EPTI tried to have a look at it myself, but I'm not so good at follow-through.
That is to say, I tried halfheartedly to learn how it works and didn't get anywhere within the first hour or so and then I gave up.Starbow - Page 317
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
I tried to have a look at it myself, but I'm not so good at follow-through. That is to say, I tried halfheartedly to learn how it works and didn't get anywhere within the first hour or so and then I gave up. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On August 21 2014 02:40 theNox wrote: I wonder what it would take for me to learn AI scripting in SC2.... *goes off into thoughtful thoughts* Are there any unranked matches? Or is that just creating a normal arcade game outside of the ladder client? 1) If you want to have a shot at a Starbow AI, then we would welcome that a lot! SoaH won't be able to start with that in a while anywas. Making an AI would have to be purely done via triggers in the editor itself as the editor does not allow import of external scripts as far as I am aware. 2) Yes, "unranked" is pretty much asking someone for game. Helps to hang out in the ladder chat in the ladder client regardless as many players there plays casual games as well if people ask. | ||
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theNox
United States9 Posts
SoaH also works on making unranked matches for the eros webclient. Sounds good. I am looking forward to more time to play it soon. How active is the development still? | ||
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theNox
United States9 Posts
There is virtually no AI development scene for SC2, so I think it's likely the ability to create an AI is a bit limited / complicated. I tried to have a look at it myself, but I'm not so good at follow-through. That is to say, I tried halfheartedly to learn how it works and didn't get anywhere within the first hour or so and then I gave up. I just looked at it for about 15 minutes while at work. It seems interesting and there are some things I don't quite get at the moment. Doesn't mean I can't learn it though. I doubt the AI I would develop would be amazing at all though. 1) If you want to have a shot at a Starbow AI, then we would welcome that a lot! SoaH won't be able to start with that in a while anywas. Making an AI would have to be purely done via triggers in the editor itself as the editor does not allow import of external scripts as far as I am aware. 2) Yes, "unranked" is pretty much asking someone for game. Helps to hang out in the ladder chat in the ladder client regardless as many players there plays casual games as well if people ask. 1) Well when I said scripting, I meant just working on it. I think of AI coding/work as scripting (because that is what you are doing basically). 2) I might have to hang out some just to chat then in the coming days, I don't really have time to play. Or something. BW in my opinion was SOO much better than SC2 and I feel like you have captured a lot of what makes it nicer while still maintaining some of the new units. | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow Read more here: http://starbowmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=569 Edit: It's over already, I had to suddenly go, but I got Dragonei Vs Nap casted. | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
Something has always felt a bit off about the Starbow mutalisk (and your other air units). I've discussed and tried to get to the bottom of this issue a couple of times with your master magician decemberscalm. But we couldn't quite figure out what it was, and you starbros don't seem to notice it enough to complain about it. After some testing I have come to the conclusion that Starbow's mutalisks behave inconsistently when issued an attack order from outside their attack range. My point of comparison has always been the SC2BW muta which, in contrast, sort of elastically flings in at full speed towards its target and maintains a nice glide whether you issue the attack command within or outside the mutalisks' attack range. In Starbow and in SC2, however, the mutas slow down and stop when approaching a target from far away. Today I just copied a bunch of SC2BW values to the Starbow muta and figured out what's bugging me: 1) Separation radius still matters 0.1 separation radius is what's causing the mutas to stop when approaching to fire at a target. My explanation for why this only happens during out-of-range-approach: Since the mutas aren't perfectly bunched together, the first mutas in the cluster arrive in range to fire sooner and thus start slowing down sooner than the mutas in the back of the cluster. What ends up happening is that all mutas ram into eachothers' asses when approaching a target from outside their allowed attack range. I think this is part of the reason why you had to increase muta range to 3.5. Because moving shot in Starbow only works reliably when issued inside the air units' attack range. 