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On March 08 2014 00:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote:
Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability. Maps have always had those layouts. They never were broken until the MsC. Here is a list of all GSL maps ever used. For the second half (the maps that have been usually quite balanced more or less) I have marked all maps that have such a layout. And I have actually been quite strict, not including maps like Ohana or Icarus or others which are not bad for those rushes either. + Show Spoiler +Kulas Ravine
Desert Oasis
Blistering Sands
Steppes of War
Lost Temple
Delta Quadrant
Scrap Station
Metalopolis
Xel'Naga Caverns
Shakuras Plateau
Jungle Basin
Crevasse
Crossfire SE
Tal'Darim Altar
Terminus RE
Dual Sight
Xel'Naga Fortress
Bel'Shir Beach Daybreak Calm Before the Storm Cloud Kingdom Entombed Valley Metropolis ESV Ohana Atlantis Spaceship Whirlwind Abyssal City Bel'Shir Vestige Akilon Wastes/Flats Icarus Neo Planet S Star Station Atlas Red City Anaconda Gwangalli BeachNewkirk Redevelopment Precinct Derelict WatcherFrostPolar NightYeonsuAlterzim Stronghold Daedalus Point Habitation Station Heavy Rain
Before MsC those layouts were more acceptable. You needed a Robo for the high ground vision. Therefore the Blink allin was easier to scout and easier to defend because you needed more tech and you could only do it off one base to hit in time.
Now the layouts are too favorable for Protoss. In order to make Blink allins not viable at all (I think they should be viable at a certain level but this is for argument's sake), you'd have to Nerf Blink/MsC into the ground to a point where they were no longer useful in all 3 matchups. Rather than doing that, why don't we just make the maps a little less blink friendly. Make it so only a few of the maps make blink viable and for the ones where it's viable, don't have a ginormous ramp like on heavy rain where a Terran can build 4 bunkers and still lose.
It's not the strength of the allins that is so strong right now.. it's the commitment it takes to defend them while at the same time not knowing for sure if they're coming. Make it so Terran doesn't have to account for every allin on every map and I guarantee people will be happy.
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On March 07 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 06:55 YyapSsap wrote:On March 07 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote:On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote:
That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing. Sigh, this is what I was just explaining. Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in. The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places. The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know. The Blink Allin has been nerfed. The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build. The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit. All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want. Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers. Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap. This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build.. One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build.
Most stupid thing ive heard in a while. Please stop spamming this thread and go play a little bit more.
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Saying maps alone are responsible for the prevalence of Blink timings in PvT is rewriting history. Maps like Akilon Wastes, Star Station or even Derelict were good maps for Blink and were already here at the beginning of HotS. The other determinant factors are:
- The increasing scarcity of Mine drops (combination of Protoss learning how to defend them while remaining ahead and the Mine nerf; even post-buff Mine drops are not as potent as they used to be), which makes builds skipping detection legit.
- The popularity of Oracle openings, creating another simultaneous deadly threat requiring specific defensive measures that lose to Blink (i. e. early EB + 1/2 Turrets, see for instance HerO vs Bogus, Frost, IEM Cologne or + Show Spoiler [Code S RO16] +Bbyong vs herO, Alterzim, Code S RO16
- The fact that it took time for Protoss to fully exploit all the nonsense MSC allows them. Compare for instance the current Protoss builds with the ones that were used at the first MLG. 2-bases Blink had to be crafted as well.
Maps are only one factor among those. If you were to reintroduce the old Mine in the current map pool, for instance, things like 4-5-6-7g Blink would practically disappear because a simple Mine drop would slaughter them, and that simple threat would make Blink openings much rarer.
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Austria24422 Posts
My experience so far:
- The MSC nerf is ok in PvT, it still does the scouting just fine in most cases. All you really need is to figure out if it's a 1rax -> factory or not, everything afterwards can be done with an observer scout or a hallucination if you want to do that.
In PvP it's annoying as hell. On some maps it's extremely easy to narrow down where the MSC can come from to scout (Frost close by air for example) and in those cases it becomes virtually impossible to get a scout off on their tech and recall because the first stalker will kill it if you commit. It just makes everything so much more coinflippy. A 2gate msc opening can be absolutely everything and most of the time that's the only thing you'll get to see without taking a risk that can kill you if it backfires.
- I played against bio/mine (both 3rax and 5rax -> 3rd CC) yesterday with blink into templar and it definitely makes the build a lot harder to pull off. You can never kill the mines unless you squeeze in a robo and a few observers (one is NOT reliable, my observers constantly got scanned, especially by the 3rax -> 3rd CC version). That robo would usually have been delayed until right before/after you take your third (HerO vs Polt at IEM for example) and gets a warp prism first to put on some counteraggression. Your warp prism aggression is very delayed with this now even though the robo has to be built in earlier, just because you use the build time for observers that cut into your gas and thus your templar count (which means you may need to consider also building an immortal or two to be safe AND you need to keep more units at home because you have fewer storms). Both games turned into very TvZ-esque micro battles (I won both games by defending until colossus tech and then doing a big timing with colossus, templar, charge and +3 armor).
