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On March 08 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:56 Grumbels wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change. I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions. You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made. Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden.
Thats basically the same for other races. You scout toss but if you just happen to miss a pylon or get denied you can get fucked really fast. Toss has the best scouting in the game but theres always a chance to miss something. The other races don´t have fun either trying to scout toss and guessing the build of the day.
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On March 08 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:56 Grumbels wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change. I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions. You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made. Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden. In TvP, you're pretty much always going for marines, marauders, and medivacs... and yet you feel so helpless at the beginning of the game! Now imagine that same feeling only you don't know what composition you're even going for. That's PvP.
That's literally what every other race does. Oh no, miss a proxy pylon with a DT shrine? You die to DT's. Miss a pylon with a proxy oracle, too bad, your entire worker line is dead.
^ yeah what he posted too
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On March 08 2014 02:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:56 Grumbels wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change. I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions. You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made. Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden. In TvP, you're pretty much always going for marines, marauders, and medivacs... and yet you feel so helpless at the beginning of the game! Now imagine that same feeling only you don't know what composition you're even going for. That's PvP.
PvP will be slightly more volatile, but it won't completely collapse. Just because you can find a game example where the change would be felt doesn't mean that PvP is doomed. The MsC vision nerf was a good change because the unit was way too omniscient and caused issues in PvT. I prefer having PvT being playable with a slight hit to PvP (it's always balanced anyway), and this theme of protoss players prophecizing doom for PvP if you make any slight change to anything protoss seems kinda cynical to me.
Also, why should you have perfect information in PvP when you can't get it in PvT/Z?
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On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
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On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups.
Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
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On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here.
I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
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On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too).
In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
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On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
I have absolutely no idea how you managed to distort my post to end up with this result.
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On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
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On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
This so much.
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On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement.
If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it.
As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent.
There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly.
If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted.
This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
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On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games.
As I said before, Idra would totally agree. He made many of the same comments about losing to both Terran and Protoss. Of course it is subjective on which is more difficult based on the player and how the prefer to play.
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Northern Ireland27040 Posts
On March 08 2014 02:59 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. I have absolutely no idea how you managed to distort my post to end up with this result.
What I took is that the MSC basically supplants the role of high sentry counts and the gas investment those entail and enables you to tech harder, just as safely.
In that world therefore, having potentially game winning tech paths like DT rushes being cheaper than in WoL doesn't make much sense outside of 'encouraging variety'
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On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this:
free win if unscouted
still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
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On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change.
He never said that.... Whats is wrong with you??
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On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast.
I'll tell it in another way :
Allin should be as hard to execute as it is to defend it. Blink allin is much easier to do than defend against it, same goes with 1 SG 3 gate allin, and all the other allin a protoss as at his disposition. I don't know if you even face a proxy oracle into 3 gate void, but as a terran, I can tell you that even scouted, the chance to reboot this is close to 30%. MC did it 3 times in a row to MMA back in season 2 WCS IIRC. It is extremely hard to hold. Blink is extremely hard to hold, and much easier to execute.
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On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends
You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
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On March 08 2014 03:13 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. As I said before, Idra would totally agree. He made many of the same comments about losing to both Terran and Protoss. Of course it is subjective on which is more difficult based on the player and how the prefer to play.
I don't mind allin at all, i'm a cheeser myself sometimes, but you won't tell me proxy 11/11 is easy to execute, or at least as easy as a 2 gates proxy ? Both unscouted can kill you, but a zerg can win even if he didn't scout in time. When the 2 gates are down, it's over for the zerg.
It's an exemple but there are other, eventhough allin is much more "protosslike" than terran and zerg.
When a zerg baneling burst you and you scouted it, he can already call gg, but when a protoss HT zealot allin you, gosh, even prepared, you better be lucky that he miss his storms.
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On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made.
I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
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On March 08 2014 03:25 Ninjabutter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 03:21 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 03:16 Ninjabutter wrote:On March 08 2014 03:06 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:59 Faust852 wrote:On March 08 2014 02:53 Plansix wrote:On March 08 2014 02:31 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 02:26 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:
[quote]
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? All of those three things need to change anyway, so it's OK. Oracles and DTs lead to coinflip issues in PvP? It's the same in PvT, so it can be addressed for both match-ups. Hahaha, okay I'm done here. I don't see what's funny. Protoss themselves want the Oracle buff to be reverted. There was no reason to decrease the Dark shrine cost with the existence of the MSC, which already allows Protoss to put more gas into tech, and in a much safer way on top of that. As for charged Voids, they deal too much damage to Armored targets (mainly visible vs Corruptors, but Void all-ins are really dumb in PvT too). In short, every all-in is dumb and should be removed. Macro games forever!!!! Idra would approve of this change. Allin should be in the game, but as hard to execute as macro games. Okay I'm sorry but I can't hold myself back. I am unquitting this thread to address this dumbfounding statement. If allins were as hard to execute as a macro game.. WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER ALLIN? There would be literally no reason to ever do it. As it stands, it's 1) allin and risk losing if they scout it but have an easier time if they don't 2) don't allin and rely on your superior skill to beat your opponent. There is a tradeoff. Risk losing if they scout and defend / reward if they don't scout or don't know how to react properly. If allins required as much skill then you would never allin, because there would be no upside in doing so. You'd have the same chances of winning in a macro game, and you wouldn't automatically lose just from being scouted. This applies to allins from all races. Starbuck vs. MMA from yesterday was a good example. Obviously Starbuck is not as good as MMA so he took a risk on 2 allins to try and win. G2 it payed off. G3 it ALMOST payed off, but MMA is a beast. Because currently the risk/reward for allins in PvT is like this: free win if unscouted still very hard to hold even scouted. there is very little "risk losing" because of photon overcharge even when terran defends You are so wrong on so many levels. Watch Bomber vs. Has and tell me how much of a difference Photon overcharge made. I actually did watch Bomber vs Has and all I saw was the vast disparity between the players skills. Are you saying that TvP is ok when you are 10x better than the Protoss player?
No. I'm saying that when you defend an all-in correctly, as a better player does, Photon Overcharge is meaningless. Often people will say that Protoss can fall back on Photon Overcharge if their allin fails. This is just an example of that being untrue.
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EPT
