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On August 20 2014 06:24 Foxxan wrote:
BCs have 100more hp to.
I dont see the need in sharing upgrades at all. If you wanna go air then you go air upgrades.
In tvz, zerg has seperate upgrades and if terran doesnt than its an unfair advantage for terran which is bad design.
Its a good thing these are gone all together.
There are many things to make mech more offensive.
Well then you will have to balance Banshee/Viking around latergame utility in a different way. You argue that if you want air-upgrades, then you get that, however, what if you almost never wanna get it becasue mech units are superior in almost every situation in the mid/late game?
Now if Banshee's/vikings already were used a lot later game and seemed dominant, the change made sense. However, from my experience, the balance looked like this:
- Banshee + Viking = Better early game than late game.
- BC = OP late game
- Shared ups = Makes BC's, banshee's and VIkings better late game
Why not just nerf the BC instead? Or if there some type of bias against shared ups, then work on adding late-game utility to the air units in different ways?
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On August 20 2014 06:24 Foxxan wrote:
I dont see the need in sharing upgrades at all. If you wanna go air then you go air upgrades.
In tvz, zerg has seperate upgrades and if terran doesnt than its an unfair advantage for terran which is bad design.
It's because you transition to air so late, so you start out with 0-0 upgrades like 15 minutes into the game. If some of the upgrades are shared then the discrepancy is less severe.
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Regarding KotH, I didn't think it was the mech playstyle at all that made it super boring to watch. It was the almost guaranteed success of reapers that set much up so perfectly that any aggression at all was incredibly blunted all game long. What could zerg really do after being set so far behind that early on?
We did a whole lot of reaper opener tests and even trying various things to hard counter Z but the entire story was that it gave a pretty big advantage to T and wasn't fun to play and defend against as Z. The relationships that make the reaper more healthy in HotS simply aren't there in SBOW, hence the latest change to the unit.
With a healthier reaper and openning phase of ZvT I can easily see Z having so much more options to proke and prod and create a more interesting Z vs Turtle Mech experience. And we definently saw that in the latest ladder cup.
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Artosis casts Starbow !! ... 3, or even 4, of the 5 games he casts were literally the worst games of starbow I have ever seen (haven't been watching that long though. Personally I thought it was a little funny, just so surreal, and he said he'll cast more - so no biggy. But I'm a bit sad that this might be some peoples first contact with Starbow...
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On August 20 2014 06:12 Hider wrote:
When Devourers were nerfed,
"When Devours were fixed"
Yes it was a huge nerf, but we simply had the wrong attack speed value added in the first place. There was no intention at the time that SB Devours attack 3 times faster than BW Devuors, it was simply a mistake in the first place that we fixed.
The upgrades between mech ground and air are now separated. BC are +100 hp and I am actually not sure why Kabel did this, This is an older change and we should try to understand why this is before potentially change it back to 500. Now I am pretty sure it got 600 hp before the warp drive, so maybe it should cut back on hp since they are more "mobile".
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On August 20 2014 14:06 Xiphias wrote:"When Devours were fixed" Yes it was a huge nerf, but we simply had the wrong attack speed value added in the first place. There was no intention at the time that SB Devours attack 3 times faster than BW Devuors, it was simply a mistake in the first place that we fixed. The upgrades between mech ground and air are now separated. BC are +100 hp and I am actually not sure why Kabel did this, This is an older change and we should try to understand why this is before potentially change it back to 500. Now I am pretty sure it got 600 hp before the warp drive, so maybe it should cut back on hp since they are more "mobile".
At one time it had both. They are not in hand.
This blink btw on bcs will ruin how to fight them. When enemy attacks with a good flank. Set its position up.
Bcs will blink away from danger and from the positional attack.
On liquipedia it says, BCs are very very strong against zerg. Problem is getting there.
With overcharge=Its easier getting there.
I dont get any of the +100 hp and blink. Especially not blink.
