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On March 17 2014 15:20 Xiphias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
Canons have slower firing rate in Starbow due to it being faster than BW when chrono'd. This is something we are keeping an eye on and I actually suggested that it has a slightly faster default fire rate a couple of patches ago, but we waited a bit more. We'll probably restart that discussion if Hydra busts are too easy and too common.
Yes but Protoss is not even doing the correct response. No toss got goon range to deal with the bust.
In BW you would have the same result. A dead protoss. B/c Zealots can't return damage when the hydras poke up to snip a cannon.
I think it is a scouting issue give toss the tools to see the bust coming, The there will be no need to make Protoss easier to play
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On March 18 2014 01:58 WarpTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:20 Xiphias wrote:On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
Canons have slower firing rate in Starbow due to it being faster than BW when chrono'd. This is something we are keeping an eye on and I actually suggested that it has a slightly faster default fire rate a couple of patches ago, but we waited a bit more. We'll probably restart that discussion if Hydra busts are too easy and too common. Yes but Protoss is not even doing the correct response. No toss got goon range to deal with the bust. In BW you would have the same result. A dead protoss. B/c Zealots can't return damage when the hydras poke up to snip a cannon. I think it is a scouting issue give toss the tools to see the bust coming, The there will be no need to make Protoss easier to play
But players dont go BW builds here though. They go chargelot opening and can thus deal with Mutas by mixing in Stalkers. The important thing is just to get a critical mass of Zealots, and then they can beat Hydralisks. However, I think in the final Franscar simply didn't execute the defense well enough.
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On March 18 2014 01:58 WarpTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:20 Xiphias wrote:On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
Canons have slower firing rate in Starbow due to it being faster than BW when chrono'd. This is something we are keeping an eye on and I actually suggested that it has a slightly faster default fire rate a couple of patches ago, but we waited a bit more. We'll probably restart that discussion if Hydra busts are too easy and too common. Yes but Protoss is not even doing the correct response. No toss got goon range to deal with the bust. In BW you would have the same result. A dead protoss. B/c Zealots can't return damage when the hydras poke up to snip a cannon. I think it is a scouting issue give toss the tools to see the bust coming, The there will be no need to make Protoss easier to play
Well people will learn. If dragoons are more effective counter people will be using it. First 6 months of ZvP in WoL was one base builds and 4 gates.
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We used to have that skin. Not sure why we switched it...
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On March 18 2014 01:58 WarpTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:20 Xiphias wrote:On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
Canons have slower firing rate in Starbow due to it being faster than BW when chrono'd. This is something we are keeping an eye on and I actually suggested that it has a slightly faster default fire rate a couple of patches ago, but we waited a bit more. We'll probably restart that discussion if Hydra busts are too easy and too common. Yes but Protoss is not even doing the correct response. No toss got goon range to deal with the bust. In BW you would have the same result. A dead protoss. B/c Zealots can't return damage when the hydras poke up to snip a cannon. I think it is a scouting issue give toss the tools to see the bust coming, The there will be no need to make Protoss easier to play
I don't think ranged goons is the answer to hydra busts, even if you scouted it and have sufficient time to prepare. In the game's current state, it's certainly not an option because you can't scout the bust and build a sufficient goon/cannon defense in time. But even if the developers end up changing something to make it easier for toss to scout early game, and you're able to defend with ranged goons, one problem still remains: you're left with a pure goon composition, which is not what you want in the early game because starbow hydras and lings (which the zerg already has tech for) completely wreck goons. This allows the zerg (if he hasn't lost too many hydras) to contain the protoss, throw down a third, and drone up before the protoss can get enough zealots in combination with the goons to break the contain. So at worst, zerg can achieve equality, which is exactly what the protoss doesn't want to have happen after defending an allin.
Again, I haven't tested this extensively (partly because it doesn't work in the current state of the game), so I may be full of crap, but this is just my 2 cents on defending hydra busts with ranged goons. I prefer a zealot/cannon defense, which allows you to go on the counteroffensive after you get charge and build up a significant zealot count.
