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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all.
Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad.
The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
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Bit unrelated but I think it's time to give hellbats a buff, just saying.
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I especially like the WidowMine proposed change, but I would really like for the rest of the previous WM nerfs to be reverted to some degree since they were VERY excessive.
I hope to see more WM beneficial changes in the future.
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On February 11 2014 07:20 D4V3Z02 wrote:Now the true bias of pros is showing, progamer feedback is so weak in many ways.
LOL, what do you mean now? :D
Most of the pros were always biased as hell towards their own race and they are pretty known for judging before even testing stuff.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:21 Bagi wrote:
Isn't it pretty obvious though this blink nerf is an answer to protoss domination in general, not just blink all ins against terran?
2 birds with one stone and all that, if you don't like it then you should suggest alternative nerfs to overall protoss.
You don't have to nerf protoss to fix dominance, you can buff zerg and terran. The mothership core nerf combined with the widow mine buff seems like it will help TvP a fair bit. The hydra buff should help a bit too.
I don't think blink should be touched, nerfing it will strongly impact PvP.
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On February 11 2014 07:21 Bagi wrote:
Isn't it pretty obvious though this blink nerf is an answer to protoss domination in general, not just blink all ins against terran?
2 birds with one stone and all that, if you don't like it then you should suggest alternative nerfs to overall protoss.
win rates are currently 50% in ZvX, the only matchup that needs fixing balance-wise is PvT, the MSC vision range and maybe a smaller blink nerf should be enough to bring that to 50%.
ZvP is broken design-wise but that's another issue.
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On February 11 2014 07:20 D4V3Z02 wrote:Now the true bias of pros is showing, progamer feedback is so weak in many ways.
Lol, I remember the first time we saw a Korean protoss do a storm drop. A protoss caster (I think it was ToD or Grubby) was saying that this is amazing because it only works when master league players are trolling lower leagues.
Now we see storm drops all the time.
Proxy tempest could be strong on maps that have a lot of dead space around main bases
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So would the blink nerf fix the apparent imbalance with blink allins in pvt? i think they tried to nerf timewarp, but people said you only need one anyway, so that wouldn't help. does this help?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over.
How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5.
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On February 11 2014 07:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad. The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
They dealt with it just fine even when mines killed probes in its full radius, and this change is still an overall nerf compared to that.
I don't know if you are just clueless because this is not a new strategy at all and even it its old form its was perfectly manageable.
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Okay with mothership core vision nerf. Blink nerf is way too ridiculous and would heavily affect all matchups. Not sure i like the widow mine buff but i think it is worth testing a bit. Tempest change needs more testing but i think it could possibly be a good change. Hydralisk change i'm still unsure of, i know they want to buff it to be usable in TvZ but the DPS of the hydra has never been the problem with the unit. Also, his comment that there is a trend that Protoss is stronger than Zerg does seem a bit weird considering how ridiculously strong SH turtle is atm.
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4713 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5.
I'm thinking more like 6 or 7, might have to load up a map and have a look.
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OK - I'm both happy.. And maybe a bit worried..
Happy cause they finally are testing the Widow-Mine vs Protoss.. Something I've been pointing at for months now
Worried cause not sure how vision would work on MSC.. It's already crowd-favorite for a long-time though, so I guess I don't see something about that one
The Blink nerf however goes far too far.. There are some PvZ games won by the Protoss Baaarely.. True that most of the time if the Zerg defending isn't Jaedong will occasionally get pushed by good blink-stalker micro, so like maybe around 70% of the Blink-push games are won by the Protoss I think ATM.. But to go that one up to 15 from 10 is just too far.. (more like 12 would be more appropriate I feel).. PvT isn't the only matchup where Blink play is important, gotta think of PvZ chances to preserve the blink aggression as well..
Hard nerf Stalker won't be needed if in any possible form we see the change to the Widow-Mine.. Ofc. though - it would be even better if the WM vs Shields damage is lesser vs Air targets IMO..
Mines should probably be good vs Zealot/Stalker/Robo, but not vs VoidRays and Prisms as much
I like the rest of the changes though.. They will certainly bring in some new fresh blood 
Perhaps increasing the Siege-Tank range to 14 and making Locusts slightly faster (on creep - they currently have a diminished on-creep bonus - i.e. - 40% movement-speed bonus instead of the regular 50%) but less on lifetime would be a good change as well IMO.. Like - make the Enduring-Locusts upgrade increase the Locust lifetime by 5 seconds instead of 10, but yah - as a compensation - make it's bonus on creep be regular instead of diminished
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On February 11 2014 07:22 Skynx wrote:
Bit unrelated but I think it's time to give hellbats a buff, just saying.
Why? Hellbats are already really strong. They are tanky and rip through zealots/lings like nobody's business. I love it when I see Terran players mix in hellbats vs Zealot heavy Protoss armies, it makes a HUGE difference lol
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On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all.
Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times).
It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
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On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5.
That's a map specific problem.
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On February 11 2014 07:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad. The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
It's still worse than before the nerf that had nothing to do with your matchup. What are you complaining about?
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On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5.
why are you so grumpy?
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I agree with all these changes.
Maybe the blink nerf is a bit too much tho (and i'm saying that as a terran player ).
I sometimes somewhat use mines against protoss, but i always gets me how they do so poorly against those hugely shielded units.
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On February 11 2014 07:22 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Right, but micro'ing the probes away is risky if you aren't super fast (which is fine IMO). If you clump them up and the shot goes off while they are running, you lose MORE than if you hadn't micro'd at all. If terrans get the burrow speed upgrade for them and do this harass, it's going to be terrifying, since a cannon or two won't kill the mines fast enough to stop a shot, but I suppose that if a pro player can deal with it (and they should), it isn't too bad. The widow mine change seems a little excessive, but I'm more or less okay with it overall.
The game is littered with scenarios that can mean GG if not reacted to properly or scouted in time. That's the nature of the game and the only reason I posted that.
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EPT
