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On February 18 2014 21:40 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places  ). You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers. We are defending ESL because it's not justice to harass them while they aren't responsible for the current status. We said that DM should make a move with Blizzard to obtain a partnership, at least for french based viewership, but this suggestion is being ignored quite hard, people prefer to bash ESL for no reason.
But that is exactly what I am talking about. It is irrelevant who is responsible, this is not the final judgement, so assigment of guilt doesn't change anything. On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people. Using words like "harass" is not appropriate, we don't have to be careful around them not to hurt their feelings.
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On February 18 2014 21:53 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 21:40 Faust852 wrote:On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ). You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers. We are defending ESL because it's not justice to harass them while they aren't responsible for the current status. We said that DM should make a move with Blizzard to obtain a partnership, at least for french based viewership, but this suggestion is being ignored quite hard, people prefer to bash ESL for no reason. But that is exactly what I am talking about. It is irrelevant who is responsible, this is not the final judgement, so assigment of guilt doesn't change anything. On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation. Again, these are companies, not people. Using words like "harass" is not appropriate, we don't have to be careful around them not to hurt their feelings.
Not sure what your definition of harass incorperates, but according to this dictionary, it incorperates:
to trouble, torment, or confuse by continual persistent attacks, questions, etc
And I second Faust's opinion. Not ESL's fault, so I don't think harassing them is right.
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I guess we will see this evening :D
edit: Or not.
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Oh didn't see it xD Thanks mate!
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On February 18 2014 16:14 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 10:04 Maniak_ wrote:
Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone?
If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS? it was 0 since esl forbid them also to broadcast IEM. but if u look at the wcs america final french stream was second by a large margin.
It may have been 0 from french streams, but I was asking about french *viewership*. Note the difference.
You make it sound as if *no* french viewer is ever watching an english stream. What I'm wondering is how many are *actually* lost when there is no french stream.
How many french are unable to understand an english stream, among viewers of a computer game, computer users where english is prevalent, with a minimum of education where english is the main second language far above anything else?
(as for french who do understand english but refuse to watch an english stream simply because it's not in french... frankly... who cares? it's their choice)
And most importantly, should ESL have to care about the lost viewers, when those would be viewers on a stream that brings nothing to them or their sponsors? (I know, that's not nice, but they're still a company, not a publically funded community service)
On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing.
We're not customers, we're viewers. This is free for us. We're potential customers for the sponsors and advertisers. The sponsors are closer to being the customers for Blizzard/ESL, and Blizzard the customer for ESL.
We're entitled to *asking* to get a better product, and we're entitled to leave if we don't like what we see and nothing is done about it. They're entitled to do whatever the hell they want with their product. If they're fine with losing viewers, however many they are, what do you expect to do about it?
We're not their bosses, they're not our slaves and they don't have to do everything we want. Even if it was possible.
On February 18 2014 21:53 opisska wrote:
On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people.
Yup, these are companies, not people. They deal in numbers.
Sponsors react if they think something may impact, directly or not, their revenues.
ESL&co react according to what their contracts, agreements, etc. allow them to do while bringing them enough revenue to make it viable. They won't ever please everyone since we're not living with unicorns.
If locking everyone to Twitch ends up with more costs than gains, including potential costs brought to attention by politely telling them that you won't be able to watch because of this, changes will be made.
Having a bunch of kids throwing crap at them because someone told them to, without knowing what's actually happening behind the scenes has little to no chance of accomplishing anything. And it shouldn't.
Again, no one is saying that it wouldn't be better to have a french-speaking stream available (well, no one *should* be saying it ). But if the different parties can't come to an agreement (which is between them), there is no french-speaking stream and it seriously affects viewership, added to polite community support by those affected, *this* may help move things along. Throwing blame around and acting like entitled little kids will not.
This ship has sailed for Round A, maybe once viewership numbers by country are in, something will change? Maybe later? Maybe next season? Maybe never? Maybe there are still actual discussions going on in the background and they will end up with an agreement without needing a global war on ESL? Who knows?
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On February 18 2014 23:36 klup wrote:
I don't mind ToD casting on his own but it feels kind of weird.
That made me curious (well the original version where you were saying that it'd be more fun with the usual french casters).