2) Acceleration/Deceleration I know you guys want the mutalisks and other air units to decelerate slower so it gets more "hang time" or "glide time" when slowing down. What infuriates me with Deceleration in Starcraft2, however, is that in my opinion the variable is bugged. It doesn't do what it is supposed to do. This is how I would expect a variable like Deceleration to work: 1) Your units moves at a speed of 4 2) You set deceleration to 1.5 3) Your unit has a deceleration of 1.5 per second or whatever applied to it from its current speed. How deceleration in SC2 actually works: 1) Your units move at a speed of 4 2) You set deceleration to 1.5 3) If you move-click anywhere in a 4-ish 5-ish range radius around your units they will immediately slow down to a speed of 1.5 (in other words: 4 --> 1.5 in an instant), and then proceed to decelerate at a rate of 1.5 from a speed of 1.5. What does this mean? In Starbow you can never move-click in close proximity to your air units without also (as a side effect) immediately slowing their speed to the deceleration value. Anyone who wants to test this can set a deceleration value of 0.1 on a unit and compare what happens when issuing move commands far away versus issuing move commands in close proximity. Deceleration needs to be equal to Acceleration in SC2 (or just set to 0). It's too fucking bugged to be set in any other way. 3) Decrease Arc Slop (Mutalisk Glave Wurm) Your Arc Slop for the mutalisk is currently set very generously to 45 degrees. This makes it increasingly likely for single mutalisks in a cluster to veer off and approach different targets (the cluster splits up). It's not the biggest deal, just something that annoys me, because I rather they stick together than start sprinting off targetting 3 different targets because their angle is so generous. So to conclude my mutalisk preferences: Attack range 3 (not really important, you can keep it at 3.5) Arc slop 10-15 degrees Deceleration = Acceleration Separation Radius = 0.001 (will otherwise be guaranteed to fuck up attack-orderded approaches from outside of range). | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
I'm sure dec will adapt whatever would fit well in Starbow. Also, here is a game to show how Bio TvP may pan out: http://www.twitch.tv/sc2_starbow/c/4971417 | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On August 24 2014 02:03 LaLuSh wrote: 2) Acceleration/Deceleration I know you guys want the mutalisks and other air units to decelerate slower so it gets more "hang time" or "glide time" when slowing down. What infuriates me with Deceleration in Starcraft2, however, is that in my opinion the variable is bugged. It doesn't do what it is supposed to do. This is how I would expect a variable like Deceleration to work: 1) Your units moves at a speed of 4 2) You set deceleration to 1.5 3) Your unit has a deceleration of 1.5 per second or whatever applied to it from its current speed. How deceleration in SC2 actually works: 1) Your units move at a speed of 4 2) You set deceleration to 1.5 3) If you move-click anywhere in a 4-ish 5-ish range radius around your units they will immediately slow down to a speed of 1.5 (in other words: 4 --> 1.5 in an instant), and then proceed to decelerate at a rate of 1.5 from a speed of 1.5. What does this mean? In Starbow you can never move-click in close proximity to your air units without also (as a side effect) immediately slowing their speed to the deceleration value. Anyone who wants to test this can set a deceleration value of 0.1 on a unit and compare what happens when issuing move commands far away versus issuing move commands in close proximity. Deceleration needs to be equal to Acceleration in SC2 (or just set to 0). It's too fucking bugged to be set in any other way. What happens if you set deceleration to a much higher value? Does the unit actually speed up? It's a bit annoying to learn about a bug like this since it explains some of the confusion I felt trying to tweak unit stats for various personal tests. So the only non-bugged value for deceleration is if you set it at the same speed as the acceleration? | ||
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tehredbanditt
103 Posts
