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On February 18 2014 07:46 Ishentar wrote:
Seriously, is this that hard to understand ?
You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you.
You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us.
The thing you don't seem to understand, is that it doesn't matter.
Twitch is the official streaming platform for WCS. Twitch and Blizzard have a streaming contract.
If you want to stream WCS on a platform other than twitch, you need Blizzard's permission, but since Blizzard is a partner of twitch, they are unlikely to allow a stream other than on twitch. it doesn't matter what ESL wants or NASL wants or Ogaming wants. Its what Blizzard and Twitch wants, which, for Twitch, Is that they are the only stream.
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The real thing you don't seem to understand is that this message was actually adressed to all the ones explaining how good Twitch is and how bad DM is.
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So is net neutrality an issue in France then? I was under the impression that the EU frowned upon that sort of thing.
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On February 18 2014 08:31 forsooth wrote:
So is net neutrality an issue in France then? I was under the impression that the EU frowned upon that sort of thing.
You have no idea my friend
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On February 18 2014 08:31 Ishentar wrote:
The real thing you don't seem to understand is that this message was actually adressed to all the ones explaining how good Twitch is and how bad DM is.
Yeah, twitch may be terrible in France, even unwatchable, but that's not going change anything.
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On February 18 2014 08:31 forsooth wrote:
So is net neutrality an issue in France then? I was under the impression that the EU frowned upon that sort of thing.
peering issues are a complex matter, especially with orange being a Tier1 ISP (twitch deciding to go for cheap and terrible Level3 is not helping)
people seem to want french people to choose from the ISP with less problems (sfr is good, bouygue has perfect peering), but these ISPs have to pay to peer with Level3
orange being a tier1, they refuse to pay of course, and free tries to have level3 (and google) pay them to peer
of course, twitch doesn't seem to look for private peering with ISPs in EU (that would require them to make good decision and to spend money which they don't seem to do a lot), despite their thousand new datacenters in EU as they say(?)
paid peering won't help net neutrality, people switching ISP to ones that pay to peer with level3 would only make things worse
we'll just have to wait for level3 and the like to slowly die
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Yeah, twitch may be terrible in France, even unwatchable, but that's not going change anything.
Never said it was going to change anything about the debate in itself, but we can't discuss if like a third of people here don't even trust the french when they say that twitch is bad in France and DM is perfectly fine in France.
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On February 18 2014 07:46 Ishentar wrote:
You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you.
You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us. Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
However there have been many attempts to refocus the topic on the actual issue, which is not Twitch vs DailyMotion (both have problems, for different people and different reasons), nor french ISPs, nor the financial stability of whatever companies.
The issue is mostly this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20793145
Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations. Which is false, as has been clearly stated by Carmac (including in this very thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20794596 )
(and I'll take a clear post from Carmac over a vague post from O'Gaming any day)
This has been a call for pitchforks (on behalf of all french viewers), not for discussions. Not for affected people to manifest themselves (politely) so that the Powers That Be could have an idea of the importance of this issue, which may or may not end up being taken under consideration. Their decision.
If there's no french stream for WCS and it notably affects viewership, the PTB may decide to reevaluate their position. Or not. Or it may not impact viewership at all. Or they may not care. Who knows?
How would pitchforks help in all this exactly?
The 'debate' should have ended with Carmac's post (or rather it shouldn't have started in the first place...)
Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone?
If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS?
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Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
Nobody ? I'm pretty sure that on the two topics about the ESL / O'gaming/Millenium/aAa dispute and the reddit, I can find at least 40 posts defending the opposite. Just taking a random page I found 2 posts going this way. Another page 1, and a last page 3. Well maybe it's troll or newcomers that sill doesn't know it... but well, the fact that following all these topics I found it so many times just made me want to be clear on that point.
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On February 18 2014 10:28 Ishentar wrote:Show nested quote +Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it.
Nobody ? I'm pretty sure that on the two topics about the ESL / O'gaming/Millenium/aAa dispute and the reddit, I can find at least 50 posts defending the opposite.
Granted I haven't paid attention to every post (and not at all to reddit), but are these posts defending the opposite or basically saying "who cares?" 
It seems obvious that people not being able to watch WCS because of Twitch is not good for them. Saying the opposite would seem to be mostly trolling, or being very unclear. I can understand this upsetting those who are still unable to watch anything on Twitch (even though it seems to have improved a *lot* recently, I obviously can't speak for everyone in the country).