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"We used to have that skin. Not sure why we switched it..."
Its sad the design of Jim Raynor dropship is more attractive , i hope he come back in game 
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On March 18 2014 08:34 DropKing wrote:"We used to have that skin. Not sure why we switched it..." Its sad the design of Jim Raynor dropship is more attractive , i hope he come back in game
I like better the current model tbh :|
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On March 18 2014 01:58 WarpTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 15:20 Xiphias wrote:On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
Canons have slower firing rate in Starbow due to it being faster than BW when chrono'd. This is something we are keeping an eye on and I actually suggested that it has a slightly faster default fire rate a couple of patches ago, but we waited a bit more. We'll probably restart that discussion if Hydra busts are too easy and too common. Yes but Protoss is not even doing the correct response. No toss got goon range to deal with the bust. In BW you would have the same result. A dead protoss. B/c Zealots can't return damage when the hydras poke up to snip a cannon. I think it is a scouting issue give toss the tools to see the bust coming, The there will be no need to make Protoss easier to play
The answer to busts have never been dragoon range. Dont know why you think that.
The response has pretty much always been: Cannon up, wait for speed/storm. Get a sizeable armee: Move out and crush the hydras outside your natural->game opens up
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On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
no one made goons vs hydra busts back in BW :D
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On March 18 2014 09:29 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
no one made goons vs hydra busts back in BW :D
Not in the mid game yea.... But vs a 2 hatch nydra bust you needed too so when the hydras poked up you had something to return damage.
Zealot speed was not out anytime soon.
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Sorry, warpTV but I played 5-6 ZvP's yesterday and I went 2 base hydra every game (yes I'm a jerk... tbh this was more to see if we need to nerf / buff anything) and the players who responded with dragoons suffered miserably. One one player held it and he build an absurd amount of canons while slowly getting a critical mass of speedlots and won.
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On March 18 2014 16:40 Xiphias wrote:
Sorry, warpTV but I played 5-6 ZvP's yesterday and I went 2 base hydra every game (yes I'm a jerk... tbh this was more to see if we need to nerf / buff anything) and the players who responded with dragoons suffered miserably. One one player held it and he build an absurd amount of canons while slowly getting a critical mass of speedlots and won.
When you say two base does that mean two hatcheries or two mineral base but 3 hatcheries?
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On March 18 2014 15:17 WarpTV wrote:
Not in the mid game yea.... But vs a 2 hatch nydra bust you needed too so when the hydras poked up you had something to return damage.
Zealot speed was not out anytime soon.
Do you mean lurker contain? If zerg goes two hatch lurker or similar then yes, you absolutely need dragoons. Otherwise, 'goons are bad.
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On March 18 2014 15:17 WarpTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 09:29 TT1 wrote:On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
no one made goons vs hydra busts back in BW :D Not in the mid game yea.... But vs a 2 hatch nydra bust you needed too so when the hydras poked up you had something to return damage. Zealot speed was not out anytime soon.
2hatch in bw=/=2hatch in starbow
queens do change a lot
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On March 18 2014 21:31 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2014 15:17 WarpTV wrote:On March 18 2014 09:29 TT1 wrote:On March 17 2014 09:44 WarpTV wrote:
Watching the Finals was painful.
Hydra bust vs Zealots?? I feel some of use forgot about BW responses. Goon range and cannons won the day back then vs hydra bust. What is stopping it now?
I was happy to see a few zergs walling off there nat/3rd.
no one made goons vs hydra busts back in BW :D Not in the mid game yea.... But vs a 2 hatch nydra bust you needed too so when the hydras poked up you had something to return damage. Zealot speed was not out anytime soon. 2hatch in bw=/=2hatch in starbow queens do change a lot
Well, so does Chronoboost
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I'm starting to create a results post w/ vod links of the Starbow Ladder Cup Event 1, I assume not but I hope no one else is doing it too lol cause it's taking me a while.
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EPT
