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On February 11 2014 07:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line. Aww  Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers. Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately. Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there. And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder). Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast. So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
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4713 Posts
Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:25 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:22 Whitewing wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad. The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall. They dealt with it just fine even when mines killed probes in its full radius, and this change is still an overall nerf compared to that. I don't know if you are just clueless because this is not a new strategy at all and even it its old form its was perfectly manageable.
.... I said it was fine overall? Not sure why you are calling me clueless, I'm aware its what they used to do before they got nerfed, but they got nerfed largely because the harass was so powerful.
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On February 11 2014 07:50 dark1882 wrote:
if said it before i'll say it again every blink all-in problem would be fixed by making mothershipcore a ground unit
Yes but that would reduce it effectiveness as a defensive tool since it would be harder to move between bases, and we don´t want to nerf it too drastically as defensive tool when major complaints are about the fact how strong it is offensively.
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Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
make mothership core ground unit maybe give it more range to compensate
Yes but that would reduce it effectiveness as a defensive tool since it would be harder to move between bases. and we don´t want to nerf it too drastically as defensive tool when major complaints are about the fact how strong it is offensively.
range buff maybe to something like 8 and increase movement possibly slightly increase cast range of photon over charge or timewarp it's not hard to compensate for it
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote:
Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
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I gotta say, this actually looks really good  . Well done blizz
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On February 11 2014 07:54 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:25 Bagi wrote:On February 11 2014 07:22 Whitewing wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad. The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall. They dealt with it just fine even when mines killed probes in its full radius, and this change is still an overall nerf compared to that. I don't know if you are just clueless because this is not a new strategy at all and even it its old form its was perfectly manageable. .... I said it was fine overall? Not sure why you are calling me clueless, I'm aware its what they used to do before they got nerfed, but they got nerfed largely because the harass was so powerful.
My memory was that it got nerfed because a widow mine could kill 20 banelings in a single shot.
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Even as a terran player I really hope this blink change doesn't go through, seems a bit to much. Fuck yeah msc vision change though.
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Can someone pls explain to me how exactly will MSC range change influence the blink allin in any way?
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On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote:
Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Again, they don't plan to implement the blink change. They are just testing the effect in case the sight range nerf isn't enough. If we get to the point where they actually plan to implement it, then maybe we can launch a crusade.
The best thing to do if you're so worried is just to play the test map and provide actual content on how these stalkers would fare.
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On February 11 2014 07:38 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line. Aww Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers. Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately. Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there. And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder). Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast. So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
It does make no sense.
They are worse than before the nerf and you still whine abotu something that wansn't even an issue before.
Pros take no damage from mines, so it is no problem.
How long have tosses been telling terran to just split and deal with it? This is just untargetted whine because yo uare afraid of a minor buff to another unit
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I personally don't really understand how reducing the mothershipcore vision would make the blink all in that much stronger. Terran can't even affort risking enough marines on the edge of the ramp to snipe the mothershipcore, and I think it's vision is still big enough to stay out of range of getting sniped...
I mean, the idea that it's making the strat slightly more risky is good and all, and I think it should be changed, but I really wonder if it'll actually significantly reduce the blink all in potential.
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Can someone pls explain to me how exactly will MSC range change influence the blink allin in any way?
makes it easier to snipe and push it away from vision range
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Sweden740 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:56 Ammanas wrote:
Can someone pls explain to me how exactly will MSC range change influence the blink allin in any way?
It will need to be closer to the cliff making it possibly for terrans to snipe it.
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Code S
Zergs are getting destroyed by protoss, almost no terran. No shit the game is balanced.
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On February 11 2014 04:59 GreenMash wrote:
good changes but NERF SWARM HOSTS
more like remove them from the game*
i'd be surprised to hear anyone say they actually enjoy Swarm Host games.
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On February 11 2014 07:51 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:On February 11 2014 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:On February 11 2014 07:39 geokilla wrote:
As a Terran player, I dislike the Blink Stalker change. It'll remove the early Protoss pressure and completely remove the usefulness of Blink Stalkers in all early and mid game matchups. I salute you my friend for this statement, but I think isn't that the change is a bad idea, but it is that it's too drastic done.. 15 sec up from 10 is far too much Why? something like 12 seconds would hardly be noticeable It means a Stalker takes 20% more damage until it can be blunk away. It's a huge change.
Are you really managing the stalkers exactly on the 10 second cooldown when in combat? I mean the first blink away with a wounded stalker will still be instant. I don't think many people are managing the blink cooldown to the second on each individual wounded stalker after their first blink back. So it needs to be a significant amount to be noticed.
The nerf will hit cliff abuse harder because you stay up or down longer and that's fine I think.
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On February 11 2014 07:56 Ammanas wrote:
Can someone pls explain to me how exactly will MSC range change influence the blink allin in any way?
No more risk-free full intel about Terran's defence, MSC will need to be closer if Protoss wants to see further = more risk involved.
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Beyond simply making the MCore easier to snipe, decreasing its vision range means that when you choose to blink you don't see the entire Terran base.
Now every blink needs to be a genuine decision because there could be a clump of bio sitting just past the edge.
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EPT