On August 24 2014 02:03 LaLuSh wrote: Hello my fellow Starbros. I want to talk to you about your mutalisk. Something has always felt a bit off about the Starbow mutalisk (and your other air units). I've discussed and tried to get to the bottom of this issue a couple of times with your master magician decemberscalm. But we couldn't quite figure out what it was, and you starbros don't seem to notice it enough to complain about it. After some testing I have come to the conclusion that Starbow's mutalisks behave inconsistently when issued an attack order from outside their attack range. My point of comparison has always been the SC2BW muta which, in contrast, sort of elastically flings in at full speed towards its target and maintains a nice glide whether you issue the attack command within or outside the mutalisks' attack range. In Starbow and in SC2, however, the mutas slow down and stop when approaching a target from far away. Today I just copied a bunch of SC2BW values to the Starbow muta and figured out what's bugging me: 1) Separation radius still matters 0.1 separation radius is what's causing the mutas to stop when approaching to fire at a target. My explanation for why this only happens during out-of-range-approach: Since the mutas aren't perfectly bunched together, the first mutas in the cluster arrive in range to fire sooner and thus start slowing down sooner than the mutas in the back of the cluster. What ends up happening is that all mutas ram into eachothers' asses when approaching a target from outside their allowed attack range. I think this is part of the reason why you had to increase muta range to 3.5. Because moving shot in Starbow only works reliably when issued inside the air units' attack range. 2) Acceleration/Deceleration I know you guys want the mutalisks and other air units to decelerate slower so it gets more "hang time" or "glide time" when slowing down. What infuriates me with Deceleration in Starcraft2, however, is that in my opinion the variable is bugged. It doesn't do what it is supposed to do. This is how I would expect a variable like Deceleration to work: 1) Your units moves at a speed of 4 2) You set deceleration to 1.5 3) Your unit has a deceleration of 1.5 per second or whatever applied to it from its current speed. How deceleration in SC2 actually works: 1) Your units move at a speed of 4 2) You set deceleration to 1.5 3) If you move-click anywhere in a 4-ish 5-ish range radius around your units they will immediately slow down to a speed of 1.5 (in other words: 4 --> 1.5 in an instant), and then proceed to decelerate at a rate of 1.5 from a speed of 1.5. What does this mean? In Starbow you can never move-click in close proximity to your air units without also (as a side effect) immediately slowing their speed to the deceleration value. Anyone who wants to test this can set a deceleration value of 0.1 on a unit and compare what happens when issuing move commands far away versus issuing move commands in close proximity. Deceleration needs to be equal to Acceleration in SC2 (or just set to 0). It's too fucking bugged to be set in any other way. 3) Decrease Arc Slop (Mutalisk Glave Wurm) Your Arc Slop for the mutalisk is currently set very generously to 45 degrees. This makes it increasingly likely for single mutalisks in a cluster to veer off and approach different targets (the cluster splits up). It's not the biggest deal, just something that annoys me, because I rather they stick together than start sprinting off targetting 3 different targets because their angle is so generous. So to conclude my mutalisk preferences: Attack range 3 (not really important, you can keep it at 3.5) Arc slop 10-15 degrees Deceleration = Acceleration Separation Radius = 0.001 (will otherwise be guaranteed to fuck up attack-orderded approaches from outside of range). This post assumes that starbow wants bw values for its mutas. Starbow, at times, does state it has BW values for its units. But once looked at closer, it's clearly not the case. Almost all unit interactions are at least slightly different from BW, and add ontop the 7% decrease in speed overall, it's like comparing apples to oranges. December recently made a very close port of BW over to the SC2 engine called "decBW." If you want to feel how true BW values translate into the SC2 engine, I suggest trying there. Some things are a bit off, but it's so much closer to BW it's not even comparable to SB. Starbow picks and chooses what it takes as a baseline in regards to BW, but BW is NOT the baseline for starbow. BW is only a very general outline, usually not followed at all. Getting CORRECT and perscise BW values into starbow, for even one unit or ability, is always meet with extreme opposition from, it seems, at least 1/3 of the community. (btw, BW in its entirety seems to translate very well to the sc2 engine. decBW mod is great and I'll probably be hosting a cash tourney for it towards the end of the summer) | ||
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
The post assumes starbow wants their mutas and air units to glide and not so much that starbow wants them to have BW values. Both as an SC2 and as a BW player you build a habit of issuing constant move clicks close to the flocks/groups you control. I personally haven't played enough starbow to be able to break that habit, so I get annoyed when air units keep "randomly" slowing down with certain move clicks. I have to keep reminding myself "don't click too much and too close to the flock". Same goes for issuing attack commands out of range. I have to keep reminding myself constantly: "make sure the mutas are in range when issuing that attack command to maintain speed". You've probably gotten used to it by now. I think the elastic-mutas feel much better to control (would probably feel so even if I got used to starbow control). But I have a bias of course. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
