|
On January 24 2014 01:51 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:32 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 01:10 plogamer wrote:On January 24 2014 00:58 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard. bomber just used it against JD in habitation station but he lost With bio/mine, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with mines. With bio/tank, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with tanks. With bio/mine/tank... Well, split bio and target fire mines AND tanks. It made some sense on paper to nerf mines with buff to mech upgrades and tank attack speed. However, the off-paper nerf of having to control more units to A) do the most efficient damage, and B) reducing friendly fire; was not taken into consideration. I was pretty hopeful when the changes were introduced myself. Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. I hope we can see some reversal of the nerfs to the mines (partial or otherwise). pro rarely target fire with mines the mine micro is mostly only about burrowing and unburrowing. (and spread out the mines of cause) Bio is often pre spread and poking. the only time when you do reactive spread is when the zerg is trying to break through or you gained a momentum to push on creep. bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank. Whether pros rarely target fire or not, there's no argument that target-firing is optimal. And when pros manage to target fire, they get more damage, and less friendly fire (ex. losing all your medivacs filled with retreating units, though it was pre-nerf mine). By that same token, you see a lot of reactive spreading from pros. While bio-mine is mobile, ling/muta/bane is even faster. When a Zerg chooses to engage away from a pre-spread, entrenched location; Terrans have to move their army and Zergs do their best to exploit that. If I had a penny every time a Terran pro barely burrows mines before an engagement with the Zerg, well, I don't know - I shouldn't exaggerate. But it'd be quite a lot of pennies. /edit Then when you add leap frogging and target-firing with tanks to the mix, it becomes quite a challenging juggle to manage when there's a counter-attack happening at your third at the same time.
that depends on what do you mean by optimal.
you probably want to put more focus on spreading bio over targeting mine, you just won't have enough apm to do so.
pre nerf bio mine always have the momentum which rarely requires them to do reactive splitting (usually off creep), you need to watch how they poke the 4th of zerg while staying off creep with most of the army, and using drops to control muta positioning.
it is normal to see terran burrowing mine before engagement now because of the momentum is there anymore due to the mine nerf
|
On January 24 2014 01:41 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank. That's why I think one of the easiest way to buff biomech/mech comp would be to put tank on 2 supply and decrease buildtime and cost. Maybe even to 75 gas. Bio/tank or bio/tank/mine would have a better way to deal with Mutas since more marines and with tank cost decreased won't cut that much into double/triple upgrades. Furthermore, mobility would still be a problems but eyh, having some drawback is normal and I do think it could be a viable playstyle this way. Even if that means going even slower and leapfrogging with Tank/mines/bunkers. In terms of mech play, it allows a FAR better midgame with a lot more power source TvZ/TvP in straight fight, and better defense (supply decrease). And maybe we could see Terran going out of home before the 10 minutes markes on TvZ/TvP. That would be much, much, much more interesting and challenging for the opponents. EDIT: and make some use of bunkers upgrades would help a lot--> allow HB in it maybe, and incerease range even more by 1. And Raven nerf is needed too.
A buff that huge to tanks would completely destroy TvT, which has already the tank as core unit. They could very well reduce WM supply to 1, that'd be better since they can't kill stuff decently and just aren't worth their supply anymore...
|
On January 24 2014 02:08 Creager wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:41 MTAC wrote:bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank. That's why I think one of the easiest way to buff biomech/mech comp would be to put tank on 2 supply and decrease buildtime and cost. Maybe even to 75 gas. Bio/tank or bio/tank/mine would have a better way to deal with Mutas since more marines and with tank cost decreased won't cut that much into double/triple upgrades. Furthermore, mobility would still be a problems but eyh, having some drawback is normal and I do think it could be a viable playstyle this way. Even if that means going even slower and leapfrogging with Tank/mines/bunkers. In terms of mech play, it allows a FAR better midgame with a lot more power source TvZ/TvP in straight fight, and better defense (supply decrease). And maybe we could see Terran going out of home before the 10 minutes markes on TvZ/TvP. That would be much, much, much more interesting and challenging for the opponents. EDIT: and make some use of bunkers upgrades would help a lot--> allow HB in it maybe, and incerease range even more by 1. And Raven nerf is needed too. A buff that huge to tanks would completely destroy TvT, which has already the tank as core unit. They could very well reduce WM supply to 1, that'd be better since they can't kill stuff decently and just aren't worth their supply anymore...