Most affected by this will still be oracle -> charge/templar because oracles are NOT reliable detection in fights, they get sniped extremely easily by both marines and mines which means a single mistake with the oracle leaves you with absolutely no detection.
What most profits from the mine change is the Taeja and Maru-like "be in their face the whole game, keep them away from a third for as long as possible, trade, trade, trade" style simply because mines are not the most expensive unit to mix into it but very very effective.
- The hydra buff just makes any early hydra timings on protoss third bases stronger which I don't think is a good change. There's already very few ways for protoss to take a safe third without taking risks and the multitude of different timings against said third that zerg can do (+1 speedling, ling/hydra, roach/ling, roach/corruptor, even mass speedling/corruptor) all require different responses that not every build accounts for. I don't think this is a change that was needed at all and it only limits protoss options of taking a safe third even more.
- Overall I'm fine with the changes. Blink openings may need a little more work, I personally feel like a timewarp nerf (duration, maybe radius) would do a lot for all matchups. It's an unforgiving ability.
I don't know how you would address proxy tech all ins in PvT other than straight up nerfing overcharge to make them more of a gamble... But then PvP and potentially PvZ would be entirely screwed.
Oracle openings... I dunno, maybe a cheap speed upgrade at the cybernetics core with them starting at their old speed but a little reduced in cost? I think that would be a cool change. You could still use oracles as a map control unit, even as a cheese unit, but it wouldn't be as unforgiving immediately, it would leave some time for terran to prepare for it and you'd really have to decide whether or not you want to contain terran more heavily with a super fast oracle or just a softer, perhaps a little cheaper oracle.
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Why should we care whether PvP is screwed? And I see no reason why the overcharge nerf would change PvZ.
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You can't just blame maps for the overuse of blink all-ins. Those maps allow interresting things like reaper harass/scout, elevator via dropship/warpprism, fast pathing for colossi, etc...
We can't just throw all this away for the sake of blink stalker all-ins being too strong.
In my opinion the only reasonable change would be a +60sec research time on blink (30sec only if fully chronoboosted, but that means less chronoboosts for gateways) that would allow terran to have one more round of marines/maraudeurs and more time to build in-base bunkers before the protoss can blink in.
Sure it would delay emergency blink research against muta switch, but that's not very relevant in today's metagame.
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On March 07 2014 23:42 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote:
Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability. This is what Protoss players have been saying all along. The map pool vastly favours blink over any other style. The map pool right now is like having 5/7 maps during the 1/1/1 era be of the same structure as Xel'Naga Fortress or Dual Sight. Obviously it is going to skew the matchup. And just like the 1/1/1 era, a small balance change (+1 immortal range in that case, mothership core vision nerf to make blink all-in less safe here) along with a change in maps will likely solve the issue completely. Before we had issues with too many maps being structured like Daybreak. Now we have too many maps in the pool structured like Yeonsu. It's a fairly straightforward issue. Think about it. This TvP blink issue only started after the last 2013 season of WCS started with some of the maps that still remain in the pool now. Prior to that the matchup was fairly even. If we look at the WCS 2013 Season 2 maps it becomes fairly obvious. For Red City, the only place to blink into the main is right at the ramp near the natural. For Korhal Sky Island (well for the "normal" positions, not the goofy ones), you can't blink into the main at all (or just barely if you can, kinda like Habitation Station). Newkirk had one small edge near the ramp to blink into, and a small area around the side but you could only blink a few stalkers at a time. Likewise for Neo Planet S, one edge near the ramp in the main. Bel'Shir we did see blink a bit on, but it was much more defendable because there was only one access point to the main. Whirlwind you could blink one stalker at a time into the main from the third and that was about it. Basically it boils down to, if you triple the amount of space required to be defended for a given all-in, it becomes vastly more difficult to hold that all-in. If we look at Yeonsu, if there was no ground around the main where that little ramp for reapers (and common place for cannon rushes in PvP. That area down the ramp from the high ground third) is, then the amount of space required to be defended for blink on that map would halve at least. Small tweaks to the map pool could easily solve the issues with the matchup.
I agree. Yeonsu and Heavy Rain are probably too blink-friendly. It's a similar problem to how Deadalus was too good for Zerg. It should be simple to release revised edition maps that still allow for blink play, without making it too strong.
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Austria24422 Posts
Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it.
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Agree with DarkLordOlli... PvP is really annoying now and I've just been skipping the MsC altogether and going for 3G Stargate openings. The sight range is so small that you now need to commit really hard to get any scouting information. In which case you get in, see his allin coming and then lose because you don't have energy for the PO... -____-;
Re blink allins:
Why do more Terrans not build a sensor tower? Seriously... the few times I've seen people do it to hold off Blink Stalker allins it's been really good.
You can tell exactly how many Stalkers there are and what angle they are approaching from, which lets you follow them around with your whole army instead of splitting your army in half into bunkers (which means you don't have to spend as much money on bunkers). It also lets you know how commital the Protoss attack is.
EDIT - and LOL at the guy who said he doesn't care about PvP. You may be a whiny, bitter Terran player, but all the matchups need to be balanced, not just the ones you play. PvP is actually somewhat enjoyable to watch and play now. For about a third of StarCraft players, that's really important.