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On August 20 2014 14:06 Xiphias wrote:"When Devours were fixed" Yes it was a huge nerf, but we simply had the wrong attack speed value added in the first place. There was no intention at the time that SB Devours attack 3 times faster than BW Devuors, it was simply a mistake in the first place that we fixed. The upgrades between mech ground and air are now separated. BC are +100 hp and I am actually not sure why Kabel did this, This is an older change and we should try to understand why this is before potentially change it back to 500. Now I am pretty sure it got 600 hp before the warp drive, so maybe it should cut back on hp since they are more "mobile".
I feel it's so hard to get an answer here. So let me try again: Why wasn't BC's nerfed instead of shared air/mech upgrades?
What's the advantage of that approach and do you have an altenrative plan at making later game Banshee/viking more useful in all 3 matchups or do you believe they are in a fine state later game?
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I can only speak for myself here, but I think the main argument to split the upgrades was that terran air was so strong in TvT and the shared upgrades made the transition even easier. I think we were right as we saw a lot of terran air in the ladder cup in TvT even after this nerf.
It was not because BC's were OP in TvZ, hence no compensation.
On the other hand, I personally did not know of the +100 hp until recently, so we may have a second look at that, especialyl since they now also have warp drive.
Many of these differences between Sbow and BW were added a long time ago by Kabel (like the +100 hp) with little discussion surrounding the changes and then were later buffed with other abilities without remembering the old buffs. This is one of those cases.
Hope that answers your question.
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was that terran air was so strong in TvT and the shared upgrades made the transition even easier. I think we were right as we saw a lot of terran air in the ladder cup in TvT even after this nerf.
Wasn't it just Vikings that were OP in TvT, and as a consequence you nerfed the Viking (?
I don't think ppl pre-patch went around and massed Banshee's in TvT late game.
Making two gigant nerfs in one patch seems pretty excessive. Giving how few tvt's in generally are played, it surprises me you wouldn't wanna take a slow approach to balance TvT and see how the meta will deveelop.
I think we were right as we saw a lot of terran air in the ladder cup in TvT even after this nerf.
I believe Dirtybag took way too much damage from Banshee's because because he made useless Vultures instead of Goliaths in the mid- and latergame despite having excessive gas. That's why I believe it's only a temporary metagame-issue becasue against good players who take relatively little damage from Vultures, Goliaths are heavily superior in almost every single way. Thus, terran players will adjust their compositions and be able to deal alot better with Banshee's.
Regardless, whether I am right or wrong here, this would seem to be a situation where you would opt to nerf the Viking slightly and then reevaluate and see how the meta played out.
Franscar indicated in Twtich chat that it was nerfed because mech-into-air was too strong in TvZ and referrenced Beastyqts games, but that doens't answer why BC's alone wasn't nerfed. As a start, the +100 HP could have been removed, and maybe the follow-up nerf could be even be harder to take into account shared ups/blink.
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Nerfing the invidiual units invites less options overall. If the BC is only usable because of its benefits from mech upgrades then that isn't interesting. It's more fun if air units are strong by their own merit as it encourages more strategies; fast air-based builds, air transitions from bio/science vessel style.
Removing the shared upgrades did it perfectly; nerfs the boring turtle mech-into-air style, doesn't hurt air units in other scenarios where they aren't fully upgraded.
Besides, the tournament was post-patch and I saw plenty of air use; proxy Banshees, TvT air transistions, Vikings vs Muta and lategame Banshee harass vs Zerg. Not sure what the problem is.
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On August 20 2014 21:09 Espers wrote:
Nerfing the invidiual units invites less options overall. If the BC is only usable because of its benefits from mech upgrades then that isn't interesting.
Removing the shared upgrades did it perfectly; nerfs the boring turtle mech-into-air style, doesn't hurt air units in other scenarios where they aren't fully upgraded.
B.
Actually it's closer to the opposite. By having shared upgrades you can nerf the DPS/armor/HP of the BC so it once fully upgraded is slightly worse.
Throughout the majority of the game, the effect will be the same for the two solutions, however very late late game BC's will still be this super deadly upgame with +100 HP, blink and 3/3 in Starbow. So in theory terran players can continue to uber turtle and get those imba bc's are out, but it just takes longer time.
It's more fun if air units are strong by their own merit as it encourages more strategies; fast air-based builds, air transitions from bio/science vessel style.
