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On January 12 2014 16:24 big_aug wrote:
There is no ladder, ranking, or matching, right? It won't get serious, steady play until something like that is possible. It would be interesting if that happened.
Yeah, something like this is really important to get a lot of people to play it.
Jinro made a good proposal with that browser based challenge system. I think something like this could work although it's far from being as convenient as clicking the "find match" button in SC2.
I really wanna say thanks to Total Biscuit for promoting this Mod. In my opinion his popularity in the gaming community could only help this project!
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On January 12 2014 20:22 FrozenProbe wrote:
Is there smart casting? I feel like it's pretty bad in every situation.. selecting one templar and storm feels more and more satisfying than press 3 (t+click)*x
Yes smartcast is there as I believe it makes it easier for newer players/those who are familiar w/ Sc2 only.
Psy Storm though is definitely problematic due to smartcasting and was therefore nerfed in Sc2. In Sbow, the DPS is roughly the same as in Sc2, but it has the same total damage (over 6 seconds instead of 4) as in BW. This means it is much better vs Mech for instance than in Sc2 (since mech will almost always take full damage over those 6 seconds).
The DPS nerf should also make it a bit easier for bio to be playable in Sbow (unlike in BW).
I read a lot of comments that say bio is very bad here, but I don't think that's entirely the case. While it works differently from in Sc2, it can still be pretty good due the Ghost's shock-spell and the Maurauder. Dropships have speed boost and abusing immobility of the protoss army is still possible due to the much weaker defensive warpgates.
If opponent goes for heavy Zealot composition, you can add in Firebats, which are more tanky than in BW (though weak vs Dragoons, but vs Dragoons Marines and Mauruaders fare well).
I would like to see more players trying out bio and seeing how the Ghost spell feels.
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Just tried my first few games last night, it definitely feels fresh and fun 
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hope people will still like it after the novelty and fresh feeling
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Saw the TvP between Crank and MMA, looked great
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Really hope this gets the attention it deserves, might come back to playing some sc2 if it does ^.^
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I really like unit beeing more spread, it feels like moving an army, not a sc2 ball of shit
Also there´s more space to multitask, i think
i´ll be playing this mod for sure
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So I just played a game against the AI and it just felt so fresh. The altered economy is just great and promotes expanding.
Now we only need the superiour BW sound effects ingame 
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I sooooo wish the guys who did this could make some wc3 transitionned on sc2 :p
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
Looks cool gonna try this out how active is it on eu?
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There were about 30 people in the Starbow channel last night, probably about 60 people watching the stream.
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There are a lot of issues it will be almost impossible to recreate. For example better pathfinding makes melee units much better, overkill makes ranged units worse. Lurkers will be quite imba because of pathfinding and clumping up, though the latter can be fixed by collision radius. Recreating scarab shots will be pretty hard. Muta stacking? Smart casting? The thing is BW balance is largely dependent on those engine issues, and if you cant recreate those you WILL have to tweak balance, and people will get unhappy about it. And I don't understand why do you bring SC2 units into it... It looks like you haven't decided yet of what you want to do: recreate sc1 or make sc2 better. For example the height advantage. 50% miss chance is recreating sc1. If you want to make sc2 better (adding more of defenders advantage) you should just halve that damage.
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On January 12 2014 22:56 Cheerio wrote:
There are a lot of issues it will be almost impossible to recreate. For example better pathfinding makes melee units much better, overkill makes ranged units worse. Lurkers will be quite imba because of pathfinding and clumping up, though the latter can be fixed by collision radius. Recreating scarab shots will be pretty hard. Muta stacking? Smart casting? The thing is BW balance is largely dependent on those engine issues, and if you cant recreate those you WILL have to tweak balance, and people will get unhappy about it. And I don't understand why do you bring SC2 untis into it... It looks like you haven't decided yet of what you want to do: recreate sc1 or make sc2 better. For example the height advantage. 50% miss chance is recreating sc1. If you want to make sc2 better (adding more of defenders advantage) you should just halve that damage.
Starbow is not a scbw remake.
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On January 12 2014 23:08 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 22:56 Cheerio wrote:
There are a lot of issues it will be almost impossible to recreate. For example better pathfinding makes melee units much better, overkill makes ranged units worse. Lurkers will be quite imba because of pathfinding and clumping up, though the latter can be fixed by collision radius. Recreating scarab shots will be pretty hard. Muta stacking? Smart casting? The thing is BW balance is largely dependent on those engine issues, and if you cant recreate those you WILL have to tweak balance, and people will get unhappy about it. And I don't understand why do you bring SC2 untis into it... It looks like you haven't decided yet of what you want to do: recreate sc1 or make sc2 better. For example the height advantage. 50% miss chance is recreating sc1. If you want to make sc2 better (adding more of defenders advantage) you should just halve that damage. Starbow is not a scbw remake.
then it should stop porting outdated sc1 features.
