EPTNext Balance Patch the 28th February. - Page 35
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djraphi23
France2262 Posts
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:55 djraphi23 wrote: That's why it's called "all-in". It's all or nothing. Sigh, this is what I was just explaining. Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in. The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places. The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know. The Blink Allin has been nerfed. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10121 Posts
On March 06 2014 10:20 Plansix wrote: Don't you know, you dont' comment on changes or provide insightful feedback. You are Protoss. You take your nerfs and like it. In silence! That's the terran way. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24965 Posts
The WM change looks interesting too, biomine forces different ways of engaging from both sides potentially so I like the possibilities there. | ||
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YyapSsap
New Zealand1511 Posts
On March 07 2014 02:17 DinoMight wrote: Sigh, this is what I was just explaining. Getting Blink and walking over to the front of a Terran's base with 4 Stalkers is not a Blink allin. Making lots of Blink Stalkers and Blinking into a Terran's base with the intent to kill him IS a blink all-in. The Blink Allin itself was not overpowered. Rather, it was the ability to get blink, and NOT COMMIT while the Terran was forced to prepare to defend just in case that was overpowered, especially given the maps. This was easy to do because the MsC sigh range allowed you to judge whether you should commit or not and facilitated the execution of the build by letting you blink in the right places. The MsC sight reduction makes it much harder to judge whether the Terran is prepared, so if you're going to do a Blink ALLIN (make the stalkers, actually blink into his base) there is a higher chance you will lose the game because your opponent is prepared and you didn't know. The Blink Allin has been nerfed. The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build. The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit. All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want. Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers. Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap. This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build.. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 07 2014 06:55 YyapSsap wrote: The thing is that the protoss could easily commit at any given moment with this "aggression". That is why its such a strong if not overpowered build. The 2 base stalker/MSC aggression effectively comes before the medivacs are out and it can result in 1) Just containing the Terran, forcing them to make defenses and have scvs pulled for along time. 2) Outright kill the Terran if the SCV/defense is late or they greed just even a little bit. All in the awhile the protoss economy is not touched while teching to whatever they want. Judging from Zest vs Maru in game 1 last night, the MSC sight reduction does help the Terran a little (since it doesn't reveal half the Terran base) but in no way shape or form is the aggression any weaker. Preparing for the blink aggression is hard from a Terran perspective. Theres no CC PO or anything. Preparing defense means slowing down the tech and hurting the eco where the aggression might not even come at all. The wrong move can be easily game ending where as for the protoss its not as game ending as you make it out to be unless one simply move commands the stalkers. Then there is timewarp.. so committing in sniping the MSC can be a trap. This is the problem with Protoss at the moment. They can apply these "pressure" builds (even with gas first proxy oracles) which can sometimes outright kill the Terran. If not its already doing heaps of damage indirectly. Nothing in the Terran side can do any of the above. A simple MSC/stalker/zealot poke can often be game ending if the Terran deviates away from the normal safe build.. One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build. | ||
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dabom88
United States3483 Posts
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On March 07 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote: One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build. And so can dt and 25other units Zest vs maru game1. Toss ahead, without "doing anything". The winner is irrelevant. You dont see this as a problem? | ||
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BurningRanger
Germany303 Posts
On March 07 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote: One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build. That depends on what the standard build would be. Is there one in PvT? Which one (just curious)? As long as the deviation includes either a Robo (Observer), a Stargate (Oracle) or a Forge (Cannons), Protoss is fine. I think there's quite much just 1 common build that doesn't include them, which would be a 1-base Blink Stalker + MSC push. The Terran side of things looks a bit different. Usually a Terran does not build something to detect in the earlygame, if he doesn't scout a reason for it. That kinda includes scans in the way that the Terran will not safe a scan, if he thinks he doesn't need it. This goes even so far that a Terran may lose to a push that doesn't require detection to hold (e.g. 4G Blink Stalker + MSC push), because he "wasted" resources on building detection blindly. And then there's the dps part. Compare the dps of a Banshee to that of a DT. A Cloakshee in the Protoss' mineral line is hardly ever game ending. A DT in the Terran's quite often is. With Banshees there's also the option for Protoss to run the Probes away and come back, when Cloak ran out. With DTs that's not possible... not even talking about the speed of a DT here. | ||
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RaZorwire
Sweden718 Posts
On March 07 2014 11:03 DinoMight wrote: One banshee can be deadly if Protoss deviates from the standard build. Please compare how many banshee-wins we've seen in pro-level TvP with how many blink-stalker wins we've seen in pro-level PvT in the past six months. | ||