But... this is *still* not the issue.
Twitch performance has been bad for many people in many countries for many months. And it's been good for many people in many countries for many months.
And this has no importance whatsoever regarding the WCS broadcasting rights. Or regarding the way O'Gaming brought it up in public.
(I quoted before your edit, but it doesn't impact the answer )
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I'm happy OGaming made this public, because sc2 casting in France is a big mess! It's about time for Blizzard and everyone to realize that Pomf & Thud and their OGaming organization, are the only ones in this country who are able to bring viewers to starcraft!
Business clauses and policies are justified from the individual perspectives of each organization involved but in this case they are actually counterproductive because they prevent viewers from watching sc2!
OGaming has nothing to prove, they made the whole Ironsquid tournament(!), they're a passionate, charismatic and talented team. They're the best thing that happened to eSports in France by far! Nobody else has made such a big impact in french eSport history from the public perspective. That is why the vast majority of the french viewers actually like, want and need to have them on stream! They are the ones that french viewers want to see, plain and simple!
Yet until now thanks to exclusivity clauses it's been almost a year since OGaming casted any "high-caliber" sc2 tournament. That's a fact and it's unbelievable! So if sc2 viewership rates in France are falling it's no surprise to me!
OGaming have now teamed up with aAa and Millenium to bring non-stop french casting of tournaments, they did it a few times already and it was awesome! Even when it was like 8 straight hours of matches in the middle of the night (timezones I hate you)! So maybe that's surprising to you, but unless Blizzard would rather have no french-speaking sc2 viewers left than adapt to the reality of this "local market" I think OGaming should be made able to cast WCS!
TLDR; ESL may have the contract with Blizz, but in France they don't have the popularity necessary to bring viewers, so if no arrangement is made viewership will be awful and that'll be it. ...so better make an exception !
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On February 18 2014 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 04:38 a3den wrote:On February 18 2014 04:31 Plansix wrote:On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation. Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf. But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully. I don't know they NASL didn't request that they shut down the stream, but they might not have noticed it was on DM? ESL might just be more aware if how their stream is bein broadcast in EU. But that's not the point. If DM wants to broadcast WCS, blizzard are the decision makers as to which streaming platform is used.
Was a partnership with twitch in effect back then? I think that was starting only for WCS 2014. If there was not, it is clear why NASL did not give a shit about it.
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On February 18 2014 10:04 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 07:46 Ishentar wrote:
You basically explain us that you have good experience with Twitch, we believe you.
You basically explain us that you have poor experience with DailyMotion, we believe you.
Can't you believe that we experience the opposite thing ? We aren't you and you aren't us. Nobody said you were wrong. And nobody denied that not having a non-Twitch stream is a problem for affected people who may not be able to watch WCS because of it. However there have been many attempts to refocus the topic on the actual issue, which is not Twitch vs DailyMotion (both have problems, for different people and different reasons), nor french ISPs, nor the financial stability of whatever companies. The issue is mostly this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20793145Show nested quote +Today, ESL Decision was given to us: Access to the WCS is forbidden to French organizations. Which is false, as has been clearly stated by Carmac (including in this very thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20794596 ) (and I'll take a clear post from Carmac over a vague post from O'Gaming any day) This has been a call for pitchforks (on behalf of all french viewers), not for discussions. Not for affected people to manifest themselves (politely) so that the Powers That Be could have an idea of the importance of this issue, which may or may not end up being taken under consideration. Their decision. If there's no french stream for WCS and it notably affects viewership, the PTB may decide to reevaluate their position. Or not. Or it may not impact viewership at all. Or they may not care. Who knows? How would pitchforks help in all this exactly? The 'debate' should have ended with Carmac's post (or rather it shouldn't have started in the first place...) Does anyone have numbers for the IEM viewership from France this past week-end? Was it abysmal? Did no one from France even tried watching the Twitch stream? Was Twitch unwatchable for nearly everyone? If I were to venture a guess, I'd say that there probably were quite a few french viewers watching most of it. Why would it be any different for WCS?
it was 0 since esl forbid them also to broadcast IEM. but if u look at the wcs america final french stream was second by a large margin.
