the options themselves and ask ourselves "Can the other race counter/react to this and how?", and surely not "Can the other race do the same?".
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On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day.
That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Edit: that is just a really shitty argument. Have you ever noticed how power ranks don't include head-to-head, in the aggregate of games not the result of a single one. That's because there's some way of analyzing skill apart from a single series or match.
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On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day. That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game.
Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes?
JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
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that pylon photon wallin from has .____________________________________. i loled so hard. cant play? play toss. cant makro? play toss? :p
User was warned for this post
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France9034 Posts
On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day. That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game. Edit: that is just a really shitty argument. Have you ever noticed how power ranks don't include head-to-head, in the aggregate of games not the result of a single one. That's because there's some way of analyzing skill apart from a single series or match.
You just said a single series or match doesn't matter on its own, alone. Don't worry, JD still has better stats than Has. And we're not denying that. But saying "The better player didn't win" is a complete nonsense.
He still lost this series, and Has won it. Period. Statistics are just a way to say "There's more chance than for a huge number of matches, the tendancy should be this or that".
Fans have the right to be sad, but they should also learn to respect the player that beat their favorite. Damn how hard can it be?
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On February 27 2014 23:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day. That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game. Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes? JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but man, that horse of yours is huge 0.0
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On February 27 2014 23:41 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day. That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game. Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes? JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him.
Your analogy and logic combine doesn't make any sense. A poker player can make the dumbest moves in one day and still win cause he hits the right cards, does that make him the better player on that day? According to you, yes.
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The lesser (Protoss) player wins thanks to cheese. Nothing new here.
User was warned for this post
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On February 27 2014 23:55 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:41 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day. That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game. Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes? JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him. Your analogy and logic combine doesn't make any sense. A poker player can make the dumbest moves in one day and still win cause he hits the right cards, does that make him the better player on that day? According to you, yes.
A lot of poker players say they are in control of the game flow and if they win or lose. The same with Magic players are the pro level. SC2 is not so random that it prohibits the best player from winning due to random chance.
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France9034 Posts
On February 27 2014 23:55 imrusty269 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:41 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:34 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:15 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 23:11 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 23:00 Ragnarork wrote:On February 27 2014 22:14 tili wrote:On February 27 2014 20:32 Plansix wrote:
Man, it's embarrassing to be an SC2 fan with all this whining. JD isn't focusing on the other race, but himself and what he could have done differently. It's why he has the heart of a champion. It's also a bit sad that there seems to be a class of veterans who dismiss genuine frustration on the part of dedicated sc2 fans as 'whining'. Of course he could have done things differently, that doesn't make the result extremely underwhelming. You just cannot say the better player won, and the games we got were actually 'meh' because they totally relied on the asymmetrical power of Protoss cheese. Which is even worse, because it is very unlikely he could touch JD in a standard game.It's not whining. It was just a sad result, which frankly wasn't good for the game. Edit: okay, some is whine, but not all. That's funny because I read that exactly as: "He knows his strength and weaknesses, and know he can't go macro game vs JD, so chooses to cheese for the win". Well, he won thanks to that decision, that makes him the better player in this series. We're not talking about statistical information on months of games, just on that series. And (not specifically talking about cheese), cannon rush isn't exactly new to SC2 and has quite not been part of any balance talk for ages. Which make it quite irrelevant in the "protoss is OP" discussion. And about asymmetrical design (mentioned in my earlier post), people must realize that unless you want to watch mirror match-ups every day with only one race, asymmetry is necessary. But that means you can't say "Race X has that and not Y, imba". That's the principle of asymmetrical design, that race X has something race Y doesn't have. And that's why it's hard to balance such a game, because the easy way (copy/pasting for each race) is completely dumb and should never be done. Oh, and the "veterans" don't really dismiss genuine frustration. They just may have a higher tolerance cut-off for what is entertaining and what's not, but most of all, they may also mostly just avoid whining, and that's the real difference. That doesn't make him the better player, it makes him the winner. And I understand asymmetrical design, I'm simply arguing that the games were legitimately underwhelming. He cheeses in ALL of them. That kind of play is not impressive (except in the amount of balls it takes). This is not chess, it is not 100% decision based, he had no idea if JD had blind countered him. He was just guessing, yet we are trying to extol his Hail Mary as some ind of brilliance. I don't dislike Has, I'm just saying that bashing every sad fan is poor form, and we can have legitimate rationales for feeling salty. The better player is the one that wins on that given day. Another day JD might be a better player, but not that day. That simply cannot hold in a partially luck based game. Like poker? Or dota, which has a huge number of random elements, like runes? JD had a bad day and was not everything he could be. It's why bomber beat him and it's why Has beat him. Your analogy and logic combine doesn't make any sense. A poker player can make the dumbest moves in one day and still win cause he hits the right cards, does that make him the better player on that day? According to you, yes.
Yours doesn't. A dumb move that makes him win thanks to hitting the right cards? He won't win ANYTHING from a very good player. What he's saying is that you can't just chip in the notion of "Better player" to say who SHOULD win.
