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On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him.
And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
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On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end.
Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else.
Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose.
The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves.
Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
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On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not."
Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong.
On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot.
Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
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On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
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On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address.
10x is a lot. It's thousands of percent better. I like my hyperbole to be slightly within reason.
And the best part about the argument is that Bomber beat Has. He won, but people still complain about it. The argument boils down to "Bomber had to try to hard to beat Has."
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On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Sure, I can agree with that. Things like JD vs Has was something where I saw as JD playing poorly. Just as Bomber can play like the best player in the world at times, he can look absolutely horrible at others.
On March 08 2014 04:16 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. 10x is a lot. It's thousands of percent better. I like my hyperbole to be slightly within reason. And the best part about the argument is that Bomber beat Has. He won, but people still complain about it. The argument boils down to "Bomber had to try to hard to beat Has."
What's the point of hyperbole if it has to be within reason?
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Austria24417 Posts
On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them.
So the only real issue there would still be the MSC.
Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
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On March 08 2014 05:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC. Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense.
DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic.
I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged.
Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day):
http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/401960Screenshot20140307212534.jpg
(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.)
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On March 08 2014 05:35 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC. Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense. DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic. I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged. Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day): http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/401960Screenshot20140307212534.jpg(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.)
There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings? Gaulzi got to Masters using only cannon rushes. Should we nerf cannons? Anyone who repetedly practices doing an uncommon cheese tactic on ladder will win with it more often than not. Win % doesn't make it imba.
Voids are fine in PvZ. There are plenty of units that kill voids. You keep trying to make it seem like the problems with Protoss extend past your view of PvT but they don't. PvZ is fine.
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On March 08 2014 05:39 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:35 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 05:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC. Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense. DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic. I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged. Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day): http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/401960Screenshot20140307212534.jpg(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.) There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings?
You missed my point. I don't care about the fact you can get to GM by playing exclusively 6 pool, Cannon rushes or 11/11.
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On March 08 2014 04:11 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 04:05 Chaggi wrote:On March 08 2014 03:48 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. This bullshit of you have to be 1000x better than the Protoss to stop the allin needs to end. Case in point - Jaedong lost to Has. People were borderline calling for Pylon cost increases. But the bottom line is Has is a known cheeser who cannon rushes very often and actually cannon rushed Jaedong in game 1. Then on the last game, on a 2 person map where Has has used the exact 6 pylon cannon rush he won with before (in a televized match) Jaedong goes hatch first and doesnt even pull a drone to block a potential cannon rush. He then proceeds to pull all his drones to fight a 1000+ mineral cannon/pylon/gateway wall instead of cancelling his hatchery and going for a Nydus build or something else. Sure Jaedong is better, but there are numerous clear and identifiable mistakes he made in that game which caused him to lose. The same can be said for Bomber's 2nd game vs. Has. He delayed medivacs for way too long given his stim usage. His units practically killed themselves. Given how close in skill everyone is in the early game (there are very few things to actually do until later in the game) there isn't as much to differentiate player skill as you'd think. So allin defense basically comes down to "did you do it properly or did you not." Are you that dense? You're trying to tell everyone here that Has, someone that no one has ever heard of, is slightly worse than Bomber, a fucking WCS Champion, and one of the best Terrans in the world? I can't believe how far you are going to try and defend Protoss all-in's being stupidly strong. On March 08 2014 03:33 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player? Whatever makes you feel better about losing to an all in. I lost to a 9 pool a while ago, but I'm not going to sit here and claim I was 5x better than him. And bomber isn't 10x better than Has. Just better and more confident in the late game. 10x is a lot. Good ole Plansix, can't argue with anything, and brings up the most inane things to address. No, I'm saying that even the best players in the world can lose to someone of lesser skill if they make mistakes in the early game, where there is less to differentiate good players from bad ones than in the late game.
Fun fact, only happen with protoss. You never heard of some unknown terran beating Parting or Classic do ya ?
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There are always going to be some shit head in GM that get there by all-inning his way to glory. Bad habit proved this long ago with his 6 pool all the way to GM. Every game. It doesn't mean that Zerg is broke just because he decided to 6 pool his way to glory.
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On March 08 2014 05:41 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:39 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 05:35 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 05:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC. Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense. DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic. I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged. Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day): http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/401960Screenshot20140307212534.jpg(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.) There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings? You missed my point. I don't care about the fact you can get to GM by playing exclusively 6 pool, Cannon rushes or 11/11.
I don't think it's uninteresting. Not all of us share your fetish of watching nothing but marines split against banelings in 30 minute parade push TvZs all day long. The variety of play keeps the game entertaining.
Sure there are times when it's a freewin. But there are also times when a player like bomber or Jaedong sniffs out the cheese without seeing it, makes blind defense, and holds. Then we get to admire their amazing spider sense and it's wonderful.
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On March 08 2014 05:39 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:35 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 05:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC. Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense. DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic. I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged. Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day): http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/401960Screenshot20140307212534.jpg(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.) There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings? Gaulzi got to Masters using only cannon rushes. Should we nerf cannons? Anyone who repetedly practices doing an uncommon cheese tactic on ladder will win with it more often than not. Win % doesn't make it imba. Voids are fine in PvZ. There are plenty of units that kill voids. You keep trying to make it seem like the problems with Protoss extend past your view of PvT but they don't. PvZ is fine.
