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On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Aww 
Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
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On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Widow mine takes 3 seconds to burrow + at least 3 more seconds from when you spot the medivac until it goes to the mineral line. It is not a lot of time but it is still enough time to react. And at least mines won't be able to chase your probes like oracle can. Not to mention that mine drop comes like 2 minutes later than for example fastest proxy oracle.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5. That's a map specific problem.
Ok, how many widow mines do you need to cover these maps:
Daedulus
Polar Night
Star Station
Yeonsu
Alterzim
Heavy Rain
Frost
Akilon
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Loving the Protoss tears. Only thing better will be if the change goes through.
I think 11/12s on blink and/or a 5/10s increase on the research time would be sufficient.
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On February 11 2014 07:30 r691175002 wrote:
Loving the Protoss tears. Only thing better will be if the change goes through.
Most of the tears aren't even warranted for. It's complaining about having to micro workers against a unit that still has lower damage potential than before the nerf for a whole other matchup xP
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On February 11 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line. Aww Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
I kind of agree. I suck vs Widow Mine drops, but it's because my scouting and minimap awareness isn't as good as I would like. That's 85% of what it takes to deal with early game widow mine drops (which is what everyone seems to be freaking out about) and the rest is just not screwing up your build order so you have units to actually defend. You can pretty much say the same thing about Oracle openers lol
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On February 11 2014 07:30 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5. That's a map specific problem. Ok, how many widow mines do you need to cover these maps: Daedulus Polar Night Star Station Yeonsu Alterzim Heavy Rain Frost Akilon
I don't know, and I don't care. Someone else will figure it out. Plus, maps are way easier to change than tweaking balance lol
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On February 11 2014 07:30 r691175002 wrote:
Loving the Protoss tears. Only thing better will be if the change goes through.
I think 11/12s on blink and/or a 5/10s increase on the research time would be sufficient.
Until the Tempest buff goes thru and terrans tears continue :D
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:30 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5. That's a map specific problem. Ok, how many widow mines do you need to cover these maps: Daedulus Polar Night Star Station Yeonsu Alterzim Heavy Rain Frost Akilon
Daedulus: 7-8
Polar Night: 4-5
Star Station: 6
Yeonsu: 5-7
Alterzim: 3-4
Heavy Rain: 9?
Frost: 3-4
Akilon: 5-6?
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On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
Please. The potential new Mine would still be weaker than the old one, which was already more than manageable.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On February 11 2014 07:32 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:30 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5. That's a map specific problem. Ok, how many widow mines do you need to cover these maps: Daedulus Polar Night Star Station Yeonsu Alterzim Heavy Rain Frost Akilon I don't know, and I don't care. Someone else will figure it out. Plus, maps are way easier to change than tweaking balance lol
I actually think its the opposite though. We get more balance patches than we do map changes.
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My thoughts on these from Terran point of view:
MSC Range
It has been asked for a while now, I would say it is about time. First I was unsure about the number 9, I felt that 10 or 11 would be better choice but after thinking about it more it makes perfect sense. MSC main purpose should be for defense and not to give extra vision for protoss thus 9 vision range seems right to me.
Blink CD
I sincerely hope this won´t go through, I like to watch blink play but not the kind of blink play we are seeing right now when protoss blinks and ends the game right there. Personally I don´t find blink to an issue, rather to me the issue is blink "all-in" with MSC. We should rather first see how much of a difference the vision range change does. I liked to play against blink in WoL, it just got out of hand with HotS, and I literally stopped playing for a while because of blink and protoss.
Widow Mine
This could be one thing that could really make a good shift in meta-game. It could open up new builds for terran and create interesting games, for example, I could see this promoting new playstyles such as the one we are seeing where terran floats factory near protoss base and start making widow mines with mid-game push. However, I really don´t want this change to affect probe harass, mines are already good at that. I don´t want widow mine to become like oracle that is good at wiping out mineral lines and ending games right there.
Tempest
Doesn´t seem like the right direction to go about the Swarm Host issue. If we think back to early WoL, when terrans were abusing early game reapers, you would think Blizzard learned that giving units extra damage against structures isn´t necessarily good idea and shouldn´t happen again.
Hydralisk
The idea is to encourage Hydralisk play in TvZ and ZvZ but to me it feels that this change concerns PvZ the most and should be considered with PvZ in mind, and I really don´t know too much about PvZ.
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On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line.
I said "micro" not pull everything and hope. If you have good map awareness and see the Medivac coming in, you should reasonably be able to pull workers no? If the T pressures the front and drops simultaneously in the mineral line, I would say that's intelligent play.
An unscouted DT shrine drop can have the same effect of wiping out a mineral line. I guess I just don't see the big deal here.
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Wow - I am disgustingly happy about the hydra buff :D
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Best balance map notes I have ever seen. It's like they've seen the light suddenly.
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On February 11 2014 07:33 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:32 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:30 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:28 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:25 stuchiu wrote:On February 11 2014 07:21 Xinzoe wrote:On February 11 2014 07:07 TeeTS wrote:On February 11 2014 07:05 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On February 11 2014 07:04 Xinzoe wrote:
The changes individually make sense. But a combination of BOTH blink nerf and MSC nerf is too much. Blizzard should just pick one imo. Tempest change might solve the problem of stalemates in PvZ (or at least 60+ minute long games). Hydralisks are probably too powerful now after reaching critical mass, i think combined upgrades for speed + range will be better. Don't forget the widow mine buff, that's also an indirect nerf to blink all-ins because you can still dodge the shots with blink micro? You just put widow mines in spots where they blink up. Then how will you dodge? :D You'll probably lose 2-3 stalkers and the all-in is pretty much over. How many widow mines do you need to cover Yeonsu? I'd say about 5. That's a map specific problem. Ok, how many widow mines do you need to cover these maps: Daedulus Polar Night Star Station Yeonsu Alterzim Heavy Rain Frost Akilon I don't know, and I don't care. Someone else will figure it out. Plus, maps are way easier to change than tweaking balance lol I actually think its the opposite though. We get more balance patches than we do map changes.
