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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 06:54 dyDrawer wrote:
Solid changes overall IMO. FINALLY THE MSC RANGE. Blink nerf a little too much. Nerfing it so it's defendable is one thing, nerfing it to the point of destruction is too much. Widow Mine against Protoss... hmm... I doubt it'll seriously change the opening in TvP, as the early Forge opening developed by sOs still shuts it down very well. Maybe it'll force the Protoss to play a little less greedy (i.e. build Cannons)? I'm more interested in its performance in head on battles. Theoretically it could counter the all so popular Templar openings, as Chagelots that accompany these openings are a little more vulnerable.
Tempest change and Hydra change... worthy of a test definitely. Let's see how these turn out.
That was Rain's forge opening, not sOs's.
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This is way too many big changes in the same map at the same time. Also, changes are drastic man. 14 to 9? I've said from the beginning that mshipcore vision range was ridiculous. It took them one year to try a nerf and they try a 5 point neft lol what the fuck is this. Hell will break loose in tvp. No protoss will ever want to play this test map.
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Hope they try blink on 12, stalkers are to weak to take damage for 15 seconds.
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On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro?
What's your point? Without observers, you can't see where the mines even are. You really think Protoss players will want to blindly blink into a Terran base if they think there might be buffed widow mines around? That splash damage buff is pretty big. Plus, even if the mines just make the Protoss player blink away, they've done their job as a deterrent to buy more time.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:10 Names wrote:
This is way too many big changes in the same map at the same time. Also, changes are drastic man. 14 to 9? I've said from the beginning that mshipcore vision range was ridiculous. It took them one year to try a nerf and they try a 5 point neft lol what the fuck is this. Hell will break loose in tvp. No protoss will ever want to play this test map.
14 to 9 is fine, I'm more concerned with this blink nerf being overkill. Hydras getting a 10% dps buff overall might be okay, only one way to find out.
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On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die.
Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
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TvP Mech is going to be OP.
You've read it here first.
@xxjcdentonxx : yes
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This test map is simply ludicrous.
They're nerfing Mothership core vision by 60% and Blink cooldown by 50%. At the same time.
How do you even begin to scientifically analyze the impact of the changes when the changes are simultaneous and this large?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:11 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? What's your point? Without observers, you can't see where the mines even are. You really think Protoss players will want to blindly blink into a Terran base if they think there might be buffed widow mines around? That splash damage buff is pretty big. Plus, even if the mines just make the Protoss player blink away, they've done their job as a deterrent to buy more time.
You can see where the mines are without obs.
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Approve vision - everybody is talking about this and finally we see it tested
Blink delay is pretty harsh and may make blink harassment in general pretty iffy
Widowmine damage is interesting and worth a try. It may help TvP mech openings or even bio widowmine for early aggression not to mention hurt blink stalker "all ins"
Tempest change is a bandaid fix to a really dumb lategame interaction between Toss and Zerg. We deserve better.
Hydra attack reduction is interesting and worth testing for sure as this may make them better vs bio, roaches, mutas, and void rays. Only concern is how this will impact PvZ but it may be fine as hydras force colossus anyways as it is.
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On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
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On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit?
Yes.
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On February 11 2014 07:15 DinoMight wrote:
This test map is simply ludicrous.
They're nerfing Mothership core vision by 60% and Blink cooldown by 50%. At the same time.
How do you even begin to scientifically analyze the impact of the changes when the changes are simultaneous and this large?
How do you analyzea ny simultanious change? How do you analyze those at all without player skill playing a role?
Test maps are probably just to prevent them from making massive gamechanging mistakes (akin to giving the Marine 15 damage, marine rushes would be unstopable, they'd notice, they'd not patch.)
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I'm against the blink nerf going through, seems too much. I think all these changes are likely too do for TvP is make it so Protoss has less aggressive options, making the remaining ones esier to scout, meaning that Terran can play greedier ( which might help even out win rates), but it wont help Terran be aggressive at all so we'll like end up with ~10 minutes of passive play every TvP, which will be less entertaining both for players and viewers.
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On February 11 2014 05:14 Aeromi wrote:
Now the true bias of pros is showing, progamer feedback is so weak in many ways.
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To everyone upset with the Blink change, read the fine print:
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
This is a more direct nerf that affects all Protoss players. If Blink play continues to be problematic, this is the sort of thing we’d want to have tested and prepared to put in the game.
Note the "if". They're not patching it in with this change, they're testing it in the current environment. The idea is that should Blink builds be too powerful in the coming patch, they have a change tested and ready so we don't have to wait another round of testing. It's their way of saying "We don't know what the next needed change will be, but I'm guessing Blink, so just to be safe, let's have a change warming up on the back burner"
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On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
So micro your probes away?
This is Starcraft, after all.
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On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG.
With this change, Probes in the secondary widow mine radius die, in the third radius (the largest) they survive.
So, it's still better than before the 'TvZ is getting stale so let's nerf a core unit' patch.
You are quite adamant about preventing any of the changes by the way, already. Can you show me some test map replays?
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Isn't it pretty obvious though this blink nerf is an answer to protoss domination in general, not just blink all ins against terran?
2 birds with one stone and all that, if you don't like it then you should suggest alternative nerfs to overall protoss.
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On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro?
You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over.
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EPT