This is why it has 3.5 range instead of 3 to compensate.. I still feel the muta is weak overall versus terran and protoss. Sniping hightemplars? You will deadstop and take insane amount of damage. Sniping marines or scvs? Yeah. You will take damage. "For Free". I would love a bw muta 100% but it may not be possible. For balance and for funsake. So..Muta can slowdown even while shooting sometimes even? This is really big if its true. Havent really tried to understand what is wrong with muta 100% since i know its not possible to remove the deadstop. But if its possible to improve the muta, the hell yeah, it needs to be improved. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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tehredbanditt
103 Posts
On August 24 2014 13:11 Foxxan wrote: The starbow muta is really crap with its deadstop while killing.. This is why it has 3.5 range instead of 3 to compensate.. I still feel the muta is weak overall versus terran and protoss. Sniping hightemplars? You will deadstop and take insane amount of damage. Sniping marines or scvs? Yeah. You will take damage. "For Free". I would love a bw muta 100% but it may not be possible. For balance and for funsake. So..Muta can slowdown even while shooting sometimes even? This is really big if its true. Havent really tried to understand what is wrong with muta 100% since i know its not possible to remove the deadstop. But if its possible to improve the muta, the hell yeah, it needs to be improved. I think december has a trigger he used for the vulture in decBW that would work to give the sb muta better handling. I'd have to agree with you on the point the SB muta seems to be more trouble then it's worth in most situations. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On August 24 2014 06:24 mau5mat wrote: When is this being released on KR? I think it needs to get on there ASAP and KR players are encouraged to try it out as soon as they can to figure the game out a bit more while it is in beta. We thought so too for a while, and then we realized that we patch all the time and we might scare away players, trying to play a game that is changed every other week. Also we have no plans of translating every patch-note to Korean while the game is in beta. We will try and get the game as stable as possible and then go full out Korean when we feel the game is good and ready for it. I may only have one chance to build up a Korean community, and we want the game to be as good as possible before we do so. On the other hand. The map is actually on the Korean server, we just have not tried very hard (read: done nothing at all) to let Koreans know that Starbow exists, but if a few number of players start to test it out, we welcome that so we can beta-test. ksw is an example of that. I am just thinking while typing, but we could perhaps do some posting on Korean forums that we need beta-testers with a disclaimer that the game will change a lot and the patch-notes will be in English. Hmmmmm. @ LaLush post. If we can mess around with acceleration / deceleration values so the mutas keep their speed even if order to move close to their location, then I am all for that. The almighty decemberscalm will let us know if it's doable. He loves messing around with unit interaction and behaviors. | ||
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
-Uses a seperation and overkill ignoring moving shot on its weapon. -Arc Slop set to 10. -Seperation Radius set to .01 -Behavior based separation activates when more than 12 air units are within a relatively short range of each other -Behavior based separation also activates for ten seconds upon the click of the spread out ability now on the mutalisk. This is not a quick scatter everywhere button, its a use normal separation behavior that any group of mutas over 12 use by default. Splash should still be pretty effective, but you can actually use it to find irradiated mutas that would be impossible to pick out otherwise. Lemme know what you guys think. SBOW is a much trickier beast. The game is balanced around current muta behavior and stats. At the bare minimum I have no qualms setting deceleration to 0 and arc slop to 10 degrees. It MIGHT be okay to add the separation radius ignoring weapon attack to give it the feeling of momentum but it might make things tricky, maybe even warranting removal of the extra .5 range it currently has. Would require a lot of testing before going into the official Starbow mod in my opinion. But that might just be me being the over cautious character I always am. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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