If, clearly hypothetically speaking, ESL added their own french-speaking stream, casted by a french pro player, would you *still* be asking for the same thing?
That would shift the issue from not having a french-speaking stream to not having a specific team of casters. Not exactly the same thing.
Then again, this is purely theoretical. As good as ToD is, it may be a bit much for a single person
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On February 18 2014 23:34 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 16:14 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 10:04 Maniak_ wrote:
Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone?
If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS? it was 0 since esl forbid them also to broadcast IEM. but if u look at the wcs america final french stream was second by a large margin. It may have been 0 from french streams, but I was asking about french *viewership*. Note the difference. You make it sound as if *no* french viewer is ever watching an english stream. What I'm wondering is how many are *actually* lost when there is no french stream. How many french are unable to understand an english stream, among viewers of a computer game, computer users where english is prevalent, with a minimum of education where english is the main second language far above anything else? (as for french who do understand english but refuse to watch an english stream simply because it's not in french... frankly... who cares? it's their choice) And most importantly, should ESL have to care about the lost viewers, when those would be viewers on a stream that brings nothing to them or their sponsors? (I know, that's not nice, but they're still a company, not a publically funded community service) Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. We're not customers, we're viewers. This is free for us. We're potential customers for the sponsors and advertisers. The sponsors are closer to being the customers for Blizzard/ESL, and Blizzard the customer for ESL. We're entitled to *asking* to get a better product, and we're entitled to leave if we don't like what we see and nothing is done about it. They're entitled to do whatever the hell they want with their product. If they're fine with losing viewers, however many they are, what do you expect to do about it? We're not their bosses, they're not our slaves and they don't have to do everything we want. Even if it was possible. Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 21:53 opisska wrote:
On the other hand, I find it hard to belive that ESL can't really do anything - maybe if they are pressured enough, they will be forced to try to push their other partners to dela with the situation.
Again, these are companies, not people. Yup, these are companies, not people. They deal in numbers. Sponsors react if they think something may impact, directly or not, their revenues. ESL&co react according to what their contracts, agreements, etc. allow them to do while bringing them enough revenue to make it viable. They won't ever please everyone since we're not living with unicorns. If locking everyone to Twitch ends up with more costs than gains, including potential costs brought to attention by politely telling them that you won't be able to watch because of this, changes will be made. Having a bunch of kids throwing crap at them because someone told them to, without knowing what's actually happening behind the scenes has little to no chance of accomplishing anything. And it shouldn't. Again, no one is saying that it wouldn't be better to have a french-speaking stream available (well, no one *should* be saying it ). But if the different parties can't come to an agreement (which is between them), there is no french-speaking stream and it seriously affects viewership, added to polite community support by those affected, *this* may help move things along. Throwing blame around and acting like entitled little kids will not. This ship has sailed for Round A, maybe once viewership numbers by country are in, something will change? Maybe later? Maybe next season? Maybe never? Maybe there are still actual discussions going on in the background and they will end up with an agreement without needing a global war on ESL? Who knows?
I fully agree with everything you wrote. If you are French (as stated next to your username), you should know that such "drama" (for lack of a better word) are fairly regular in the French scene, sadly. I honestly think Millenium and o'gaming do a good job when they host a SC2 related show. It looks great and I understand it costs a lot and they need to get some money to compensate.
However, I do not watch many French streams (I barely watch any streams at all to be honest ^^) and I can live without it. I am sure that there are a lot of people who would prefer to watch those streams over English speaking ones, but a they would watch English streams if there is no alternative.(even though Twitch lags a lot for me, really, and it s annoying, and I think it s the same for a lot of us).
Attacking Blizzard/ESL is useless and actually counterproductive. This is something between the French streams and the WCS EU organisation, and the community should not get involved. As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody.
I hope this gets sorted out in a professional manner and not in a whining fest!
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On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ). You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
You should understand how business works. People that 'jump in' and defend ESL understand that the french community is asking ESL/Blizzard to probably break a contract in which Twitch payed Blizzard to have the rights and be the single platform the tournament is broadcasted on.
If France/the french community has contracts with Dailymotion etc that prevent them from streaming on twitch - why ask others to break a contract if you are not willing to do so?
