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On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
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Nouar said it all, I completely agree.
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On February 18 2014 04:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation. Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf.
But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully.
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On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation.
You do realize that if every single person who was having issues did what you just suggested and switched providers, you'd solve the root of the problem by talking in the only language corporations and multinationals really talk in; £$€.
For all the sob stories of people who legitimately can't access another ISP, too young, too broke etc. are the 1000s of complainers who simply are unwilling to make a statement or possibly just too cheap to be bothered to change ISP. But then we are getting into a whole different subject on human social conditioning so I'll just leave it there.
But you seem to think leaving a shitstorm at ESL or Blizzard's door like they are killing esports when they are simply honoring the terms of a partnership is a better solution.
Essentially what you are telling Free, Orange etc. is that it isn't worth your money to have access to these services, and they won't lose money from you going elsewhere since you don't care enough to change, but if it costs them more to cripple bandwidth then it does to play favorites then you can get to the root of the problem.
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from what i can tell and i am making assumptions here esl isn't willing to let a rival to their partner stream wcs without some sort of cash. seems to be free or atleast i haven't heard of any fees being demanded for streaming twitch.
which frankly only makes sense to me twitch is a partner presumably payed for such a status and a rival of theirs can get the same benefit for no disadvantage and no amount payed? what part of that makes any sense? I think it's entirely logical for ESL to demand some sort of compensation before giving dailymotion the same privilege that twitch already payed for.
ogaming simply thinks the price is too high and that lying about what happened is the best way to make it lower.
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On February 18 2014 04:38 a3den wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 04:31 Plansix wrote:On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation. Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf. But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully.
I don't know they NASL didn't request that they shut down the stream, but they might not have noticed it was on DM? ESL might just be more aware if how their stream is bein broadcast in EU. But that's not the point. If DM wants to broadcast WCS, blizzard are the decision makers as to which streaming platform is used.
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Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
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Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
Inasmuch in my student residence I simply can't have access to more than 2 minutes of Twitch in proper condition, but that I have no issue at all on Millenium TV and dailymotion, I believe i can deny your statement.
Moreover, since I can't use Twitch, with my somewhat poor internet that I can't change at all (except if I leave my flat, but that's not something I can consider), I can definitely say that ESL forbids me from watching WCS.
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On February 18 2014 05:25 Ishentar wrote:Show nested quote +Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
Inasmuch in my student residence I simply can't have access to more than 2 minutes of Twitch in proper conditions but I have no issue at all on Millenium TV and dailymotion, I believe i can deny your statement. And since I can't use Twitch and have somewhat poor internet and that I can't change it at all, I can definitely say that ESL forbids me from watching WCS.
But that had to do with your schools Internet, rather than twitch. It's like blaming HBO because your school does have premium cable and your missing game of thrones.
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That still changes nothing to the fact that Dailymotion isn't crap. I can watch HD stream from home and student residence without suffering any drops or lags most of the time. It suffers at least 10 times less issues than Twitch, at least.
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On February 18 2014 05:41 Ishentar wrote:
That still changes nothing to the fact that Dailymotion isn't crap. I can watch HD stream from home and student residence without suffering any drops or lags.
Well life is hard like that. I can't watch homeland until it comes out on Amazon because I don't have show time. But I'm not blaming amazon for not having it day and date with Showtime.
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Love how people say its blizzard issue when it's clearly ESL involved since NASL allowed Ogamingtv to broadcast. NASL is the blizzard broadcaster of WCS AM so there is absolutely no difference between NASL and ESL situation except that one of them is clearly trying to annoy the french broadcast whereas the other is more reasonable.
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On February 18 2014 05:25 Ishentar wrote:Show nested quote +Dailymotion is a buggy pile of crap to watch streams anyway. I hope they will be forced to use Twitch. And I am french.
Inasmuch in my student residence I simply can't have access to more than 2 minutes of Twitch in proper condition, but that I have no issue at all on Millenium TV and dailymotion, I believe i can deny your statement.
As a statement, yes. As an opinion, no.
In my case, I concur with Yui (also, K-ON \o/).
Maybe DM is better for people using Orange? 
Anyway this is not the issue.
