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On January 13 2014 00:23 forsooth wrote:
Some of those games are quite interesting. The only thing I saw that I thought needed a definite fix was the amount of time it takes for a spider mine to trigger. Seems much longer than it should be. Dark swarm's visibility was also pretty crap on that desert terrain.
The difference is that after it triggers, it always hits. In BW you could kill it while it went towards the target. The total effect should be roughly the same as in BW.
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Thanks for supporting this, TB. The games looking really fun, I would love to see more of this.
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I like the fact that everything seems so OP, the few games I saw were very exciting :D
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On January 13 2014 00:07 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 00:01 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 23:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information. Then people will just use more tumors and creep a little bit slower in one direction, i don't think that fixes the "vision problem" , just makes it a little bit harder The other alternative is you make them like sensor towers, so you only know that there are unit there, not what they are. Great idea. Makes sense thematically too. Units are walking on top of creep, they sense a unit is there, but don't see.
Really good idea IMO.
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On January 12 2014 23:37 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:26 Cheerio wrote:
what is the difference between stalker and dragoon roles and viper vs defiler roles? What is the role of the scout? Dragoons hit harder, have more HP and is probably the most well rounded unit in the game. Great for big battles, but are quite expensive for what they do.
pretty sure that being "most well rounded unit in the game" and being "quite expensive for what they do" contradict each other.
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On January 12 2014 23:12 decemberscalm wrote:
@thezansuric
50% less damage shooting up is also not ideal. The armor system calculates it in a way so that armor is more punishing to faster firing units when damage has been reduced.
And you are telling me that it's literally impossible to work around that? If the attack was supposed to do 10 dmg it does 5 if its supposed to do 7 it does 3.5 (Not a problem since SC2 accounts for decimals)
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The games look amazing. Can't wait to play 
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I see that old versions of SB have Dark Archon but current don't. I am interested what was reason to kick DA. I know that big problem with them was 50 mana at start and you morph them when your DTs failed so you fail behind and don't have time to wait and they need support to kill units in mealstrom.
What you think about them starting not having mana and using shields for casting spells and you nerf casting range of spells to 3,4.
PS: sorry for bad english not first language.
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I think you guys are onto something with this
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On January 13 2014 00:42 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:12 decemberscalm wrote:
@thezansuric
50% less damage shooting up is also not ideal. The armor system calculates it in a way so that armor is more punishing to faster firing units when damage has been reduced.
And you are telling me that it's literally impossible to work around that? If the attack was supposed to do 10 dmg it does 5 if its supposed to do 7 it does 3.5 (Not a problem since SC2 accounts for decimals)
Lets say we have a dragoon and a marine shooting a tank up a cliff.
SC2 system applies armor last keep in mind after % reductions of attacks or damage taken.
Dragoon
20(base damage)/2(high ground reduction of 50%)=10-1(armor)=9 per shot
Marine
6/2=3-1=2 per shot
Lets throw another point of armor up there.
Dragoon
20/2=10-2=8
Marine
6/2=3-2=1
Lets throw in an even heavier hitter.
Siege Tank
70/2=35-2=33
Armor punishes high fire rate using cliffs MUCH more than it does big hitters.
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^ I assume there is no way to apply damage reduction after armor instead of before? That would be the obvious solution to this, so I suppose it was already considered and impossible but just to be sure I'll ask.
Btw miss % is fine with me, WC3 also had it and it was fine.
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On January 13 2014 01:11 dani` wrote:
^ I assume there is no way to apply damage reduction after armor instead of before? That would be the obvious solution to this, so I suppose it was already considered and impossible but just to be sure I'll ask.
Lets actually math that out vs 2 points of armor.
Dragoon
20-2=18/2=9
Marine
6-2=3/2=1.5
Again, still doesn't exactly seem like a very good solution. Better yes, but not something I'd like to see in the game.
As far at technical feasability, I am pretty sure the armor formula cannot be manipulated in that manner.
I can do it with damage types vs different sizes but not here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone discovered a method for it though.
And true. I think WC3 was worse off to stuff like extremely critical RNG drops on creeps.
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On January 13 2014 01:07 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 00:42 thezanursic wrote:On January 12 2014 23:12 decemberscalm wrote:
@thezansuric
50% less damage shooting up is also not ideal. The armor system calculates it in a way so that armor is more punishing to faster firing units when damage has been reduced.
And you are telling me that it's literally impossible to work around that? If the attack was supposed to do 10 dmg it does 5 if its supposed to do 7 it does 3.5 (Not a problem since SC2 accounts for decimals) Lets say we have a dragoon and a marine shooting a tank up a cliff. SC2 system applies armor last keep in mind after % reductions of attacks or damage taken. Dragoon 20(base damage)/2(high ground reduction of 50%)=10-1(armor)=9 per shot Marine 6/2=3-1=2 per shot Lets throw another point of armor up there. Dragoon 20/2=10-2=8 Marine 6/2=3-2=1 Lets throw in an even heavier hitter. Siege Tank 70/2=35-2=33 Armor punishes high fire rate using cliffs MUCH more than it does big hitters.