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Moobla
United States186 Posts
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Xarles
459 Posts
On March 07 2014 19:51 Moobla wrote: It'll be funny to watch terrans cloak a ghost, nuke, then surround the ghost with widow mines. I'd love to see a mass blink in on that. | ||
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VieuxSinge
France231 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:51 DinoMight wrote: THIS IS A REALLY BIG CHANGE! The knock on the blink-allin was that it wasn't all-in enough. You could scout if the Terran was preparing to defend it and then just NOT make the Stalkers and go to Storm while continuing to fake the allin. Now with the reduced MsC vision (and it's very reduced) it's much harder to judge how prepared your opponent is. So it becomes way more commital. A failed commital Blink allin is 99.9% GG. as you can see with herO vs Bbyong in GSL, 1 base blink and 2 base blink still works perfectly. In fact, it works so well herO never does anything else | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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imrusty269
United States1404 Posts
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Phaenoman
568 Posts
On March 07 2014 22:29 imrusty269 wrote: So I heard the new MSC is BLIND? I'd try reading the patch notes again... | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: This is what Protoss players have been saying all along. The map pool vastly favours blink over any other style. The map pool right now is like having 5/7 maps during the 1/1/1 era be of the same structure as Xel'Naga Fortress or Dual Sight. Obviously it is going to skew the matchup. And just like the 1/1/1 era, a small balance change (+1 immortal range in that case, mothership core vision nerf to make blink all-in less safe here) along with a change in maps will likely solve the issue completely. Before we had issues with too many maps being structured like Daybreak. Now we have too many maps in the pool structured like Yeonsu. It's a fairly straightforward issue.Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability. Think about it. This TvP blink issue only started after the last 2013 season of WCS started with some of the maps that still remain in the pool now. Prior to that the matchup was fairly even. If we look at the WCS 2013 Season 2 maps it becomes fairly obvious. For Red City, the only place to blink into the main is right at the ramp near the natural. For Korhal Sky Island (well for the "normal" positions, not the goofy ones), you can't blink into the main at all (or just barely if you can, kinda like Habitation Station). Newkirk had one small edge near the ramp to blink into, and a small area around the side but you could only blink a few stalkers at a time. Likewise for Neo Planet S, one edge near the ramp in the main. Bel'Shir we did see blink a bit on, but it was much more defendable because there was only one access point to the main. Whirlwind you could blink one stalker at a time into the main from the third and that was about it. Basically it boils down to, if you triple the amount of space required to be defended for a given all-in, it becomes vastly more difficult to hold that all-in. If we look at Yeonsu, if there was no ground around the main where that little ramp for reapers (and common place for cannon rushes in PvP. That area down the ramp from the high ground third) is, then the amount of space required to be defended for blink on that map would halve at least. Small tweaks to the map pool could easily solve the issues with the matchup. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability. X10000000000000000 I have been saying this basically since the new maps were introduced. Heavy Rain is so good for Blink because of the huge surface area that Terran has to defend. On Neo Planet S, if you identified a Blink allin you basically won 100% of the time. With the new maps they are actually so good for it that you can still lose. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On March 07 2014 22:29 imrusty269 wrote: So I heard the new MSC is BLIND? It sees very little compared to before. The new sight area is 40% of what it used to be. Basically it has the same sight range as a Marine now. Because of how slow it moves it's actually quite easy to lose it to some marines if you're not careful. So it will take some getting used to. But I can live with it if Terrans stop whining =) | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 07 2014 22:23 Faust852 wrote: Yep, I still think blink openings are OP.But they can't never nerf blink or it will become useless in all 3 match up. The only way is changing map, cuz right now map are really shitty and way too protoss favored. Old map like Belshir didn't allowed blink hat easily. Blink in Habitation is bad too. It's not that hard to modify current mappool to remove this huge blink hability. Maps have always had those layouts. They never were broken until the MsC. Here is a list of all GSL maps ever used. For the second half (the maps that have been usually quite balanced more or less) I have marked all maps that have such a layout. And I have actually been quite strict, not including maps like Ohana or Icarus or others which are not bad for those rushes either. + Show Spoiler + Kulas Ravine Desert Oasis Blistering Sands Steppes of War Lost Temple Delta Quadrant Scrap Station Metalopolis Xel'Naga Caverns Shakuras Plateau Jungle Basin Crevasse Crossfire SE Tal'Darim Altar Terminus RE Dual Sight Xel'Naga Fortress Bel'Shir Beach Antiga Shipyard Daybreak Calm Before the Storm Cloud Kingdom Entombed Valley Metropolis ESV Ohana Atlantis Spaceship Whirlwind Abyssal City Bel'Shir Vestige Akilon Wastes/Flats Icarus Neo Planet S Star Station Atlas Red City Anaconda Gwangalli Beach Newkirk Redevelopment Precinct Derelict Watcher Frost Polar Night Yeonsu Alterzim Stronghold Daedalus Point Habitation Station Heavy Rain | ||
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