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On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote:
These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough.
I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now?
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One storm+1zealot hit/stalker hit = Widowmine dead.
Pretty cool if we start to see this kind of micro.
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On February 27 2014 03:03 Foxxan wrote:
One storm+1zealot hit/stalker hit = Widowmine dead.
Pretty cool if we start to see this kind of micro.
Making Templar use up storms on mine fields could be an interesting dynamic as well.
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On February 26 2014 19:39 Nebuchad wrote:
It's what I was expecting, especially the blink cooldown not increasing. I think the game is going to look very very good after that. I could be wrong but I don't think the hydra buff will make that large a difference. And I enjoy hydra PvZ more than SH PvZ anyway so I can take it.
The three changes are big, mate. It will take about 2 - 3 months before the game settles into it's new form. Basically, DK has thrown some big stones into the SC2 pond and it will take a while for the ripples to settle.
The Hydra buff, IIRC, is comparable to a +1 attack buff. Although, DK in his notes indicates that this is primarily for TvZ, I think it will prove to be more effective in PvZ. The WM buff will make a big difference in PvT play. Protoss should expect a fair few losses in the coming months as we start to learn how to deal with all this. A lot of settled builds will be tweaked or removed.
I do hope, in time, that they will return the MSC vision to 11 (this really peeves me off). And if SCV pulls once again become dominant in PvT, heck we may even finally see that Stalker buff I have been wanting for well over 2 years now. :D
But, yeah. Interesting times ahead. Whatever happens, I hope they leave the game well alone for the next 3 months at least.
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On February 27 2014 03:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote:
These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough. I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now?
Hydras will do the exact same thing they do now, only they will kill zealots and non-blink stalkers slightly faster. They will still die to chargelots with FF, still die to colossus, still die to rays when they hit critical mass, still die to storm, still be generally overpriced and all around shit.
Queens are the best zerg AA now and will be so on saturday. The hydra buff will change nothing with how ZvP is played. Protoss who are up in arms about this either have no idea how this affects them(it doesn't) or are just not very well informed about the game. This has to be the most overrated change of all, the mine change is far more impactful.
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On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch.
LOL. A protoss player says " Enough. No more nerf."
Sorry. I don't think the nerf is enough.
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On February 27 2014 03:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 03:03 Foxxan wrote:
One storm+1zealot hit/stalker hit = Widowmine dead.
Pretty cool if we start to see this kind of micro. Making Templar use up storms on mine fields could be an interesting dynamic as well.
This is super annoying and feels really weird especially if you're being chased.
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On February 27 2014 02:53 fireforce7 wrote:
although I approve of the widowmine damage...I feel like although it buffs a "mech" unit, it will be more used with Bio in tvp instead of mech. It also feels like hellbats are just getting phased out in tvp even more because then it comes down to "do I want hellbats to deal with chargelots, or widowmines to try and deal with everything". was hoping for a buff to another unit in mech I guess...most notably the tank.
The mine is buffed with bio in mind; there've been some games where people use mines vs detectionless Protoss and put on massive pressure by having a good splash weapon when retreating vs Zealots.
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On February 27 2014 03:17 bearhug wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. LOL. A protoss player says " Enough. No more nerf." Sorry. I don't think the nerf is enough.
LOL. A terran player says "No, nerf Toss into oblivion!"
Sorry, I don't think more nerfs are needed.
What else do you seriously want to make the game balanced?
Plus, where does he say that this is enough of a nerf?
EDIT: Upon further inspection this post was in poor taste, but posts like the above are really frustrating to read.
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On February 27 2014 03:26 Wingblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 03:17 bearhug wrote:On February 26 2014 04:35 DonFonzy wrote:
Have played seneral matches as both terran and toss with friends on test map.
1. MSC nerf is FREAKING HUGE. My god I think a lot of people dont grasp just how much site is gonna be lost. WIll make Blink all-ins much riskier to execute do to the MSC having to go into the actual danger zone to give site.
2. WM nerf will be a noce buff to terran harass. I loved doing WM drops in TvP anyway and hated them in PvT, so I think this change will make terran mid game much scaryier. The New WM's will also make roboless chargelot archon timings very risky and much easier to hold.