No, but I'm asking if it's literally impossible to make armor behave differently as in 1 armor reduced to 0.5 when it comes to high ground 2 to 1. Etc there must be a solution to that problem.
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On January 13 2014 01:17 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 01:07 decemberscalm wrote:On January 13 2014 00:42 thezanursic wrote:On January 12 2014 23:12 decemberscalm wrote:
@thezansuric
50% less damage shooting up is also not ideal. The armor system calculates it in a way so that armor is more punishing to faster firing units when damage has been reduced.
And you are telling me that it's literally impossible to work around that? If the attack was supposed to do 10 dmg it does 5 if its supposed to do 7 it does 3.5 (Not a problem since SC2 accounts for decimals) Lets say we have a dragoon and a marine shooting a tank up a cliff. SC2 system applies armor last keep in mind after % reductions of attacks or damage taken. Dragoon 20(base damage)/2(high ground reduction of 50%)=10-1(armor)=9 per shot Marine 6/2=3-1=2 per shot Lets throw another point of armor up there. Dragoon 20/2=10-2=8 Marine 6/2=3-2=1 Lets throw in an even heavier hitter. Siege Tank 70/2=35-2=33 Armor punishes high fire rate using cliffs MUCH more than it does big hitters. No, but I'm asking if it's literally impossible to make armor behave differently as in 1 armor reduced to 0.5 when it comes to high ground 2 to 1. Etc there must be a solution to that problem. It might be actually. We would need to remake every single weapon for every single unit, and give them all two weapons. One for normal and one for shooting up high ground.
1 armor reducing by .5
Goon 20/2=10-.5=9.5
Marine 6/2=3-.5=2.5
2 armor reducing by 1
Goon
20/2=10-1=9
Rine 6/2=3-1=2
Any reduction of attack is pretty brutal for high fire rate units. Regardless of the armor calculations it seems.
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Just want to say this mod looks really amazing. Will this continue into LOTV? Starbow should take the best elements of LOTV too and if well-supported it can easily surpass vanilla sc2 itself. Because I don't think blizzard will ever make changes like remove the sentry and the colossus and the mothership core and all the gimmicks that is protoss, or return the vulture or lurker to zerg, so I actually think this mod has potential to be better than sc2.
By the way, the high ground miss mechanic, how exactly does it work when there is a slope. Must you be at the top of the slope? What if you are just at the beginning of a slope or ramp and firing on a unit that is not on the ramp? It can sometimes be hard to tell can't it, whether the 50% thing is in play or not, and 50% is massive
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On January 13 2014 01:26 fierywinds wrote:
Just want to say this mod looks really amazing. Will this continue into LOTV? Starbow should take the best elements of LOTV too and if well-supported it can easily surpass vanilla sc2 itself. Because I don't think blizzard will ever make changes like remove the sentry and the colossus and the mothership core and all the gimmicks that is protoss, or return the vulture or lurker to zerg, so I actually think this mod has potential to be better than sc2.
By the way, the high ground miss mechanic, how exactly does it work when there is a slope. Must you be at the top of the slope? What if you are just at the beginning of a slope or ramp and firing on a unit that is not on the ramp? It can sometimes be hard to tell can't it, whether the 50% thing is in play or not, and 50% is massive
This part is actually pretty cool.
If another units is higher than another unit, it will have a 50% miss chance.
If two units are on a ramp, but the bottom one further down than the other it will have the miss chance.
To be safe, you want to clear the "choke" the ramp creates.
Like wise, if you want the high ground advantage vs units below you, as long as you are in the choke of the ramp you will get it.
This is mainly due to the way sc2 engine handles high ground.
edit:Kabel added a picture I whipped up real quick at the bottom of the op to just SHOW highground and how it works.
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On January 13 2014 01:15 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 01:11 dani` wrote:
^ I assume there is no way to apply damage reduction after armor instead of before? That would be the obvious solution to this, so I suppose it was already considered and impossible but just to be sure I'll ask. Lets actually math that out vs 2 points of armor. Dragoon 20-2=18/2=9 Marine 6-2=3/2=1.5Again, still doesn't exactly seem like a very good solution. Better yes, but not something I'd like to see in the game. As far at technical feasability, I am pretty sure the armor formula cannot be manipulated in that manner. I can do it with damage types vs different sizes but not here. I wouldn't be surprised if someone discovered a method for it though. And true. I think WC3 was worse off to stuff like extremely critical RNG drops on creeps.
im pretty sure 6-2=4, not 3
anyway the result is the same either with 50% miss factor or 50% reduction damage after armor (50% of 18 dragoon damage is 9 and 50% of 4 marine damage is 2), the latter just takes randomness out. So it IS better, the question is can it be implemented or not.
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I love how good zerglings are in this mod. In sc2 if you send like 15 lings vs 15 marines you lose like 3 marines and all of the lings. But in this version zerglings are extremely formidable. The same goes for gateway units.
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It's pretty hard to find people to play with T.T
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Looks great, will try it asap.
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EPT