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And at which point should bbyong had build the sensor tower in today's games?
You mean instead of the spatioport he should have gone for sensor tower? yeah, great idea, problem is, he was dead 30sec after the factory was finished so a sensor tower would have changed nothing (if we suppose he would have had the time to finish building it)...
And even if he was not dead at that time, delaying your spatioport to build a sensor tower (100gas) is a very bad idea since you tend to overstim your units to defend the P blinks-in.
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On March 08 2014 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it.
Err, hellbats introduced and hellbats removed. I don't think it's difficult to find other examples.
I'll leave the PvZ arguing to Z's.
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Austria24422 Posts
On March 08 2014 01:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it. Err, hellbats introduced and hellbats removed. I don't think it's difficult to find other examples. I'll leave the PvZ arguing to Z's.
Besides, the argument that "we don't care about PvP" is a terrible one to begin with. When terrans complain about mech being too dominant in TvT, should people say the same thing?
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On March 08 2014 01:05 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:02 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 08 2014 00:54 DarkLordOlli wrote:
Whether you care about PvP or not doesn't matter, Blizzard is not going to make a change that "saves" one matchup when they know that another will be thrown into complete chaos.
An overcharge nerf would screw with PvZ hard. Gateway expands rely on overcharge to defend you. You already can't use overcharge to defend the buildings at your ramp on Daedalus point for example (which is the main reason why I still don't gateway expand on the map). Any zerg timing on a protoss third with nerfed overcharge would be much, much stronger, no matter how you nerf it. Err, hellbats introduced and hellbats removed. I don't think it's difficult to find other examples. I'll leave the PvZ arguing to Z's. Besides, the argument that "we don't care about PvP" is a terrible one to begin with. When terrans complain about mech being too dominant in TvT, should people say the same thing?
Yes, obviously. Fixing a MU should not break another. This is why people like TLO like the new WM change so much. And why people disliked the hellbat nerf as it was, as it clearly neutered them also in TvZ and TvP.
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But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
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On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL.
Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change.
I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ.
I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
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I love hearing about PvP and the frustration protoss players have with the wide variety of strategies and the inability to scout.
Welcome to terran motherfuckers.
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MSC shouldn't be able to leave the nexus, like it was done in the beta => no vision at 5', no retarded timewarp, still Overcharge to defend. In other word, much better that it was in WoL, but way less OP than it is now.
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On March 08 2014 01:46 Faust852 wrote:
MSC shouldn't be able to leave the nexus, like it was done in the beta => no vision at 5', no retarded timewarp, still Overcharge to defend. In other word, much better that it was in WoL, but way less OP than it is now.
I think that time warp should just be deleted. That would make the MSC a lot less stupid, cause i don't know anyone who can argue that FF just are not enough. Because they probably won´t take it out MSC should not be able to cast it twice in a battle. TW and FF--> bye-bye micro.
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On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change. I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first?
Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
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On March 08 2014 01:56 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2014 01:32 DinoMight wrote:On March 08 2014 01:21 Grumbels wrote:
But for ages protoss players have said that you can't possibly change anything about their race because of PvP.
The new MsC still leaves protoss with much better scouting than in WoL, so I find it hard to believe that PvP will end up extremely horrible when it was still okay in WoL. Oracles, much cheaper DTs, Void Ray change. I know a lot of people don't care about PvP, but us Protoss players actually play and watch a lot of it (because it can be a very frustrating matchup). All the talk of how MsC impacts PvP is not just meaningless QQ. I don't think whether or not something was viable in WoL is really relevant anymore. There are new units, new maps, and a new metagame because of it. For example, there are some builds that were viable in PvT in Wings that are just not viable anymore because of the Reaper redesign. When was the last time you saw a Nexus first? Wow, such change. I really doubt that PvP will be strongly affected, most of the builds you just commit to without scouting anyway, so PvP as coinflip match-up is partly independent of scouting. You still have hallucination, probes, zealot and stalker pressure and MsC.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I don't mean it as an insult. I just mean it's apparent from your comments that you have spent very little time playing/watching PvP. Watch HerO vs. Rain G1 from IEM Cologne and tell me how Rain possibly wins that game with a nerfed MsC. It's a huge change and significantly reduces the amount of information the players have available when making early game decisions.
You pick a tech path, sure, but as you scout what tech path your opponent chose you have to figure out what your role is and what his role is. One will be the aggressor and one will be the defender. If your opponent went Twilight and you went Stargate, you need to know if there are DTs coming and you need to make an Oracle rather than a Phoenix. So while the tech path itself might be chosen blind, there are still many scouting dependent decisions that need to be made.
Probes get denied by the first Stalker, Hallucinations are good at scouting some tech but can fuck you over in other cases (if there's a warpgate rush you'll have no forcefield), Zealot/Stalker Pressure doesn't make it past the ramp let alone into the back corner of the base where the tech is hidden.
In TvP, you're pretty much always going for marines, marauders, and medivacs... and yet you feel so helpless at the beginning of the game! Now imagine that same feeling only you don't know what composition you're even going for. That's PvP.
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