It's true that you can better make bio/starport units mix in by balancing air play without shared ups, however we are not seeing any banshee/bio play today and the dev-team didn't compensate banshee's in any single way (and I am assuming you don't care about watcihng BC's + bio becasue the former is simply a super boring unit).
My criticism here isn' that the shared upgrades were removed in it self, but rather that the dev-team seems to have no opinion on the vision for banshee/vikings in the later stages of the game, or at least no strategy on how to get to the desired stage.
Besides, the tournament was post-patch and I saw plenty of air use; proxy Banshees, TvT air transistions, Vikings vs Muta and lategame Banshee harass vs Zerg. Not sure what the problem is.
I think you should reread my post in order to understand what the problem is, because I clearly made a difference between earlier game play which comes vs Mutalisks for instance (where upgrades doesn't matter) and later game play (where upgrades matters).
Banshee + Vikings = Good earlier game. But why would you ever get 0/0 vikings/Banshee's later game when you inster can opt for 2/2+ goliaths/tanks/sv's, which functions as a dominant alternative
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Can't we use the old staple of increasing gas cost for certain units that are supposed to be powerful but limited in appearances? (Like the BC?)
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I think you just see this in a completely different light... conjecture such as saying vikings/banshees are useless vs 2-2 mech doesn't hold any weight to me.
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On August 20 2014 21:23 Espers wrote:
I think you just see this in a completely different light...
Well given your post, the different light must be that I would like to see Banshee's/Vikings in the later game and not just be for early game utility.
conjecture such as saying vikings/banshees are useless vs 2-2 mech doesn't hold any weight to me.
Just watch the Franscar game vs Beastyqt. Beastyqt didn't opt for Vikings/banshees later game as heavily ugpraded SV's/Goliaths are simply superior. And you can watch a ton more games - It's so rarely (besides TvT) we see banshee's and Vikings later game. And as previously argued, in TvT - I believe it's just a temporary metagame thing.
Regardless, my point isn't that there has to be shared ups in Starbow, because later game diveristy can be rewarded in a different (and perhaps better) way. Bur rather, that I don't see any analysis from the dev-team on the subject, vision or potential plan to get to the desired stage. Just some comments on how they see air-play in the various matchups, earlier and later game, and how the shared ups affects the balance/diversity, would be fine for me.
It's possible that they are satifised with Vikings just being an anti Banshee/anti-Mutalisk in early midgame and Banshee having a bit of utility in in TvT and early game vs Zerg.
If that was the case and they no had wishes for more usage of them, it would simply comes down to a diference of opinions, and thus the patch made sense.
But personally, I would have preferred to see Banshee's having utility all game long in all 3 matchups, adn compositions like Viking/banshee/Vulture/mech play vs Zerg and protoss, because I think these two units add some really cool dynamic, harassplay and microability to mech-play.
Mech-play can be pretty stale once its very tank-heavy and thus rewarding more air-based play would be really cool in my opinion (again: I am not implying that shared upgrades is the best solution here).
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I can't really see a future for late-game banshee use vs zerg, because cloaking as escape capability becomes less powerful later on. Scourge are fun units, but one of the problems is that you have to give every air unit a specific way to deal with them. I don't think cloaking suffices.
If you compare them to dark templar, the latter is much more powerful when you get them in position and can therefore more easily be cost effective. They're also immune to spore crawlers or missile turrets shooting them down (one reason you never see dark templar late-game vs protoss, as cannons easily shut them down). The banshee needs to be in higher numbers and they become too much of a liability.
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On August 20 2014 22:42 Grumbels wrote:
I can't really see a future for late-game banshee use vs zerg, because cloaking as escape capability becomes less powerful later on. Scourge are fun units, but one of the problems is that you have to give every air unit a specific way to deal with them. I don't think cloaking suffices.
If you compare them to dark templar, the latter is much more powerful when you get them in position and can therefore more easily be cost effective. They're also immune to spore crawlers or missile turrets shooting them down (one reason you never see dark templar late-game vs protoss, as cannons easily shut them down). The banshee needs to be in higher numbers and they become too much of a liability.