3. Hydra buff %&^$s all over my PvZ with diarrhea level potency. Gonna have to rethink how I play that match up.
Over all should be a powerful patch. LOL. A protoss player says " Enough. No more nerf." Sorry. I don't think the nerf is enough. LOL. A terran player says "No, nerf Toss into oblivion!" Sorry, I don't think more nerfs are needed. What else do you seriously want to make the game balanced? Plus, where does he say that this is enough of a nerf?
Only time will tell if it's not enough or too much, not some theory crafting.
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On February 27 2014 03:17 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 03:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote:
These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough. I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now? Hydras will do the exact same thing they do now, only they will kill zealots and non-blink stalkers slightly faster. They will still die to chargelots with FF, still die to colossus, still die to rays when they hit critical mass, still die to storm, still be generally overpriced and all around shit. Queens are the best zerg AA now and will be so on saturday. The hydra buff will change nothing with how ZvP is played. Protoss who are up in arms about this either have no idea how this affects them(it doesn't) or are just not very well informed about the game. This has to be the most overrated change of all, the mine change is far more impactful.
lol this is such nonsense as well. The change might not be huge but it definately matters for the effectiveness of hydra's. Hydra's will be better, hydra timings will be harder to stop and voidrays will be easier to deal with by hydra's. I don't think it will offset PvZ too much but simply stating it doesn't change a thing is completely moronic.
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On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line. Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro. Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game. I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late 
Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base.
However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately.
It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays.
Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game.
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On February 27 2014 03:41 Markwerf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 03:17 Squat wrote:On February 27 2014 03:01 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 27 2014 02:55 Markwerf wrote:
These are reasonable changes. I do suspect the zerg buff to hydra's will be a little much for ZvP but nothing that can't be fixed by maps probably.
It is still saddening to see that the patch pattern has always reverted to finally just tweaking bio to be strong enough. Mech vs protoss is still a joke and the solution to the matchup now is basically just making 4M good enough. I'm honestly not sure Hydras will be that much more of a danger in PvZ. The timing of when the unit comes out hasn't changed, neither has the HP or armor, so standard Colossus play should still be fine. It *might* make Protoss have to be a tad more careful. Maybe it will make sense now to get double forge earlier for armor or shield upgrades now? Hydras will do the exact same thing they do now, only they will kill zealots and non-blink stalkers slightly faster. They will still die to chargelots with FF, still die to colossus, still die to rays when they hit critical mass, still die to storm, still be generally overpriced and all around shit. Queens are the best zerg AA now and will be so on saturday. The hydra buff will change nothing with how ZvP is played. Protoss who are up in arms about this either have no idea how this affects them(it doesn't) or are just not very well informed about the game. This has to be the most overrated change of all, the mine change is far more impactful. lol this is such nonsense as well. The change might not be huge but it definately matters for the effectiveness of hydra's. Hydra's will be better, hydra timings will be harder to stop and voidrays will be easier to deal with by hydra's. I don't think it will offset PvZ too much but simply stating it doesn't change a thing is completely moronic.
Actually it isn't, but I get that vulgar assertions are easier to make than real points, so that's ok. I never said hydras would not be better, I said that the gameplay won't change as a result. I guess time will tell. Tell you what, let's meet back up here in two months or so and we'll see how it turned out.
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On February 27 2014 04:04 Frex wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line. Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro. Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game. I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base. However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately. It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays. Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game.
And this forces terrans into uneconomical builds so tvp is just playing from behind from the early game into a ridiculous late game. And if you for instance gamble with an early 3rd cc and it doesn't work out because of the millions of allins protoss has, they call you greedy while protoss can take a fast third and tech behind it without producing units............
All of that made possible by just clicking on your nexus. This would be fine if they'd get rid of asymmetrical balance and fixed late game tvp.
