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On February 11 2014 07:27 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:22 Skynx wrote:
Bit unrelated but I think it's time to give hellbats a buff, just saying. Why? Hellbats are already really strong. They are tanky and rip through zealots/lings like nobody's business. I love it when I see Terran players mix in hellbats vs Zealot heavy Protoss armies, it makes a HUGE difference lol
I will say that finally DK has gone on the point.. Well - probably mainly cause I've been saying that for ages now.. 
But yah - the WM change will mean at least the very following - even if you're not pro at splitting Marines - you can occasionally try mech (or even better - Light-Mech-Marauder - a bit of a hybrid --> Hellbat/Marauder/Mine - like - keep all your Reactors to factories, and keep all your techlabs to Rax) vs Protoss now if they are decent enough to guard the approaches vs Tanks.. And I think they will be now
Like - I don't mind if the Immortals or Archons can bust Tank lines, but really the problem is that Zealots can do that fairly easy ATM.. So yah - the WM finally is worked on now
On the broader looks - it will mean the following for the TvP - no longer the deciding factor of TvPs will be if you are a good Marine spreader.. There's finally (hopefully for all us lesser-skilled players) an alternative now 
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As a Terran player, I dislike the Blink Stalker change. It'll remove the early Protoss pressure and completely remove the usefulness of Blink Stalkers in all early and mid game matchups.
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On February 11 2014 07:31 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:30 r691175002 wrote:
Loving the Protoss tears. Only thing better will be if the change goes through.
Most of the tears aren't even warranted for. It's complaining about having to micro workers against a unit that still has lower damage potential than before the nerf for a whole other matchup xP
I'm all for the mine upgrade, I think its a really cool idea and might also help with oracle based strats (you would need detection earlier if mines became popular again)
Its just the blink nerf and to a lesser extent hydra buff that get me
I love opening 2star voidray, I think stronger hydras would shut down skytoss openers
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On February 11 2014 07:39 geokilla wrote:
As a Terran player, I dislike the Blink Stalker change. It'll remove the early Protoss pressure and completely remove the usefulness of Blink Stalkers in all early and mid game matchups.
I salute you my friend for this statement, but I think isn't that the change is a bad idea, but it is that it's too drastic done.. 15 sec up from 10 is far too much
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On February 11 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line. Aww  Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
It is very unforgiving if you don't pay attention for a couple of seconds and literally most of your entire worker line dies, especially when it is so early in the game. That said, it was quite manageable in the past when you do react on time, so i'm not necessarily against this change. This and the mothership core vision nerf will probably require Protoss to go back to doing safer robo/forge builds every game, but that is potentially a good thing.
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No but seriously someone edit this in a disclaimer in the OP
FOR EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT BLINK CHANGE
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
This is a more direct nerf that affects all Protoss players. If Blink play continues to be problematic, this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.
Note the "if". They're not patching it in with this change, they're testing it in the current environment. The idea is that should Blink builds be too powerful in the coming patch, they have a change tested and ready so we don't have to wait another round of testing. It's their way of saying "We don't know what the next needed change will be, but I'm guessing Blink, so just to be safe, let's have a change warming up on the back burner"
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Gonna offer my views for 2v2 as well, since I hardly ever play 1v1 anymore.
MSC - won't really affect anything. Will be good for 1v1 though, reducing the strength of blink stalker all ins.
Blink - will change so much. I hardly ever use blink in 2v2 anyway, but PvP will be altered significantly. Whether it will affect micro positively or negatively (every blink is more significant, but misjudged blinks will be punished hugely) remains to be seen. It will reduce the strength of blink stalker all ins vs Terran though, which is good.
Widow mines - oh god. Widow mine drops in 2v2 are super super strong. Now they can basically kill all the probes in an instant. This will be super hard to deal with. Sad times.
Tempest - I think this will really benefit against the stagnant, boring swarm host play. It will however open doors for more proxy tempest shenanigans. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Considering carrier turtles are a legit strat in 2v2, I wouldn't be surprised to see oracle/tempest/msc base sniping going on.
Hydralisk - the hydra attacks super fast anyway. I think the problem is they're too squishy for their cost. A +10 hp buff, maybe adding +1 armour to the muscular alignments upgrade or something would be better in my opinion. Will likely change ZvZ a bit too though, which could be good.
All in all, okay changes. The only one I'm really against is the widow mine one because it really will punish players who aren't looking for more than a few seconds at their base. This isn't the kind of thing new players are going to find attractive. A widow mine drop is easy to execute and hard to defend for lower league players.
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On February 11 2014 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:39 geokilla wrote:
As a Terran player, I dislike the Blink Stalker change. It'll remove the early Protoss pressure and completely remove the usefulness of Blink Stalkers in all early and mid game matchups. I salute you my friend for this statement, but I think isn't that the change is a bad idea, but it is that it's too drastic done.. 15 sec up from 10 is far too much
Why? something like 12 seconds would hardly be noticeable
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Why does the blink cool down even cross their minds?
I haven't heard anyone asking about making any units LESS microable..
