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SinCitta
Germany2127 Posts
On February 18 2014 01:31 Boucot wrote: Orange is not the ISP that makes Twitch running bad. It's Free, mostly. It's the same provider that Dayshi uses that doesn't allow him to play on Battle.net after a specific daytime, right? Why do so many people use Free? | ||
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Aeromi
France14456 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:19 SinCitta wrote: It's the same provider that Dayshi uses that doesn't allow him to play on Battle.net after a specific daytime, right? Why do so many people use Free? Yep. Free is cheap, very cheap. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:13 Plansix wrote: There is an article on the precious page in the thread where the CEO of Orange admits to "forcing google to pay the drive traffic to them". It is basically the opposit of net neutrality, where the ISP works out deals with companies to provide them with higher bandwidth rates. So before google paid the money, people using YouTube were getting shitty bit rates, even though there were paying for a specific connection speed. This is the problem in France these years, ISP are tired to provide that much bandwidth to their clients from Google mostly, while google contributes nearly nothing (don't pay the same kind of taxes etc). Google has a huge levy because having a good access to google/youtube brings client to the ISP, but it's still not "fair" since the ISP is paying for the most part of the way the data packet takes. Usually companies expand their bandwidth symetrically with agreements. We had problems between Orange and Free because Orange didn't want to pay for his clients to access the Free customers websites (which used to host a lot of data). Same problem now between Google and Free, Free wants Google to contribute to the increase in bandwidth they generate, Google doesn't want to, Free throttles google. Customers fucked. But this is not really related, the main problem here is Twitch, and the bandwidth is only one of two major issues. As people mentioned, Twitch doesn't have a lot of contracts with advertising companies here, so offers a very low income, and is not sustainable for the french stream companies. Was Twitch developed here, it could work even with shitty bandwidth for the streamers. But forcing streamers to lose money AND offer an awful experience to the viewers is a lose/lose situation for us... | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Aeromi
France14456 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:29 Plansix wrote: If this thread has taught me anything, it's to look your ISP before blaming the broadcasting service. The whole argument of "Twich is broken, but YouTube runs fine" should be a red flag that maybe it isn't caused by infrastructure. YouTube and Twitch are unwatchable if you have Free. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:29 Plansix wrote: If this thread has taught me anything, it's to look your ISP before blaming the broadcasting service. The whole argument of "Twich is broken, but YouTube runs fine" should be a red flag that maybe it isn't caused by infrastructure. youtube doesn't run fine, twitch doesn't run fine x) (never has for me) And your sentence is wrong, bad peering can be attributed to either isp or website... Looking at the performance of another service to judge who is in the wrong is usually a very shitty comparison :-p Orange probably has bad peering with outgoing traffic to several european providers, which explains the bad quality of service of DM for a part of Europe, and a good one for the rest. Same with Twitch. When you run faster when directly connecting to an american twitch server than a european one (see R1CH posts about that a few months ago), you know something is *also* wrong with Twitch ;-) | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
dailymotion brings healthy money to streamer compared to twitch so why not support that also. if you want esport to be alive people should be able to live from it . anyway dont forget esl in all that : dont sharing replay and banning ogamingtv from all their 2013 events what a great way to promote esports gentlemen! Mr day9 has all the replays he wants so dont understand why french broadcaster cant have them . many curious things on their side adblock on for esl ungil fixed not so much but hey i contribute | ||
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miniskirt
France487 Posts
twitch happen to use the cheap and terrible Level3 CDN, which is even worse in france than it is in the rest of EU Level3 is cheap because they try to make ISPs pay to peer with them at least MLG made the right move and went with akamai if you want good peering in france, you can go with sfr or bouygue, they have much better peering than orange and free | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:54 SSVnormandy wrote: yep nouar and klup summed up well the whole issue . and yeah google is for free internet be equal blablabla . first they should pay their taxes like everyone else and then we talk about fairness . dailymotion brings healthy money to streamer compared to twitch so why not support that also. if you want esport to be alive people should be able to live from it . anyway dont forget esl in all that : dont sharing replay and banning ogamingtv from all their 2013 events what a great way to promote esports gentlemen! Mr day9 has all the replays he wants so dont understand why french broadcaster cant have them . many curious things on their side adblock on for esl ungil fixed not so much but hey i contribute Dailymotion needs to reach out to Blizzard and work out a deal with them, just like twitch did. It's not ESLs job to do daily motion's work for them. | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved. Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways). And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests? This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment. As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On February 18 2014 02:19 SinCitta wrote: It's the same provider that Dayshi uses that doesn't allow him to play on Battle.net after a specific daytime, right? Why do so many people use Free? Provides one of the best Boxes, allows you to customize your connection to a very high degre, error correction etc, to improve your ping or stability, etc etc etc, a lot of tools for the geeks since it's owned by a geek. Used to be very, very good a few years ago, now is reluctant to invest money to develop their network (3G/4G is shit. I live in Paris and it took me 1.5h to download a 15MB app last week), and for home internet, it's core network is starting to go down, too. Still has a good image cause they are moving the overall market in the right direction, and excellent prices, so still very popular. But the quality of service has gone down A LOT. | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: This is what is wrong with SC2 community. Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved. Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways). And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests? This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment. As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry. So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . | ||
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GaNgStaRR.ElV
Canada535 Posts
On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote: So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
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Otolia
France5805 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 18 2014 04:08 Otolia wrote: I applaude the ones who succeeded in turning a legitimate discussion about ESL's decisions into a mind-numbing debate on french ISPs. Considering the dailymotion is owned by a French ISP, it's a good topic. People are just pointing out that the issue is out of ESLs control, that dailymotion needs to work wih Blizzard and that the reason twitch sucks in France might not have anything to do with twitch itself. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On February 18 2014 04:13 Plansix wrote: Considering the dailymotion is owned by a French ISP, it's a good topic. People are just pointing out that the issue is out of ESLs control, that dailymotion needs to work wih Blizzard and that the reason twitch sucks in France might not have anything to do with twitch itself. It doesn't, lot of french people said they have no problem with twitch. Soo the problem is their ISP, not twitch. HB btw. | ||
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SSVnormandy
France392 Posts
On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote: I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation. | ||
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magicallypuzzled
United States588 Posts
thats not going to earn them any friends and it wasn't like their deceit was hard to uncover which just makes the decision to make that claim all the weirder. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote: Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation. No negociation with ESL, and that normal. Ogaming should ask DM to treat with Blizzard, not ESL. | ||
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