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On January 12 2014 23:10 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:08 TaShadan wrote:On January 12 2014 22:56 Cheerio wrote:
There are a lot of issues it will be almost impossible to recreate. For example better pathfinding makes melee units much better, overkill makes ranged units worse. Lurkers will be quite imba because of pathfinding and clumping up, though the latter can be fixed by collision radius. Recreating scarab shots will be pretty hard. Muta stacking? Smart casting? The thing is BW balance is largely dependent on those engine issues, and if you cant recreate those you WILL have to tweak balance, and people will get unhappy about it. And I don't understand why do you bring SC2 untis into it... It looks like you haven't decided yet of what you want to do: recreate sc1 or make sc2 better. For example the height advantage. 50% miss chance is recreating sc1. If you want to make sc2 better (adding more of defenders advantage) you should just halve that damage. Starbow is not a scbw remake. then it should stop porting outdated sc1 features.
What of it is outdated?
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On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite.
I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay.
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On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay.
They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information.
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On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information.
Seems like an interesting idea.
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In SBOW Mutas stack up as in BW and can make a gliding shot. That recreates the strenght of Mutalisks from BW
Just to clarify upon this.
The mutas not 100% bw micro, its worse.
Whenever they kill a unit, they have to deadstop for x time. (Sc2 engine fault)
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On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay.
Yeah i can see that it adds some apm sink, but vision is the wrong way to go here i feel. I don't know what you could replace it with either though :/
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On January 12 2014 23:15 decemberscalm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:13 nigsky wrote:
This is really really cool. Blizzard should just hire them and rename it to Legacy of the Void. Far different games! We'll just have to see what LotV evolves SC2 in. SBOW plays much differently than sc2.
Maybe lotv will introduce some units worthwhile importing 
Probably not though 
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what is the difference between stalker and dragoon roles and viper vs defiler roles? What is the role of the scout?
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On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information.
Then people will just use more tumors and creep a little bit slower in one direction, i don't think that fixes the "vision problem" , just makes it a little bit harder
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On January 12 2014 23:26 Cheerio wrote:
what is the difference between stalker and dragoon roles and viper vs defilers roles? What is the role of the scout?
Stalker's role:
1) Can be used a Reaper/Vulture harass/scout unit as it has high-ground vision and starts with blink and has extra damage vs light.
2) Pretty good against Mutalisks. Its efficency vs Lings/Marines is yet to be fully explored though, but overall if you play a PvZ and opponent goes ling/Mutalisks, mixing in Stalkers is almost always a great idea. This gives the protoss an alternative to going stargate every PvZ.
3) It can probably be used to abuse immobilty of mech, and it can blink on top of Siege Tanks. Again, this possiblity hasn't fully been explored yet. It is, however important to note that just making a big "group blink" on one location w/ Stalkers on top of Siege Tanks isn't effective. Instead, it is optimal to "individualize" the blinks, so each Stalker blinks on top of different Siege tanks in order to optimize friendly fire splash damage. Doing this optimally though, is incredibly challenging.
Dragoon:
- Good vs Lurkers, Ultralisks, Siege Tanks (needs Zealots as buffer here though).
The Dragoon is like 70% Sc2 Stalker (without blink) and 30% Sc2-Immortal.
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On January 12 2014 23:26 Cheerio wrote:
what is the difference between stalker and dragoon roles and viper vs defiler roles? What is the role of the scout?
Dragoon fulfills Immortal role vs heavy armored, even against air. Scout fulfills Void Ray role vs heavy armored air.
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Starbow looks like a mod that I would enjoy very much.
The gameplay of SC2 has become so stale for me right now that I need something else to keep me coming back to SC2.
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On January 12 2014 23:26 Cheerio wrote:
what is the difference between stalker and dragoon roles and viper vs defiler roles? What is the role of the scout?
Stalkers are mobile and fragile; much worse in direct engagements, but great for backstabs and catching units out of position.
Dragoons hit harder, have more HP and is probably the most well rounded unit in the game. Great for big battles, but are quite expensive for what they do.
Vipers are mobile and agressive support units that focusses on disabling enemy units. Defilers are more sneaky and fragile, but provide some of the best combat support in the game with plague and dark swarm.
Basically Vipers are more safe and easier to get, but Defilers are powerhouses when used right.
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Regarding my experiences for Viper and Defiler: I prefer to go for a lair-heavy very mobile style whenever I play zerg. W/ this style I feel Viper functions better - at least I think its more fun.
Vs Siege Tanks, it has a weaker version of Abduct, and thus it is usefull vs both bio and mech.
Eventually though, you probably need Dark Swarm if you face a mech'ing terran w/ a maxed out Siege army and lots of turrets.
Vs mech in midgame, I can also recommend you try out Roaches (mixed w/ Hydras). That style is pretty mobile and beefy.
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On January 12 2014 23:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information. Then people will just use more tumors and creep a little bit slower in one direction, i don't think that fixes the "vision problem" , just makes it a little bit harder
The other alternative is you make them like sensor towers, so you only know that there are unit there, not what they are.
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There was a joke in BW that went something like "Dark Swarm, so imba it almost makes ZvT balanced". I definitely see good Defiler usage being mandatory once the game becomes more explored and terrans are better.
Question about the Scout, what is the idea behind including this unit? It appears to be rather superfluous, and was never used in BW except as a BM move. Perhaps replace it with something more interesting(just not a void ray, please no void rays)?
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On January 13 2014 00:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information. Then people will just use more tumors and creep a little bit slower in one direction, i don't think that fixes the "vision problem" , just makes it a little bit harder The other alternative is you make them like sensor towers, so you only know that there are unit there, not what they are.
Great idea. Makes sense thematically too. Units are walking on top of creep, they sense a unit is there, but don't see.
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On January 12 2014 23:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information. Then people will just use more tumors and creep a little bit slower in one direction, i don't think that fixes the "vision problem" , just makes it a little bit harder
Why is that bad though? I think the issue w/ vision is when it covers 50%+ of the map and the opponent can't move out without the opponent noticing --> this allows the zerg to always be ready for surprise attacks. For instance, I found Vulture harass late game vs a zerg that spreads creep to be almost impossible.
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On January 13 2014 00:16 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 23:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 12 2014 23:24 Plansix wrote:On January 12 2014 23:23 Hider wrote:On January 12 2014 23:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I feel creep spread shouldn't be in the game, there is no speed benefit to it and the free vision is kinda meh aswell.
I mean you have decided not to use xel naga towers, cause you want the players to scout with actual units, creep does exactly the opposite. I think most players enjoy the possiblity to spread creep (as it rewards mechanics), but I agree w/ the vision-advantage. Not a big fan of that either, but its a bit difficult to see what other benefit it should give. For instance, a straight up damage/armor buff is likely to have unintended consequences for gameplay. They just need to make the vision around the tumors really tiny. Then it only gives partial information, as opposed to all information. Then people will just use more tumors and creep a little bit slower in one direction, i don't think that fixes the "vision problem" , just makes it a little bit harder Why is that bad though? I think the issue w/ vision is when it covers 50%+ of the map and the opponent can't move out without the opponent noticing --> this allows the zerg to always be ready for surprise attacks. For instance, I found Vulture harass late game vs a zerg that spreads creep to be almost impossible.
I think it is not enough, i would like to remove all sort of vision for creep, but there has to be some sort of advantage of course if you wanna keep the apm sink.
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Some of those games are quite interesting. The only thing I saw that I thought needed a definite fix was the amount of time it takes for a spider mine to trigger. Seems much longer than it should be. Dark swarm's visibility was also pretty crap on that desert terrain.
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EPT