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now all this business is not about twitch or anything is just esl that want to get rid of one of their streaming conccurent. its like asking samsung if they want apple in the market its fucking stupid. now they found this twitch issue to cover their ass but it is an issue between esl and ogamingtv . NASL has no problem with ogamingtv because they dont see them as conccurent and they are right.
ogamingtv is whining for a good reason they have been forbidden to broadcast almost all big starcraft event last year . but did they just whinned? no! they put some great project with their small means like Nationwars which has been a huge sucess so far.
Ogamingtv is the number one reason for the strength of french community. they manage tu fulfill one of the bigest show place in paris for ironsquid 2 who would have bet that on esport ? they develop strong link with the french barcraft meltdown and organized lots of french sc2 events by default not being able to broadcast the main ones. they made so much people discover and love sc2. now esl is glad to take those faithful viewers in their nest.
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Ok so it's been ridiculous. Basically this discussion can be summed up :
1) French fighting for their wonderful broadcasting team
2) Other people don't give a shit so they blame French organisation.
And for the dailymotion vs Twitch thing I agree with SSVnormandy it seems to me that it is more an excuse than anything. And basically why a streamer that can choose between top quality stream( Dailymotion) and unwatchable stream (Twitch) should choose the unwatchable one to have close to 0 viewer with little income because twitch doesn't give as many money?
It's like having to choose between a subway sandwich and a 3 star restaurant.
:'-( I miss their couch analysis so much please allow them to get back !!
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On February 18 2014 04:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 04:38 a3den wrote:On February 18 2014 04:31 Plansix wrote:On February 18 2014 04:22 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:30 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:On February 18 2014 03:28 SSVnormandy wrote:On February 18 2014 03:15 GaNgStaRR.ElV wrote:
This is what is wrong with SC2 community.
Blizzard makes a deal with one of the better stream providers, in order to further the intergration and experience for everybody involved.
Both parties are in the game to make money, and thus when someone signs an "exclusive" as part of a mutual effort, it's because Twitch doesn't want to put money into WCS only to see a ton of viewers watching a re-stream on Dailymotion(which sucks anyways).
And yet there is a vocal minority here saying Blizz/ESL/Twitch are the baddies simply for looking out for each other's mutual interests?
This isn't communism, it isn't about "spreading as far and wide as possible with as many viewers", as if Blizzard should just rip up the contract, say FU Twitch, and let the French stream on DM for the sake of some utopian internet idealism. It's about establishing a consistent viewership for the organizers and businesses to be able to profit from and market their products, and for the consumers to have a reliable source for their entertainment.
As far as I'm concerned this should have been an internal matter between ESL and the French gaming organizations, and to read about organizations airing their dirty laundry with each other AGAIN is just a sharp reminder about the lack of professionalism in the pro-gaming industry.
So first dailymotion sucks FOR YOU as twitch sucks FOR US so please don't be absolute because you will be not so glad of twitch if you were french and were not able to watch every single european time Sc2 competition. Blizzard made a deal with Twitch good for them but if Twitch for whatever reason is not capable of displaying even an average quality of service to stream sc2 content for an important part of the sc2 community it's in blizzard interest to find an alternative. The fact is, I and an important part of french sc2 community will not enjoy WCS as we would like this year again after not being able to do so in 2013 thanks to Twitch and ESL. Hope LR will do a nice job again on WCS eu so we can follow the thing. And also will miss you Pomf&Thud , Those casters litteraly make me discover starcraft and love it. Hope Nationwars stream will be higher than WCS EU . I live in UK and Twitch is fine for me.... I couldn't watch streams on my old ISP since they got bought out and dicked all their customers(thanks Sky) to crappy speeds. It was my fault for picking that ISP, and it certainly wasn't Twitch's fault for not being able to offer me a bit-rate my connection could handle without lag. People talk of "not moving the French mountain", and yet others should have to read about yet another slating of WCS by Ogaming because of it? This has absolutely nothing to do with Blizzard, WCS, ESL, Twitch or TL and everything to do with you not fighting for your rights, or at the very least by paying for your rights by getting away from the problematic ISPs. Yep Will change my provider in two month and what then? Still a big majority of french sc2 viewer won't be able to watch WCS with good quality. Not to mention I already experienced Twitch with other providers and it's still most of the time in low quality compared to the very high quality of dailymotion in France. So you are fine to let those people down because their daddies didn't choose the right provider to watch Twitch because they want to save money? There is an existing solution so why not try to negociate? From OgamingTv staff statement it is said that there is even no negociation. Do you understand that ESL can't? WCS is blizzards show, they just produce it by the terms Blizzard set out. If people want to broadcast on non-twitch services, they need to go to Blizzard. ESL can't make the decision on Blizzards behalf. But NASL can ? Because NASL did allow it. I'd really like to know if it had some consequences for NASL truthfully. I don't know they NASL didn't request that they shut down the stream, but they might not have noticed it was on DM? ESL might just be more aware if how their stream is bein broadcast in EU. But that's not the point. If DM wants to broadcast WCS, blizzard are the decision makers as to which streaming platform is used.