I agree with your analysis, but not neccearily with your conclusion. The downside with the current cloak is that it cannot escape from Scourges/Mutalisks. Thus, as a consequence I previously suggested to make it benefit from Viking speed-upgrade so it has the same speed as Mutalisks/Scourges when upgarded (just like Wraiths did).
It's likely that the combo of faster speed and with shared upgrades as well in TvT. So if the argument that was used to removed shared ups was that it was an inefficient way of adding lategame viability to the Banshee, and an alternative approach (such as shared speed upgrade) had been implemented, it would have made a lot of sense IMO.
That said, faster speed (but not shared ups) still leaves it kinda bad'ish in TvP, so coming up with a comprehensive solution here isn't easy.
Another issue with later-game Banshee's along with mech is that the terran player is often times gas constrained (unless he is massing vults). The synergy between mass Vults and Banshee's aren't really very that good, and since Vults are kinda bad vs zerg as a harass-unit, it would IMO have made more sense to try and make a Banshee/Viking/Tank composition viabile in TvZ. I believe it could be accomplished by adding the speed-upgrade and changing its cost to 200/50 (or something like that).
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/start random rant
Hey guys, new to SBow and wanted to say that I really like the idea and intent. I would love to see it split off from SC2 eventually as I think you could gain a bit more of a player base as the barrier to entry is a little high at the moment. And because, come on, it is deserving of it. I don't even know if this would be a thing that could happen, but I am sure eventually it could work.
I will have to play more to get a better feel for the game, and I would love to see some more casual things to be added to it (AI, 2v2+, etc). I have been trying to think of a few ways to grow the player base (but haven't gotten far).
I would like to play more, but not play against people as I would like to just try things out without hindering anyone. AI seems to be broken (aka stuck on very easy/easy for me) (I think this is just my install of SC2 WoL + somehow having starter of HotS as well).
Idk I just wanted to ramble and let you know that I like it and will try to get some more people to play. Are there ways to play 2v2s? I should look into it more, but that will be sometime in September I think.
/end random rant
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On August 21 2014 02:19 theNox wrote:
/start random rant
Hey guys, new to SBow and wanted to say that I really like the idea and intent. I would love to see it split off from SC2 eventually as I think you could gain a bit more of a player base as the barrier to entry is a little high at the moment. And because, come on, it is deserving of it. I don't even know if this would be a thing that could happen, but I am sure eventually it could work.
I will have to play more to get a better feel for the game, and I would love to see some more casual things to be added to it (AI, 2v2+, etc). I have been trying to think of a few ways to grow the player base (but haven't gotten far).
I would like to play more, but not play against people as I would like to just try things out without hindering anyone. AI seems to be broken (aka stuck on very easy/easy for me) (I think this is just my install of SC2 WoL + somehow having starter of HotS as well).
Idk I just wanted to ramble and let you know that I like it and will try to get some more people to play. Are there ways to play 2v2s? I should look into it more, but that will be sometime in September I think.
/end random rant
SoaH spoke of making a better Starbow AI, but it will take some time I think. It is highly needed. We are also working on getting 2v2 ladder going for the next iteration of the ladder client if possible. Not promising anything but we are looking into it.
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SoaH spoke of making a better Starbow AI, but it will take some time I think. It is highly needed. We are also working on getting 2v2 ladder going for the next iteration of the ladder client if possible. Not promising anything but we are looking into it.
I wonder what it would take for me to learn AI scripting in SC2.... *goes off into thoughtful thoughts*
Are there any unranked matches? Or is that just creating a normal arcade game outside of the ladder client?
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On August 21 2014 02:40 theNox wrote:Show nested quote +SoaH spoke of making a better Starbow AI, but it will take some time I think. It is highly needed. We are also working on getting 2v2 ladder going for the next iteration of the ladder client if possible. Not promising anything but we are looking into it. I wonder what it would take for me to learn AI scripting in SC2.... *goes off into thoughtful thoughts* Are there any unranked matches? Or is that just creating a normal arcade game outside of the ladder client?
SoaH also works on making unranked matches for the eros webclient.
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EPT