That just doesn't work. If that would, we would have a static world ranking with the same person always #1, the same #2, etc etc. Because the "better player" would win every time. That's not how it, obvioulsy enough, works.
Upsets wouldn't be possible, games results would be known in advance and it would be completely boring. That's why we play the games in the first place: because it's not a guarantee that the player who've won the most, in the past, of these two, will actually win.
There are player who are very inconsistent (e.g. Bomber, Jaedong), that can beat anyone on a good day, and lose to a way less skilled player on a bad day. At that time, they're "the better player" if they win, and not if they lose, on that single day. But using this wording is wrong from the start.
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On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote:
I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through.
I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month.
His TvZ looked crisper at least.
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On February 27 2014 22:20 tili wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 21:08 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 20:59 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On February 27 2014 20:43 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 20:39 Furikawari wrote:On February 27 2014 20:34 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 19:53 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 27 2014 19:47 XaCez wrote:
I'd have loved to see the reaction if HerO was doing this to FireCake. In that case the better player won and wanted to avoid 3 hours of boringness. Lol, so true. People are just pissed fan favorite JD got knocked out by the race he has alway had the hardest time with. It's not just that a favorite is knock out. It's the way it's done that rely on exploiting bad game design as much as possible. Maybe Has is a good player, maybe lag is why he played like this, anyway it shouldnt be possible to win like this. Guess what, it is possible to win with all ins. Always has been. JD isn't spending time blaming the game, he is to good for that and he only focuses on things he can change. Whining doesn't do any thing. Life is hard, get a helmet. Except they are not all-ins. Has his winning DT rush failed he would be comfortable on 2 bases. His 1000+ mineral cannon rush left him with a fine followup. His inbase 2gate proxy against bomber left him ahead in supply.(only to lose due to his own control). Arturs 1 base blink worked 15 minutes into the game after failing to do damage early on. But sure stay on your high horse, condescend people and say protoss is fine. Execpt that JD got his ass kicked by Bomber too and won only one map the entire night. Sure Protoss has all-ins, but this has more to do with JD having a bad night and getting slapped around by them. On February 27 2014 21:03 Mikku wrote:On February 27 2014 20:51 Plansix wrote:On February 27 2014 20:48 Mikku wrote:On February 27 2014 20:35 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 27 2014 20:05 Mikku wrote:
I do not have anything against asymetrical design or all-in possibilities, but in case of pylon wall cannon rush it was pure abuse of protoss race design, nothing less, nothing more. And Jd, with his hatch first, could not do ANYTHING about it. What is not atm..? The fact, that Protoss needs just one worker to warp in limitless number of structures, as long as he has money, is nothing like proxy pylon warp in or anything in this regard, it is pure design flaw. Where is punishment to protoss' economy and where is the reason for this concept? Just to diferenciate races? Maybe, but still I see it as a huge flaw. Was like that in BW and everyone survived. It even said in the SC prime manual that the probe was one of the most dangerous Protoss units. Respect the probe at all times. Yeah, I get it, but still I see it as design flaw, because one of the main rts concepts: "need of structure construction > workers pulled of gathering process > less resources to spend" is absolutely not respected here, just for sake of differenciation of races. Players have to learn to live with that, but in the end, these extreme cases like this one are, in the end, just pure abuse of game design and have nothing to do with level of a player. As I have said before, focusing on stuff like that only loses you games and makes you a worse player. Assuming you or your favorite player lost because of a flaw in the game is the path to losing more games. JD has and always will take the blame for his losses. People should learn to do that same, rather than bitching that the game didn't end the way they wanted it to. Jesus, Plansix, did you watch those games? Chill with the self righteousness. They were NOT good games. It's not like hero vs. JD game 5 at Cologne. They were absolutely abusive. People are going to be miffed. They should be.
Asking Plansix to chill with the self-righteousness is kind like asking water not to be wet. It's just who he is.
The games were bad, JD played poorly and protoss is stupid, not sure what other conclusions to draw. I figured JD was going out here since his play in 2014 has been rather bad overall. Cool Bomber made it, I hope he wins the whole thing.
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France9034 Posts
On February 28 2014 00:04 Wintex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 23:09 FeyFey wrote:
I think Arthur and Has just used their best shot at this. Prepare early game stuff and pray for a lot of lag (and the internet answered their calls it seems). And its not like Koreans don't do it just like this, okay they usually do it once to disrupt the other sides mind set in the whole series. But maybe just doing the same stuff over and over was the masterful strategy, since their opponents thought, they will never do it again.
And if you look at the predictions, I bet neither Bomber nor JD actually cared one bit about this group since they thought they were sure to get through. I think he cared after he lost to both MC and TLO the last month. His TvZ looked crisper at least.
Now we need JD #1 fan for an explanation (and excuse) about Jaedong.
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On February 27 2014 16:16 Seeker wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/k67K0OT.png) -__-;;
So, according to my math:
1765 people voted (# of votes/2)
1732 voted for JD (or only 33 didn't vote for JD)
At most, only 33 people of 1765 or 1.9% of people could have gotten it correct (assuming best case scenario here).
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EPT