ESL is way more professional then NASL in my subjective opinion. If ESL says "Use twitch" they will have a reason for it. Everyone else uses twitch, and let's face it, twitch is most of the time doing okayish in terms of quality and lags. It's not as bad as its reputation, seriously. I don't get what is so hard for ogaming in changing to Twitch for WCS only, afaik, they refuse to use twitch somehow. Well, then they don't get to cast! You can easily go for a twitch stream even as an organization. Then, you can start to talk about using Dailymotion, talking about it with Blizzard, ESL etc. in a more relaxed atmosphere.
But whatever, as long as neither the french poeple nor Blizzard nor ESL provides further information, this will be just a comment shitstorm raging on everything, so we should all just up and see what comes out. I do trust ESL, it looks to me as if the french guys are simply pissed because they may not use dailymotion.
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On February 18 2014 16:40 SSVnormandy wrote:
now all this business is not about twitch or anything is just esl that want to get rid of one of their streaming conccurent. its like asking samsung if they want apple in the market its fucking stupid. now they found this twitch issue to cover their ass but it is an issue between esl and ogamingtv . NASL has no problem with ogamingtv because they dont see them as conccurent and they are right.
ogamingtv is whining for a good reason they have been forbidden to broadcast almost all big starcraft event last year . but did they just whinned? no! they put some great project with their small means like Nationwars which has been a huge sucess so far.
Ogamingtv is the number one reason for the strength of french community. they manage tu fulfill one of the bigest show place in paris for ironsquid 2 who would have bet that on esport ? they develop strong link with the french barcraft meltdown and organized lots of french sc2 events by default not being able to broadcast the main ones. they made so much people discover and love sc2. now esl is glad to take those faithful viewers in their nest.
It's not like ESL allows organization like TakeTV or BaseTradeTV to cast WCS rofl, you're just talking nuts.
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On February 18 2014 17:11 klup wrote:
Ok so it's been ridiculous. Basically this discussion can be summed up :
1) French fighting for their wonderful broadcasting team
2) Other people don't give a shit so they blame French organisation.
And for the dailymotion vs Twitch thing I agree with SSVnormandy it seems to me that it is more an excuse than anything. And basically why a streamer that can choose between top quality stream( Dailymotion) and unwatchable stream (Twitch) should choose the unwatchable one to have close to 0 viewer with little income because twitch doesn't give as many money?
It's like having to choose between a subway sandwich and a 3 star restaurant.
:'-( I miss their couch analysis so much please allow them to get back !!
3) Non-french people that hate Twitch
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I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ).
You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
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On February 18 2014 21:36 opisska wrote:I still can't understand why so many people are so happy to jump in and defend the Blizz-twitch agreement, or twitch per se, or ESL, or any other company as the best thing in the world. Is every second TL accound a twitch, blizz or ESL employee or what? (If that were the case, it would actually be pretty cool because then everythign posted here surely gets heard at the right places ). You guys should really understand that these are all for-profit companies and we are the fucking customers, so we are entitled to demand to be served as we want and we owe them absolutely nothing. The saddest thing is that many of the most vigorous twitch-blizz-ESL defenders here are not even French and thus are not affected by this in any way. I still don't understand whom are you trying to help exactly, but it's definitely not the French viewers.
We are defending ESL because it's not justice to harass them while they aren't responsible for the current status.
We said that DM should make a move with Blizzard to obtain a partnership, at least for french based viewership, but this suggestion is being ignored quite hard, people prefer to bash ESL for no reason.
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EPT