Business and especially a very young and not rich business like esports needs to stick to their contracts. While I agree that it would be a shame if we have no French cast, it sure would be a shame to see Blizzard/Twitch break a contract. Pitchforking towards ESL and Blizzard does nothing but harm. Thats why people defend them.
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On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody.
Right, aside from all the prize pools from every IEM from this year ^^ ... ESL accounting division has to be the worst in whole Germany.
Still no proof of Twitch signing an exclusive contract with Blizzard this year ... no announcement in their blog despite twitch having done so in their blog last year.
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On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:
I fully agree with everything you wrote. If you are French (as stated next to your username), you should know that such "drama" (for lack of a better word) are fairly regular in the French scene, sadly.
Yup and yup. In two hours I'll be one of the evil frenchmen who betrays his country by watching the english ESL stream.
And though, being a bad french, I don't consider my case as being applicable to everyone else, I highly doubt there will only be 1 viewer from France on this stream, no matter how much they whine about it
After all, whining is pretty much a national sport over here
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On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:
Attacking Blizzard/ESL is useless and actually counterproductive. This is something between the French streams and the WCS EU organisation, and the community should not get involved. As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody.
I hope this gets sorted out in a professional manner and not in a whining fest!
I agree the bullying on ESL was bad and I apologize, But If we do nothing, the same as last year will happens which mean absolutely nothing.
A lot of people have been disapointed by how much OgamingTv has been invisible last year barely surviving with some minors events. Honestly I enjoyed so much when they were able to commentate the WCS final season 3 (Thanks NASL!) it was such a pleasure. Also note that this stream was by a large margin the second one on WCS final season 3 so those guys brings massive viewership in France.
So if nothing happens now , what happens next? it's status quo and WCSeu use ToD as a replacement caster for the whole season?
And then what? OgamingTv will probably stop casting Sc2 and concentrate on LoL/Dota/othergames where they have some kind of support. No more NationWars, No more Ironsquid ? Is that what we want?
I am just mad at this situation because it hurts SC2 esport above all.
Edit : I understand business is business kind of argument but it is really disapointing to see people fighting for their share of the pie when there is so little to share. They should all do anything to expand and those fight doesn't help that at all.
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On February 18 2014 23:52 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 23:47 WGT-Baal wrote:As you said, ESL does not owe anything to anybody. Right, aside from all the prize pools from every IEM from this year ^^ ... ESL accounting division has to be the worst in whole Germany. Still no proof of Twitch signing an exclusive contract with Blizzard this year ... no announcement in their blog despite twitch having done so in their blog last year.
And, you know, Powered by Twitch on every Blizzard page about WCS.
Not that there's any need for proof. Officially it's been stated the organisations in question have not been denied. They just didn't like the terms. So that initial claim was false. How about you try to prove that wrong instead of falling for their pitchfork drama ploy?
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On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ). You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
Lol, we are the fucking customers? Really? That is your argument? What a sense of entitlement.
Like you said, these are for-profit companies. Let's assume blizzard has deal with twitch that pays them X amount. Guess what happens when Blizzard breaks the deal? They don't get paid, and that in turn hurts WCS and ESL and other SC2 tournaments. That is why we are defending them, because we can see the issues ahead. Unlike the posters here who think they are entitled to whatever they want because they are customers.
Do you go to McDonalds and ask them to serve you Burger King's food items? Can you have the Super Bowl or Olympics be broadcasted by any TV station? You should, because you are the fucking customer, rofl!
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Blizzard announced Twitch as it's WCS partner, if you want to watch it you should watch through twitch. EZ.
Don't have a clue why these French medium production teams can't just come to terms with that. If a show is made by a company and sells it to a network, that's that network and that network alone's option to air it.
If ITV started airing Top Gear while Top Gear was in contract with the BBC still, BBC would kick up a shit storm and rightly so.
EDIT: Until Blizzard says otherwise, ESL is within its rights to do this IMO
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On February 19 2014 00:04 klup wrote:
I am just mad at this situation because it hurts SC2 esport above all.
That's understandable, but still, patience is going to be required, not pitchforks.
ESL is clearly already aware of the issue, they will see the viewership numbers, the discussions with O'Gaming & co are quite certainly still ongoing, let's just wait a bit to see what happens.
It may take a season, a whole year, it may never change, but screaming and shouting is not going to help. If anything it will make matters worse.