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Is this on the ptr? A test video of WM vs probes/zealots/stalkers with current damage and new damage compared would be more valuable than 20 pages of theory craft
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On February 27 2014 04:22 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:04 Frex wrote:On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line. Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro. Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game. I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base. However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately. It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays. Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game. And this forces terrans into uneconomical builds so tvp is just playing from behind from the early game into a ridiculous late game. And if you for instance gamble with an early 3rd cc and it doesn't work out because of the millions of allins protoss has, they call you greedy while protoss can take a fast third and tech behind it without producing units............ All of that made possible by just clicking on your nexus. This would be fine if they'd get rid of asymmetrical balance and fixed late game tvp.
How about dealing damage with medivac + stim.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On February 27 2014 04:25 Lobotomist wrote:
Is this on the ptr? A test video of WM vs probes/zealots/stalkers with current damage and new damage compared would be more valuable than 20 pages of theory craft
http://imgur.com/a/Wn9rN
except tempest and blink changes
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On February 27 2014 04:41 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 27 2014 04:22 PanzerElite wrote:On February 27 2014 04:04 Frex wrote:On February 27 2014 00:11 tar wrote:On February 27 2014 00:02 vthree wrote:On February 26 2014 23:44 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 26 2014 22:37 Yrr wrote:
I do agree with the widow mine buff in terms of army fights but I dont like the fact that it drastically increases the potential damage of widow mine drops in a mineral line. Just stop bringing that nonsense argument up. The mine was stronger vs mineral lines before the radius nerf than after the +shields; so quit whining over something that wasn't OP vs your race in the first place becoming slightly less bad. Learn to micro. Not sure why Protoss are complaining about widows mines when the oracle can do much more damage at an earlier timing, is more mobile plus has revelation. Yes, the widow mine will be better in straight up fights, but in terms of harassing mineral lines, oracle is the best unit in the game. I guess you have never experienced the pain of 12 probes getting instantly evaporated because you pulled them a split second too late Pro terrans has lost to 10 gate openings, oracle rush and DTs during the last few months. All from one base. However, I haven´t seen any protoss lose to 1 base play from terran lately. It is really frustfrating to see protoss whine already before the patch because they currently have the biggest treats in that match-up. There is basically no viable opening/all-in to kill protoss before the game transitions to the normal templar / zealot play. This is why protoss don´t even bother to scout nowadays. Now we for a long time terran might have tools that are serious threat to protoss and so many protoss starts raging. I don´t even want to think how many different ways I have seen protoss kill terran in the first 10 minutes of the game. And this forces terrans into uneconomical builds so tvp is just playing from behind from the early game into a ridiculous late game. And if you for instance gamble with an early 3rd cc and it doesn't work out because of the millions of allins protoss has, they call you greedy while protoss can take a fast third and tech behind it without producing units............ All of that made possible by just clicking on your nexus. This would be fine if they'd get rid of asymmetrical balance and fixed late game tvp. How about dealing damage with medivac + stim.
how about clicking on the nexus+storm and some zealots
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On February 27 2014 01:14 vthree wrote:
Sure, Protoss will lose probes if mines get in the mineral line. But 12 probes to a single mine? Yeah, that is just bad play. I mean hellions are OP too if they get in the base and you line up your workers.
No it's not a bad play, it means late reaction, or more precise - a bad or not good execution of a good play..
It's hard to notice when is too late to pull probes - sometimes you leave 1 probe and pull the rest, sometimes it's even better if you did nothing in the first place.. As he says - it's true - if you're late a split second at running away - Probes clump up as every single unit in the game that is on move command
So yah - don't bash him up for that - happens.. The issue with that is - you better do nothing and lose like 4 probes instead of much more cause of being a bit late, so that's THE problem.. Against storms you will lose your Marines regardless if you play bad or don't play.. This is different - Mines chase the target farther than they are initiated so a "snowball" effect is possible if you run away but not far enough.. Same problem can have the Zerg as well with the HSMs.. only that the difference is - the target is highlighted so you can click it and run away..
He's not whining, he's just telling a point.. and some experiences in the past
Which is overall a unit-desing problem on a design level - the game that treats the workers same as light units overall..
True that the pros of the change are way bigger than cons (or at least tend to be) and overall It's way better like this with the change, but he's not just whining or trolling, but actually he's having a valid point there..
And he didn't mention Hellions, so don't mention that.. Both players have to control the units in that case, here, that's not the case
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EPT