If you scout the 6p, it's autowin, Same with canon rush, once you learnt how to deal with that, there close to 0 chance to lose against that. That's why I'm happy when I meet Gaulzi.
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On March 08 2014 05:46 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 05:41 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 05:39 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 05:35 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 05:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. That's a bit drastic. Neither DTs nor void rays are a core problem in any matchup. They become a problem in PvT and PvP if you can't reliably scout builds based around them in time to prepare effectively and/or if you can't punish them. So the only real issue there would still be the MSC. Oracles are a bit different. I do think the speed increase wasn't the right way to go. I'd much rather have some lategame upgrade that makes them more useful when mineral lines are protected by static defense. DTs are not a core problem, but watching someone lose in 7 minuts because he couldn't scout a Dark shrine is simply terrible, whether it happens in PvT, PvZ or PvP. This kind of freewin is absolutely uninteresting to watch. It brings nothing to the game. I don't see how putting back the Dark shrine to 250 gas so we see less of this is drastic. I am unsure Zergs share your opinion about Voids not being a core problem in ZvP, but I'll leave that to them. In PvT, scouted Void busts still have decent chances at winning against a prepared defence because of how ridiculous their dps against Armored targets is when charged. Just to illustrate how many freewins you can get even at GM level with that very basic strategy, see below the statistics of a top100 GM Protoss on Europe who plays a proxy Void bust in the vast majority of his PvTs (probably only varies if you meet him again the same day): http://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/401960Screenshot20140307212534.jpg(His name is Foreseer if you want to check his history and stats.) There is also one guy who got to GM by 6 pooling every game. Should we nerf Zerglings? You missed my point. I don't care about the fact you can get to GM by playing exclusively 6 pool, Cannon rushes or 11/11. I don't think it's uninteresting. Not all of us share your fetish of watching nothing but marines split against banelings in 30 minute parade push TvZs all day long. The variety of play keeps the game entertaining. Sure there are times when it's a freewin. But there are also times when a player like bomber or Jaedong sniffs out the cheese without seeing it, makes blind defense, and holds. Then we get to admire their amazing spider sense and it's wonderful.
Your assumption is absolutely ridiculous.
Variety of play is nice, but not when it degenerates into coinflips and volatility, and certainly not when it regularly allows worse players to win against better opponents. The competition has no sense if the game is riddled with luck-based play.
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Austria24417 Posts
I haven't seen void rays be problematic in any matchup at pro level. Zergs have them pretty figured out by now (they even did before they discovered swarm hosts). 3 stargate void ray is extremely rare these days because there are extremely strong timings against it and it's got trouble transitioning against infestation pit tech. The only problem for zerg in PvZ is the maxed out templar/colossus/voidray/tempest army because of its synergy and its ability to cover basically any threat, making the zerg tech switching extremely hard once protoss gets to that stage. I wouldn't really highlight the void ray as the big problem that sticks out there.
Void rays are perfectly figured out in PvP by now, they're only really useful if you're doing some kind of timing attack or as a safety buffer unit if you open stargate and need something to defend counterattacks with. Once the unit compositions involve templar tech then void rays rapidly become useless.
In PvT... I dunno, I never do that all in and I see it too rarely at pro level to really comment on it.
About the 7 minute win, yes it's frustrating but that's always going to be part of any RTS. It was the same in BW (Fantasy lost to a DT rush in the very last BW OSL game) and in every other game. It happens in ZvP if zerg early pools on a 4 player map, it used to happen in WoL when protoss had to guess whether the early gas was for a 1/1/1 or a 2rax (if they even saw it). And 150/150 was done to make DTs a more viable option without them being a cheese-or-lose type of unit. The Dark Shrine cost is not the core issue there and I wouldn't like DTs being massively nerfed in PvZ or PvT when changing its cost doesn't even address the main problem in PvT.
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Northern Ireland23756 Posts
There's variability in builds and decision making in which you can make an informed decision on how a game is going, what you wish to pursue with that in mind and various other things. There's an air to Protoss at the minute when it's a variability in which the defending player is often trying to make the correct decision blindly, which is problematic to many.
Equally, there are tweaks in the latest patch that need worked into existing builds and styles, so let's not be hasty in disregarding those changes.
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There's always going to be cheese. Always. In every RTS unless you have NR X minutes people will find cheese.
The first thing I ever did in Age of Empires when I found out you could build with multiple workers at the same time was take all my starting workers, run to the enemy base and build a tower right next to it super fast. I won a lot of games doing that.
The extent that you'd have to go to to buff defensive play to a point where cheese was no longer viable would ruin the game.
All sports have "coinflippy strategies" not just esports. What is a Blitz? It's basically let's hope we can tackle this guy before he manages to throw it to a receiver we've left open. What's a hail mary? It's let's hope they don't defend this one guy and I can throw it really far. If you know these things are coming and you react properly you will beat them most of the time, except when you make a mistake. It's like Starcraft.
I think cheese makes the game fun. I honestly enjoyed the Has cannon rush vs. Jaedong. As much as I wanted to see JD win, the build was incredibly creative.
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Northern Ireland23756 Posts
Some people just hate cheese outright though, but many would share the above opinion with yourself (as do I), I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor 
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On March 08 2014 06:11 Wombat_NI wrote:I'm just not sure if Protoss isn't in a level above that in annoyance factor
I find it funny that the state of balance right now is pretty much Terrans bitching, ZERGS MAKING INSIGHTFUL REMARKS, and Protoss going "you mad bro? you look mad."
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EPT