yeah 1 supply mines could be nice, they feel like dead supply pretty often, I've even ventured into mech and take boring mass raven wins vs zerg since bio is so much harder now, though I hate myself for even touching that kind of OP style of play and I do always apologize to the opponent tt
i wont even commentate on TvP since it's too bizarre lol
|
On January 24 2014 02:08 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:51 plogamer wrote:On January 24 2014 01:32 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 01:10 plogamer wrote:On January 24 2014 00:58 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard. bomber just used it against JD in habitation station but he lost With bio/mine, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with mines. With bio/tank, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with tanks. With bio/mine/tank... Well, split bio and target fire mines AND tanks. It made some sense on paper to nerf mines with buff to mech upgrades and tank attack speed. However, the off-paper nerf of having to control more units to A) do the most efficient damage, and B) reducing friendly fire; was not taken into consideration. I was pretty hopeful when the changes were introduced myself. Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. I hope we can see some reversal of the nerfs to the mines (partial or otherwise). pro rarely target fire with mines the mine micro is mostly only about burrowing and unburrowing. (and spread out the mines of cause) Bio is often pre spread and poking. the only time when you do reactive spread is when the zerg is trying to break through or you gained a momentum to push on creep. bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank. Whether pros rarely target fire or not, there's no argument that target-firing is optimal. And when pros manage to target fire, they get more damage, and less friendly fire (ex. losing all your medivacs filled with retreating units, though it was pre-nerf mine). By that same token, you see a lot of reactive spreading from pros. While bio-mine is mobile, ling/muta/bane is even faster. When a Zerg chooses to engage away from a pre-spread, entrenched location; Terrans have to move their army and Zergs do their best to exploit that. If I had a penny every time a Terran pro barely burrows mines before an engagement with the Zerg, well, I don't know - I shouldn't exaggerate. But it'd be quite a lot of pennies. /edit Then when you add leap frogging and target-firing with tanks to the mix, it becomes quite a challenging juggle to manage when there's a counter-attack happening at your third at the same time. that depends on what do you mean by optimal. you probably want to put more focus on spreading bio over targeting mine, you just won't have enough apm to do so. pre nerf bio mine always have the momentum which rarely requires them to do reactive splitting (usually off creep), you need to watch how they poke the 4th of zerg while staying off creep with most of the army, and using drops to control muta positioning. it is normal to see terran burrowing mine before engagement now because of the momentum is there anymore due to the mine nerf
Optimal as in best case scenario. Certainly when there are banes rolling, splitting bio is probably the priority. But if you spot it in time, have time to split and then focus fire with mines - optimal. But then you add tank positoning and focus fire, you can see how much more difficult it becomes to reach the best case scenario.
Even if you put tanks and mines in the same control group, the range difference makes it awkward - or when tanks kill that clump of banes you were targeting before the widow mine's sentinel missles land (1.5 second + missile travel time vs instant tank shot), makes for very counter-intuitive synergy.
|
It's sickening to see what GSL will be this season. Some patch should have been done long ago. The situation is kind of similar to what it was during the broodlord infestor era. Protoss is utterly dominating and I don't think the photon overcharge nerf they were talking about will do anything else but breaking PvP.
I said it numerous times before, but I say it again ; Terran early game needs to be safer, Protoss early game needs to be a bit less safe. I'd go for a slight msc vision nerf, an overcharge nerf looking like "an overcharged Nexus can't produce anything" and remove the e-bay requirement for turrets.
|
On January 24 2014 02:40 [PkF] Wire wrote:
It's sickening to see what GSL will be this season. Some patch should have been done long ago. The situation is kind of similar to what it was during the broodlord infestor era. Protoss is utterly dominating and I don't think the photon overcharge nerf they were talking about will do anything else but breaking PvP.
I said it numerous times before, but I say it again ; Terran early game needs to be safer, Protoss early game needs to be a bit less safe. I'd go for a slight msc vision nerf, an overcharge nerf looking like "an overcharged Nexus can't produce anything" and remove the e-bay requirement for turrets.
E-bay requirement for turrets, hmm, would this kill banshees once and for all? would this kill DT:s and Oracles both? What about turrets after factory, what would change?
I just wish vision range nerf for moma core and timewarp either removed or moved to mothership, I feel lke timewarp is no needed anyway.
|
United States1072 Posts
Yea the problems we see in TvP are actually issues we see in PvP when you removed the MSC but worse because the composition you can get as Protoss with that kind of Defense will always trump a terran players army....
I'm seeming to remember Innovations quote in WCS when the caster asked him " Innovation you just won a convincing game of TvP when a lot of people see it as a protoss favored match up what do you ahve to say about that?"
Innovation: " Protoss is stronger but the style protoss players are using right now I have a lot of practice against that and thats why i won"
|
Do you feel it'd be a bad thing if every TvT hadn't to begin with banshee harass ? If oracles couldn't wipe out a mineral line so easily ? Man I play toss and I wish oracles never made it to the game, it's such a stupid unit.
Your suggestions are interesting, I feel a more powerful timewarp given to the mothership could give some incentive to build it.
|
On January 24 2014 02:19 ImperialFist wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 02:08 Creager wrote:On January 24 2014 01:41 MTAC wrote:bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank. That's why I think one of the easiest way to buff biomech/mech comp would be to put tank on 2 supply and decrease buildtime and cost. Maybe even to 75 gas. Bio/tank or bio/tank/mine would have a better way to deal with Mutas since more marines and with tank cost decreased won't cut that much into double/triple upgrades. Furthermore, mobility would still be a problems but eyh, having some drawback is normal and I do think it could be a viable playstyle this way. Even if that means going even slower and leapfrogging with Tank/mines/bunkers. In terms of mech play, it allows a FAR better midgame with a lot more power source TvZ/TvP in straight fight, and better defense (supply decrease). And maybe we could see Terran going out of home before the 10 minutes markes on TvZ/TvP. That would be much, much, much more interesting and challenging for the opponents. EDIT: and make some use of bunkers upgrades would help a lot--> allow HB in it maybe, and incerease range even more by 1. And Raven nerf is needed too. A buff that huge to tanks would completely destroy TvT, which has already the tank as core unit. They could very well reduce WM supply to 1, that'd be better since they can't kill stuff decently and just aren't worth their supply anymore... yeah 1 supply mines could be nice, they feel like dead supply pretty often, I've even ventured into mech and take boring mass raven wins vs zerg since bio is so much harder now, though I hate myself for even touching that kind of OP style of play and I do always apologize to the opponent tt i wont even commentate on TvP since it's too bizarre lol
1supply roaches definitely were nice
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
Locking this. This thread has served its purpose and there is a newer balance related thread where discussion can happen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
