On January 23 2014 01:06 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 00:56 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 23:41 vthree wrote:On January 22 2014 23:28 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 23:05 vthree wrote:On January 22 2014 22:55 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 22:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:On January 10 2014 11:30 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community. First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today: + Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level. As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for. We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels. Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at. This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder. Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game. Thank you very much! Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL. Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently? I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash? TheBest? INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh? Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality. On January 22 2014 23:05 xongnox wrote:On January 22 2014 22:55 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 22:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:On January 10 2014 11:30 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community. First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today: + Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level. As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for. We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels. Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at. This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder. Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game. Thank you very much! Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL. Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently? do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans.... hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret: Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out. But which you mentioned that a lot of Terrans that haven't played have been doing well lately. Which ones? supernova, Ryung, Dream, Hack? Flash doing bad in GSL, 3 ro16 is better than all the Terrans I listed above. As for Inno not being amazing, he is still rank higher than the Terrans that are about to play. I told feel a couple will make it but it is mainly because if 2 Terran groups and slight weaker opponents. Not because they are better than Inno and Flash in TvP. Who even mentioned TvP? I was talking in general. Frankly I think both of them need to mix it up a bit. And Flash has gone a few times into the second round of Code S. Fine point; but you're missing mine. Its not WHEN he gets knocked out, its HOW. INnoVation meanwhile suffers from the the problem that is he's been an absolute machine rolling over players with rock solid play. But that super solid play has itself become a weakness of late. On January 22 2014 23:46 ZenithM wrote:
Plus, the argument that Terrans eliminate each other is quite funny. Flash and Bravo played each other after both losing to their non-Terran opponent (and the winner got stomped by the remaining non-Terran, of course). SEE? A Terran eliminated a Terran!
At the bottom everyone plays Terran so Terrans get to win a bit of their games, is that it? :D The "argument" was "omg Flash so good how did he get knocked out?!?!? Must be imba!" Except he got knocked out by a Terran in a mirror matchup that is, by definition, balanced (though not necessarily good, see PvP4-gate era). Bleating that Flash was beaten because Terran is underpowered makes no sense in light of that. You'd have a stronger argument if he'd won and got knocked out by Leenock himself. Its perfectly valid to claim that the loss against BrAvO is relevant in the overall impression of "how good was Flash playing in his group" which is what this is all about. If Flash "should have qualified but didn't because P (and possibly Z) are OP" he'd have been in the final match against Leenock; he wasn't, he lost to a fellow Terran. On January 22 2014 23:57 xongnox wrote:On January 22 2014 23:28 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 23:05 vthree wrote:On January 22 2014 22:55 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 22:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:On January 10 2014 11:30 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community. First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today: + Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level. As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for. We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels. Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at. This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder. Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game. Thank you very much! Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL. Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently? I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash? TheBest? INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh? Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality. On January 22 2014 23:05 xongnox wrote:On January 22 2014 22:55 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 22:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:On January 10 2014 11:30 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community. First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today: + Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level. As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for. We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels. Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at. This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder. Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game. Thank you very much! Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL. Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently? do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans.... hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret: Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out. well, zergs are doing well and top-level ZvT seems a bit zerg-favored nowdays (imo wm patch was too hard ), but we don't see yet a lot of mid-tier zerg beating easily top-terran opponents by doing well-know abusive builds (hello 2 base blink), nor we have near 50% zergs in code S. But 50 per cent Protoss in code S seems normal after the 50 per cent protoss in GM for months now. Probably the skill sorted out ! ... Are you for real here? 50% of Code S is Protoss after 82% of Protoss have played their qualifying matches. 38% of Code S is Zerg after 56% of Zerg have played their qualifying matches. This is not a hard concept to grasp. If around 50% MORE Protoss have played their qualifiers then you'd expect more Protoss to currently be qualified unless they're getting stomped through the floor. In terms of actual qualification rate they're actually qualifying at a lower rate than Zerg is at the moment. On January 23 2014 00:29 vthree wrote:On January 22 2014 23:28 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 23:05 vthree wrote:On January 22 2014 22:55 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 22:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:On January 10 2014 11:30 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community. First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today: + Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level. As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for. We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels. Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at. This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder. Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game. Thank you very much! Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL. Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently? I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash? TheBest? INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh? Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality. On January 22 2014 23:05 xongnox wrote:On January 22 2014 22:55 -Celestial- wrote:On January 22 2014 22:24 xelnaga_empire wrote:On January 10 2014 11:30 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community. First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today: + Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level. As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for. We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels. Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at. This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder. Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game. Thank you very much! Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL. Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently? do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans.... hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret: Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out. I am pretty sure Protoss would have been on top if it wasn't for Daedlus. Do you really want balance to come from a map with a map where it is nearly impossible to win a PvT in like Daedlus is for PvZ? Actually the Daedalus winrate "nerf to Protoss" hasn't kicked into gear yet as far as I know because Protoss have been frantically pulling out every trick in the book to try and win on the map. Last numbers I saw showed winrates on the map in ZvP were somewhere around 50% thanks to the Protoss collective bag of all-in tricks. You must have noticed all of the cheeses and crazy all-ins. When Protoss runs out of them then its going to plummet hard. So no, Daedalus wouldn't be effecting these rates...yet... LOL, so you are looking at losses subjectively now? Yeah, Flash loses badly in Ro16, don't you think his opponents have something to do with that? Or are you telling me that Reality, TheBest, Ryung are better than Flash because HOW Flash lost in Ro16? As for Daedalus, you need to check out the latest games. SoS won 1, Ruin and Yonghwa did surprise builds to went 1 each. Then Symbol tied it up for Z (I think this is the point where you stop following). Since then, Solar beat Super twice (Solar picked map after using map 2), Roro beats Panic (Roro picked the map after losing G1), and Life beat Paralyze in the decider. So yes, Daedalus is already affecting these rates.
No, his opponents aren't necessarily relevant to this. Because yet again you're missing the point. Please stop replying if you can't understand the concept of how somebody plays is also related to their ability rather than just how far they are in a competition or whether they win or lose. There's plenty of players who have lost games but looked good doing so. Or won games whilst looking bad. This is how you judge up and coming talent most of the time after all. Flash has really good mechanics but he has other issues with his play.
I actually forgot about the Solar games so that's where my Daedalus discrepency is, ty for the reminder. That being said I don't really think you can read too much into a couple of those wins (Life, for example had already beaten ParalyzE once in a three game series in that group without using Daedalus, so picking it as a decisive factor is a little unfair). Not that I'm disagreeing that its a stupid map; I just don't think we've seen the full impact of it yet, and won't in Code A.
On January 23 2014 02:07 TeeTS wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 01:51 xongnox wrote:
we maybe should adopt a new definition ? :
tier 1 terran : a terran who can beat consistently tier 2 protoss players in individual leagues and challenges tier 1 protoss players (like 30%+ winrate)
so.... hey we only have one tier 1 terran, Maru =) We don´t exactly know in what shape Bomber is yet. Maru and Taeja fill this exactly, Bomber might too. And yes, there is no terran player out there right now, that can put up a real fight on a regular basis against the best protoss players. EDIT: here comes the big BUT: I personally believe, that the current WCS mappool has a lot to do with that. And this is also the reason, why terrans are doing much better in pro league. The current ladder/WCS mappool is quite horrible for terran, especially vs Protoss. I don´t know how retarded the ones were, making these decisions over the pool. But most of the problems we have right now, are because of it!
Have to agree with your edit, the mappool doesn't really seem very well thought out. Its not the full story but its certainly not helping.
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ibcRpE9.jpg)