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The blink change wont go through anyway, they are just testing it as a general nerf to protoss. I think vision nerf, wm and hydra buff will go through, tempest change and blink wont.
But we will see soon I guess.
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All in all, okay changes. The only one I'm really against is the widow mine one because it really will punish players who aren't looking for more than a few seconds at their base. This isn't the kind of thing new players are going to find attractive. A widow mine drop is easy to execute and hard to defend for lower league players.
So is an oracle, what's your point? For that matter l, 8 marines in a medivac is just as deadly for lower league players. SC is a hard game.
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Im ok with all the changes, but that mine boost is a bit too much in my opinion. Mines are already a pain, mainly against early preassure.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:36 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:33 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:32 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:30 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5. That's a map specific problem. Ok, how many widow mines do you need to cover these maps: Daedulus Polar Night Star Station Yeonsu Alterzim Heavy Rain Frost Akilon I don't know, and I don't care. Someone else will figure it out. Plus, maps are way easier to change than tweaking balance lol I actually think its the opposite though. We get more balance patches than we do map changes. The other thing is...do you really need full mine coverage? Just the threat of mines is enough, imo. Otherwise you start gambling. "Does he have a mine there or not?!?!?" Mind games like that happen in SC2 all the time. Even if it just makes Protoss do Observer style blink all-ins, it will be better as those hit later, and gives Terran more time to prepare.
No Protoss worth his salt needs an obs to see a widow mine. So long as they have some amount of vision they can see it. The real nerfs to Protoss blink attacks are the vision on the MsC, the possible blink cd and the increased energy on timewarp.
I can't think of any protoss who should lose 2-3 stalkers to a widow mine even if this buff went through. And beyond that, there are still variations of blink all-is (Duckdeok's that starts with a proxy oracle and Mc's that starts with an early sentry) that can both easily defuse a Terran that overrelies on WM defense against Blink. It's the maps that make blink extremely viable, more so than any numbers tweaking done to the units imo.
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As a zerg/terran player, I do not agree with the blink nerf. Blink existed in that form forever, and it got a bit imbalanced due to the MSC being able to spot any defense or rather weak spot. Combined with spellcasters (like MSC + Sentry) that are available early game, I think blink still is okay. The MSC is the problem, and the vision nerf approach feels great. Nerf the vision and reduce the overcharge to 30-40 seconds (even that is stupidly long), and please(!) approach the swarm host / mech turtle issue.
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Last week i installed and uninstalled twice..
If these changes goes through I am prepared to give it another try!
Vision change is good.
I am not a fan of blink change, I don't think vision change is enough for blink allins but this is not the way to go.
WM change wont affect much but I guess WM drops will work better as harassment.
Anytime hydras can shoot freely in pvz they already wreck shit so I don't think this will change much. Maby hydras will work better in zvt.
Tempest change is silly.
edit (terran/zerg here)
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if said it before i'll say it again every blink all-in problem would be fixed by making mothershipcore a ground unit
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On February 11 2014 07:44 Qwerty85 wrote:
The blink change wont go through anyway, they are just testing it as a general nerf to protoss. I think vision nerf, wm and hydra buff will go through, tempest change and blink wont.
But we will see soon I guess.
I wouldn't want them to buff the tempest if they aren't buffing the hydra, but I wouldn't want the opposite either. These two should go hand in hand, imo.
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also the widow mine effect could be hugely detrimental to toss vs mech it could make it viable give it a timing or laucnh it to being way over powered
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On February 11 2014 07:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:On February 11 2014 07:39 geokilla wrote:
As a Terran player, I dislike the Blink Stalker change. It'll remove the early Protoss pressure and completely remove the usefulness of Blink Stalkers in all early and mid game matchups. I salute you my friend for this statement, but I think isn't that the change is a bad idea, but it is that it's too drastic done.. 15 sec up from 10 is far too much Why? something like 12 seconds would hardly be noticeable
It means a Stalker takes 20% more damage until it can be blunk away.
It's a huge change.
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On February 11 2014 07:43 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:40 VArsovskiSC wrote:On February 11 2014 07:39 geokilla wrote:
As a Terran player, I dislike the Blink Stalker change. It'll remove the early Protoss pressure and completely remove the usefulness of Blink Stalkers in all early and mid game matchups. I salute you my friend for this statement, but I think isn't that the change is a bad idea, but it is that it's too drastic done.. 15 sec up from 10 is far too much Why? something like 12 seconds would hardly be noticeable
Not really - you're not thinking the vs Zerg Roach vs Stalker battles.. Protoss can't afford to have Sentires all game long.. They're openers, enders, or if preserved well - part of the deathball.. But can't afford to make those just because having Stalkers.., and the foremost - you're not including the new change of the Widow-Mine..
So yah - the direction is good, but still needs some more testing now..
Already like the changes A LOT.. The blink nerf however is far too harsh.. Instead of nerfing the Stalker far too hard - add up some "nice" bonus of the mine to deal with the problem.. Just the blink all-in case-scenario in PvT shouldn't dictate all Protoss matchups so hard
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EPT