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There are a lot of issues it will be almost impossible to recreate. For example better pathfinding makes melee units much better, overkill makes ranged units worse. Lurkers will be quite imba because of pathfinding and clumping up, though the latter can be fixed by collision radius. Recreating scarab shots will be pretty hard. Muta stacking? Smart casting? The thing is BW balance is largely dependent on those engine issues, and if you cant recreate those you WILL have to tweak balance, and people will get unhappy about it. And I don't understand why do you bring SC2 untis into it...
There are always difficulties in recreating BW balance, but here are some examples of what Starbow has attempted to balance the game:
- Marine's are much more agile (as in Sc2) unlike BW Marines --> This makes it more micro rewarding against meele units
- Marine Stim boost has been nerfed has been nerfed from 100% (in BW) boost to 50%. HP has been increased from 40 to 45. The combination of these 3 changes overall make the Marine less powerfull if a-moved, but if micro'ed well it will be extremely strong and battles should last longer.
- Speedling DPS nerfed by 12% (from BW) --> It kinda benefits from Sc2 mechanics as you point out, thus a DPS nerf makes sense.
- Lurkers are armoed but has 15 HP more. This means they die faster to Dragoons and Maurauders, but a bit better vs Marines. Lurkers has been one of the most tested units in mod, and based on my experience this doesn't feel imbalanced at all.
- In SBOW Mutas stack up as in BW and can make a gliding shot. That recreates the strenght of Mutalisks from BW. Unlimited unit selection is actually much less of an issue w/ Mutalisk than you make think. Terran has Irradiate which absolutely rapes a zerg player that has overinvested into Mutalisks. Protoss does better vs Mutalisk anyway due to the addiiton of the Stalker.
- Smartcasting: The main issue here is related to Psy Storm - at least that's the ability that benefits the most from being able to cast several storms in a short period of time. Therefore, the DPS has been reduced by making it deal damage over 6 seconds instead of 4 seconds. Total damage has been maintaned though.
Dropships have speed boost and abusing immobility of the protoss army is still possible due to the much weaker defensive warpgates.
It is intended that we buffed terrans harasss options as we belive it makes for more actionpacked games. Protoss gets rewarded w/ warp gate mechanics and Blink Stalkers. Warp tech is intended to be weak defensively (so it doens't shut down harass), but very strong offensively. It is definitely a super powerfull ability - Watch Romson's game for referrence.
Will this create imbalances? Definitely a possibility and we will have to adjust it then.
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@thezansuric
50% less damage shooting up is also not ideal. The armor system calculates it in a way so that armor is more punishing to faster firing units when damage has been reduced.
@Legatus
That idea has been brought up.
It doesn't exactly help 4 marines and a tank try to stay alive on top of a cliff vs dragoons trying to bust their way up.
@Levistus
They do not. The targetted unit is highlighted however. If you have enough reaction time you can minimize the damage.
@Cheerio
The mod is built on BW fundamentals.
If something is outdated and doesn't quite work in the sc2 engine it is usually not ported.
Imagine it being built from BW into what it is now instead of from SC2 to Starbow.
It is not trying to clone BW, just expand on some of its design fundamentals and hopefully bring some new fresh meta experience to the sc2 engine.
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This is really really cool. Blizzard should just hire them and rename it to Legacy of the Void.
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On January 12 2014 23:13 nigsky wrote:
This is really really cool. Blizzard should just hire them and rename it to Legacy of the Void.
Far different games!
We'll just have to see what LotV evolves SC2 in. SBOW plays much differently than sc2.
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I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite.
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On January 12 2014 23:10 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:08 TaShadan wrote:On January 12 2014 22:56 Cheerio wrote:
There are a lot of issues it will be almost impossible to recreate. For example better pathfinding makes melee units much better, overkill makes ranged units worse. Lurkers will be quite imba because of pathfinding and clumping up, though the latter can be fixed by collision radius. Recreating scarab shots will be pretty hard. Muta stacking? Smart casting? The thing is BW balance is largely dependent on those engine issues, and if you cant recreate those you WILL have to tweak balance, and people will get unhappy about it. And I don't understand why do you bring SC2 untis into it... It looks like you haven't decided yet of what you want to do: recreate sc1 or make sc2 better. For example the height advantage. 50% miss chance is recreating sc1. If you want to make sc2 better (adding more of defenders advantage) you should just halve that damage. Starbow is not a scbw remake. then it should stop porting outdated sc1 features.
outdated? for example? most bw features are way superior to any other rts (yes there are some "outdated" too).
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EPT