The other thing is...do you really need full mine coverage? Just the threat of mines is enough, imo. Otherwise you start gambling. "Does he have a mine there or not?!?!?" Mind games like that happen in SC2 all the time.
Even if it just makes Protoss do Observer style blink all-ins, it will be better as those hit later, and gives Terran more time to prepare.
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As long as MSC vision is equal to or greater than Time Warp casting range, it will not significantly decrease the strength of blink all ins. I still think MSC vision should be changed though.
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I don't think the range reduction will be enough, it still gives enough to vision to safely see what you're blinking into.
Cool down definitely sounds a good change, it'll increase that critical mass at which stalkers can continuously blink.
The tempest thing is crazy town.... it's the swarm host that's busted, this just makes PvZ even more compositional, and it will affect all of the other matchups too...
The EMP mine thing is silly and hard to reason. It might work but it's kind of like the reaper regen thing, even if it works it just feels like it doesn't belong. They're already strong in rushed drop/runbys so I'm not sure that's a good thing.
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Mothership Core vision radius decreased from 14 to 9
It's about time lol
Blink cooldown increased from 10 to 15
Ridiculous tbh, massive nerf. That's a 50% increase in blink cooldown, that's NUTS. 2 blinks now for the same time you could do 3 before. Also kills tactics that use blink to keep ppl in their base, blinking is so ridiculously risky now. No way no way no way, talk about over nerfing.... A direct nerf to blink is not the solution to TvP blink all-in (the only situation in the entire game where blink is a problem), you're killing a ton of strategy and micro just to attempt to fix one all in in one of the 9 matchups?
Widow Mine splash damage component deals 40 + 40 shield damage
What a random change. I can see what they were going for in the late game here, but isn't hellbats enough already to remove the zealot threat (this is all it'd do, don't pretend it'd ever hit a ranged unit against a good toss). Also it makes widow mine drops more gimmicky against lower level players... I don't like it, especially a buff to a "just set it and leave it" micro unit
Tempest ground weapon damage increased from 30 to 30+30-to-structures
This is still a silly change. This is not the issue with swarm hosts, and kinda has a dumb effect in other matchups. Please fix swarm hosts instead of a silly bandaid (attempted) fix
Hydralisk delay between attacks decreased from .83 to .75
I guess?? Idk, I'd have to see it in action to see the impact
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On February 11 2014 07:30 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 07:27 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:20 Ctone23 wrote:On February 11 2014 07:17 DinoMight wrote:On February 11 2014 07:14 xxjcdentonxx wrote:On February 11 2014 06:09 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 06:02 Nebuchad wrote:On February 11 2014 06:00 DaveSprite wrote:On February 11 2014 05:59 Nebuchad wrote:
when we say 20 (+40 shield), do we mean it removes 40 shield, or it removes 40 "life" from units who have shield? That isn't the same thing at all. It removes 40 shield. The latter would be freaking retarded. Shield is a resource, like hp or energy, that can be decremented individually than either of the above. Then how does the buff increase chances of killing workers with splash damage? The shot splash currently does: 40 damage (kills probes) 20 damage (probe lives) 10 damage Assuming they haven't accidentally reverted the previous WM nerf as per my first post in this thread, AND the shield damage is appropriately proportioned the shot now does: 40 damage + 40 shield (kills probe) 20 damage + 20 shield (kills probe) 10 damage + 10 shield (probe lives) As you can see, there are probes farther from the shot that die. Does that mean that currently, the shield damage is applied to only one single unit, whichever is directly hit? Yes. With this change it's actually pretty feasible that 2 widow mines wipe 75% or so of a mineral line given the base range, splash range, and damage in the splash range. If you drop 2 mines in a mineral line and they both happen to shoot inward it's pretty much GG. So micro your probes away? This is Starcraft, after all. Do you know how hard that is? If you select them all quickly and pull you're actually increasing the chances that one hit could kill your whole mineral line (it has happened to me many times). It's like having to split marines against an instant bling detonation. Except in your worker line. Aww Still better for you than pre mine nerf for TvZ, so stop whining about microing probes. If you let a 1/1/1 get mines in your mineral line AND are to slow to respond you deserver to lose workers.
Have you ever even played Protoss? Because I've played Terran. A lot. For starters, a medivac is the same size on the minimap as a marine. For comparison a Warp Prism is 4x as big on the minimap. With Turbovacs it moves insanely fast. So unless you are staring at your base, it's quite hard to catch immediately.
Then there's the issue of splitting the workers. When the mines drop they spread out quite a bit because of the speed the Medivac is traveling at. So you basically have 3 seconds to decide where the ideal place to send every probe is and to actually click there.
And then one misclick can cost you close to every single probe (I'm not exaggerating here and I can show you replays of me as Terran doing this to Protosses on ladder).
Then there's the fact that you don't even get an attack warning, because the widow mine hit is instantaneous...so when you do hear "your workers are under attack" it means half of them are already dead and you better get an observer over there fast.
So yes. It's very hard to deal with unless you're fucking Hawkeye. Now add the fact that Protoss has the most difficult time recovering from worker losses (no MULES, can't make 15 drones at once) and you'll see why every Protoss player is up in arms about this widow mine patch. I really don't think its unreasonable to be upset by this.
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EPT
