On February 11 2014 07:57 Jerom wrote: I personally don't really understand how reducing the mothershipcore vision would make the blink all in that much stronger. Terran can't even affort risking enough marines on the edge of the ramp to snipe the mothershipcore, and I think it's vision is still big enough to stay out of range of getting sniped...
I mean, the idea that it's making the strat slightly more risky is good and all, and I think it should be changed, but I really wonder if it'll actually significantly reduce the blink all in potential.
When you have a sight-14 MSC near a cliff, you don't simply provide opportunity to blink up. You also provide intel on where the terran units are and if it's safe to blink up.
On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote: [quote]
It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above.
Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage?
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad.
The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
They dealt with it just fine even when mines killed probes in its full radius, and this change is still an overall nerf compared to that.
I don't know if you are just clueless because this is not a new strategy at all and even it its old form its was perfectly manageable.
.... I said it was fine overall? Not sure why you are calling me clueless, I'm aware its what they used to do before they got nerfed, but they got nerfed largely because the harass was so powerful.
My memory was that it got nerfed because a widow mine could kill 20 banelings in a single shot.
Zergs were already dealing with widow mines very well at the time, and zerg was winning more and more against bio-mine. The stated reason was that they wanted to see more tanks and mines rather than just mines alone, but that doesn't make any sense.
Stop making changes based on what is and isn't fun to watch, viewership is at an all time low because of the stupid shit you thought would be fun to watch when in reality it is the complete opposite
Make changes based on fair gameplay and fun, and in return it will be entertaining to watch
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
proxy 11-11 the shit out of any zerg on ladder.
here, we even fixed the lategame Raven shenanigans :D
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
Don't think zergs would appreciate that kind of change.
On February 11 2014 08:00 magnaflow wrote: Stop making changes based on what is and isn't fun to watch, viewership is at an all time low because of the stupid shit you thought would be fun to watch when in reality it is the complete opposite
Make changes based on fair gameplay and fun, and in return it will be entertaining to watch
This post is devoid of all content :D I thought I had seen a content and was answering to it, but it's not even there.
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
Don't think zergs would appreciate that kind of change.
Now we know why there were maps with 500 range Spines.
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
Don't think zergs would appreciate that kind of change.
Then 10 pool will be a real build again in ZvT. Just as planned.
On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote: [quote]
It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above.
Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage?
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
There's a lot of irony in you writing that his post sounds like whining(which it isn't) and then your next paragraph is full of you whining. You also refer to someone who stated that he is a Terran player in the second person, implying that he is a Protoss. Your post reads like the internet equivalent of walking up to a stranger, saying "no offense", and then kicking them in the balls and spitting in their face.
Also wtf is a proxy DT drop? Are you telling me that an early game investment of 600 as SHOULDNT kill any probes? How would you even take serious damage from a proxy build that requires 600 gas you should easily be ready for something like that.
Blink is getting nerfed deservedly so don't worry about that anymore, and proxy oracle isn't as popular because of the high prevalence of reaper expands with heavy scouting.
On February 11 2014 05:36 Blargh wrote: They could always make it so you can not blink up cliffs instead, while still being able to jump gaps. Then it's just a micro tool instead of an abusive heavy aggression build which can't really be punished. But what they are suggesting right now is better than how it currently is...
Overall, it's a decent change and a step in the right direction (unlike many previous ones.... LOLoLol oRacLes)
I always thought a change like this would be ok. Still allow a stalker to blink up a cliff, but not two levels of high ground. A reaper can't jump up 2 levels, why is blink allowed to do so?
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
And bunkers in TvZ ?
what about the 11/11 in TvZ now ?
The Widow-Mine is a good approach.. It's a fairly good start - just needs some more polishing now.. The only problem I see is if the Blink-micro juke of Mine-missiles happens to be too effective overall.. Still - think that that can also be dealt with later on with far less "side-effects" caused
So yah - I guess the WM is the good unit to focus on to solve the problem, just need some more experience/data with it's change now
The very best part of it is that - Zerg isn't concerned about this change at all
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
proxy 11-11 the shit out of any zerg on ladder.
here, we even fixed the lategame Raven shenanigans :D
Holy shit, now I'm actually wondering if researching Neosteel frames would be viable for this. I remember seeing Jjakji (I think it was Jjakji) doing it on Calm Before the Storm to bunker rush a protoss to death because the research is so fast.
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
Don't think zergs would appreciate that kind of change.
Then 10 pool will be a real build again in ZvT. Just as planned.