If some (emphasis on *some*) people cannot watch WCS on Twitch because of bad peering (or rumored traffic shaping from the ISPs or whatever), because of the exclusive partnership between Blizzard and Twitch, the issue should be taken to Blizzard and Twitch.
Trying to rile up people on TL to throw pitchforks at ESL is a waste of time for everyone. Especially when speaking on behalf of the "entire" french community, which is, simply based on these topics, not that unanimous in the first place.
Yes, it's too bad if some people cannot properly watch WCS because of this. The world is not fair like that sometimes.
If DailyMotion is really the only way to fix this, the solution is the same -> talk with Blizzard/Twitch.
Also it's funny how the "main problem" keeps switching since the initial post on the subject. Is it that french streams are banned by ESL? That Twitch doesn't generate enough money for the french streams? That french companies are contracted to DailyMotion? That Twitch is unwatchable for some? That french ISPs are plotting to kill any streaming platform that isn't DailyMotion?
The actual issue seems to keep mutating depending on the opposing arguments that are made...
Edit: I tried to ignore the various assumptions that have been made around all this, but I failed for (at least) one thing. Among the things we have no idea about (which is most of it), we don't know who the company *actually* responsible for the decision is.
ESL may be the initial one, in which case if they're contacted and they decide that only Twitch is allowed, the next step would be to contact the next level, be it Blizzard or Twitch. And if they also reject the propositions, and you still believe that you have a point, then why not ask the community for support, by *politely* messaging/tweeting at ESL/Twitch/Blizzard in order to show them that people are interested? Even if it's too late for the current season, maybe it would make them reconsider their position for the next one? And if they *still* don't allow it... deal with it.
Or... you know... throw a fit and try to start a war. Freedom of choice and all that.
However what's been done here is "lying" (even if it's by omission) in the initial post about french streams being banned by ESL, in order to try to make enough people angry to force ESL into submission. Without giving any actual details about what the problem is and what's been done to try to solve it the 'official' way. And multiple cases of speaking for the entire country (or the majority, or most of the people, whatever) as if there actually was unanimous support for the whole thing...
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ESL decides who has the right to stream the WCS EU, not blizzard.
Stop protecting ESL.
ESL shit on the French SC2 community and for the development of SC2 I do not think it is a good idea.
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On February 18 2014 06:57 iknowthetrue wrote:
ESL decides who has the right to stream the WCS EU, not blizzard.
Stop protecting ESL.
ESL shit on the French SC2 community and for the development of SC2 I do not think it is a good idea.
How do you know this? They didn't say the French streamers couldn't do it. They said the streamers had to use Twitch, which is the official streaming service for WCS.
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On February 18 2014 06:57 iknowthetrue wrote:
ESL decides who has the right to stream the WCS EU, not blizzard.
Stop protecting ESL.
ESL shit on the French SC2 community and for the development of SC2 I do not think it is a good idea.
wrong
Twitch is official partner for WCS 2014
I am not french and not living in France, but I know for 3 years that twitch is terrible in France.
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Both Twitch and DailyMotion are worthless.
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Oh fuck you're seriously tiring...
People from all over Europe have been complaining for YEARS about the poor twitch quality of service and infrastructure in Europe, and each and every live report still has people from all countries and ISP complaining, maybe you can admit that Twitch does have SOME problems, TOO, and not everything is to blame on our ISP ?
Plansix you're awfully stuck on your ideas, it's crazy.
Even R1CH made a fucking hack to connect to american twitch servers and magically a lot of us could watch HD from across the atlantic, while the euro servers where crap for a good percentage of viewers...
Not answering anymore, I've said what I had to previously, any further post would be more (too) angry at people not trying to understand point of views and opinions.
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Seriously, is this that hard to understand ?
You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you.
You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us.
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I hope one day everyone switches to Youtube for stream service, flawless streaming in HQ on Youtube. Twitch has had poor quality ever since they stopped having real competitors like ownd3d ect. Hope the French viewers get this issue resolved. Sucks not being able to watch StarCraft 2 properly. If YouTube ever sets up a system that pays streamers, Twitch is going to have to step it up in the quality.
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EPT