In the end, this 'simply' requires agreements/contracts between companies. Pitchforks won't have any (positive) impact on this.
What we *can* do is showing (via numbers) / telling (via twitter/facebook/whatever, but *politely*) that there is an audience that will miss out on WCS because of this. That's our part in this. Not telling companies what to do and how to manage their budget.
Vote with your wallet as they say. Your eyes in this case. And be prepared for the possibility that, not matter how you may hate to hear it, you *may* be deemed as a negligible amount. It's a numbers game.
Makes me think of Friends. "Welcome to the real world. It sucks. You're gonna love it."
(or not. you know. whatever )
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On February 19 2014 00:17 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2014 00:04 klup wrote:
I am just mad at this situation because it hurts SC2 esport above all. That's understandable, but still, patience is going to be required, not pitchforks. ESL is clearly already aware of the issue, they will see the viewership numbers, the discussions with O'Gaming & co are quite certainly still ongoing, let's just wait a bit to see what happens. It may take a season, a whole year, it may never change, but screaming and shouting is not going to help. If anything it will make matters worse. In the end, this 'simply' requires agreements/contracts between companies. Pitchforks won't have any (positive) impact on this. What we *can* do is showing (via numbers) / telling (via twitter/facebook/whatever, but *politely*) that there is an audience that will miss out on WCS because of this. That's our part in this. Not telling companies what to do and how to manage their budget.
Bringing the subject on the table in the community can put pressure on those companies because putting this on the public place is dommaging the image of both of the parts. In this case I suppose Ogamingtv did the move because they have nothing to loose anymore.
It's the same things as consumers association that put pressure on companies about certain issues on their products. I agree with have to throw the Pitchforks away and try to express our voice more diplomatically.
TL forums is the n°1 SC2 community forum so it's a good mean to rise the attention on this matter.
People comparing this situation to BBC and other random TV channel tend to forget that when a channel is not in a good disposition to broadcast some event in a specific country because the channel has no audience in it, what they usually do is make a contract with local channel to diffuse the show. The situation is not so much different here imo.
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On February 19 2014 00:26 klup wrote:
Bringing the subject on the table in the community can put pressure on those companies because putting this on the public place is dommaging the image of both of the parts. It's the same things as consumers association that put pressure on companies about certain issues on their products. I have no problem whatsoever with the principle of bringing the subject to the public, asking affected (or supporting) people to email/tweet at Blizzard/ESL to show them there is a relevant audience that would like something to be done.
I have a problem when the subject is brought to the public's attention while manipulating and hiding information, speaking on behalf of "everyone" and basically *asking* for pitchforks. Hence two topics, more than 20 pages of drama, shouting, conspiration theories, finger pointing and so on. No idea of the size of it on Reddit, my drama needs are not high enough to go there that often
The matter has been brought up to attention, mission accomplished. Badly accomplished though. It may take some effort to refocus it in a way that could actually be useful.
Putting pressure on the authorities works in France (another national sport), it can work with sponsors, but it's not an universal solution to get what we want with anyone. Try that at work with your boss and see if it works (I did, it doesn't )
What about saying it's been tried, hasn't worked and it's time to try something else?
On February 19 2014 00:26 klup wrote:
People comparing this situation to BBC and other random TV channel tend to forget that when a channel is not in a good disposition to broadcast some event in a specific country because the channel has no audience in it, what they usually do is make a contract with local channel to diffuse the show. The situation is not so much different here imo.
And maybe that's what will end up happening. Or contracting the french casters but on a stream produced by ESL? Who knows. That's between them.
Just show them that there are people interested in this who would appreciate the efforts made to make it possible. While understanding that it may not.
* Demanding* that they do what they're told, ignoring any contract considerations on their side (which they don't have to share), is not exactly the same way to go about it
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On February 19 2014 00:05 schimmetje wrote:
And, you know, Powered by Twitch on every Blizzard page about WCS.
Not that there's any need for proof. Officially it's been stated the organisations in question have not been denied. They just didn't like the terms. So that initial claim was false. How about you try to prove that wrong instead of falling for their pitchfork drama ploy?
You are actually right : WCS Partners
But there was a need for clarification because Carmac is a precise in his rebutal as my mother in curling.
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EPT