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
There's a lot of irony in you writing that his post sounds like whining(which it isn't) and then your next paragraph is full of you whining. You also refer to someone who stated that he is a Terran player in the second person, implying that he is a Protoss. Your post reads like the internet equivalent of walking up to a stranger, saying "no offense", and then kicking them in the balls and spitting in their face.
Also wtf is a proxy DT drop? Are you telling me that an early game investment of 600 as SHOULDNT kill any probes? How would you even take serious damage from a proxy build that requires 600 gas you should easily be ready for something like that.
Blink is getting nerfed deservedly so don't worry about that anymore, and proxy oracle isn't as popular because of the high prevalence of reaper expands with heavy scouting.
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad.
The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
They dealt with it just fine even when mines killed probes in its full radius, and this change is still an overall nerf compared to that.
I don't know if you are just clueless because this is not a new strategy at all and even it its old form its was perfectly manageable.
.... I said it was fine overall? Not sure why you are calling me clueless, I'm aware its what they used to do before they got nerfed, but they got nerfed largely because the harass was so powerful.
My memory was that it got nerfed because a widow mine could kill 20 banelings in a single shot.
Zergs were already dealing with widow mines very well at the time, and zerg was winning more and more against bio-mine. The stated reason was that they wanted to see more tanks and mines rather than just mines alone, but that doesn't make any sense.
Zergs were doing better against hellion harass in May 2012, we still got range 5 queens.
On February 11 2014 07:56 Ammanas wrote: Can someone pls explain to me how exactly will MSC range change influence the blink allin in any way?
No more risk-free full intel about Terran's defence, MSC will need to be closer if Protoss wants to see further = more risk involved.
makes sense, but doesn't it mean it will not really nerf the push? The push will be no less defendable when executed correctly, just much more coin-flippy. I guess that's basically the opposite of buffs such as prism shield buff and queen range as in it will not make it MUCH worse, it will just discourage people.
And as far as sniping MSC goes, how exactly? It has 9 vision, marine has 6 range. If positioned correctly you can blink in and marines can't touch it.
On February 11 2014 07:53 Destructicon wrote: Ok guys, I see a lot of other people here that think the blink CD nerf is too much. We kind of managed to make Blizz listen regarding the vision nerf, lets think up an appropriate change that won't destroy blink in all MU's but will help terran specifically against blink all-ins more.
Bunkers start with + armor and capacity upgrades. Done.
proxy 11-11 the shit out of any zerg on ladder.
here, we even fixed the lategame Raven shenanigans :D
Holy shit, now I'm actually wondering if researching Neosteel frames would be viable for this. I remember seeing Jjakji (I think it was Jjakji) doing it on Calm Before the Storm to bunker rush a protoss to death because the research is so fast.
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad.
The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
They dealt with it just fine even when mines killed probes in its full radius, and this change is still an overall nerf compared to that.
I don't know if you are just clueless because this is not a new strategy at all and even it its old form its was perfectly manageable.
.... I said it was fine overall? Not sure why you are calling me clueless, I'm aware its what they used to do before they got nerfed, but they got nerfed largely because the harass was so powerful.
My memory was that it got nerfed because a widow mine could kill 20 banelings in a single shot.
Zergs were already dealing with widow mines very well at the time, and zerg was winning more and more against bio-mine. The stated reason was that they wanted to see more tanks and mines rather than just mines alone, but that doesn't make any sense.
Zergs were doing better against hellion harass in May 2012, we still got range 5 queens.
Yeah, that was dumb too. I don't see an inconsistency here.
Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does:
As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
Is your replay pre or post wm nerf? No offense but this sounds like a bunch of whining to me. You have cannons, photon overcharge, etc.
You also have chrono boost, let's not short ourselves in the economy talk. After many games of being proxy-oracled, proxy DT drop, blink all-in, your counter rebuttal makes me laugh. EDIT: Laughable in a sense that scv losses are almost guaranteed by all three of those builds I just mentioned.
There's a lot of irony in you writing that his post sounds like whining(which it isn't) and then your next paragraph is full of you whining. You also refer to someone who stated that he is a Terran player in the second person, implying that he is a Protoss. Your post reads like the internet equivalent of walking up to a stranger, saying "no offense", and then kicking them in the balls and spitting in their face.
Also wtf is a proxy DT drop? Are you telling me that an early game investment of 600 as SHOULDNT kill any probes? How would you even take serious damage from a proxy build that requires 600 gas you should easily be ready for something like that.
Blink is getting nerfed deservedly so don't worry about that anymore, and proxy oracle isn't as popular because of the high prevalence of reaper expands with heavy scouting.
Quickly browse the last pages of the Balance discussion thread and you will see why this guy is getting called out like that...
EPT
