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On January 23 2014 23:51 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:48 Pirfiktshon wrote:The majority of the PvT were against SOS and Rain..... I hear those two are pretty great. Yes, But in the same token what david kim used as an indication was ProLeague where you had Maru and TY Dominating in TvP which I hear those 2 are Pretty great too..... So you have to choose one or the other do you count situations like that or no? You can't take the best of both worlds just to turn a blind eye to the results that you don't want and accept the ones you do when its the same situation just one helps your point and the other doesnt..... Hey, if folks can say that all the pro league wins were against substandard Protoss and don't count, the same is true if SOS and Rain play. And said that Terran needs a bit of a buff.
I completely agree with you but look at what David kim said in the OP HE was using that so he is now forced to use other situations that are similar that may disprove his belief whether he likes it or not is all i'm saying. But I 100% agree with you ... you have to either discount them both or use them both ... not just accept what suits your fancy like a shady politician...
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Russian Federation125 Posts
On January 24 2014 00:34 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:31 dargul wrote:
they can simply give +dmg to shields to tanks or hellions. I am not sure what's that supposed to fix.
That supposed to buff terran mech in tvp. may be even allow to play biomech, because mech will work as light version of ghosts.
And it will affect only tvp
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On January 24 2014 00:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:02 goody153 wrote:On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? I think terran basically can only play with two styles right now. Either a 11/11 two rax all-in or a super safe reaper-expand. Nothing more nothing less. On Monday I saw a terran player opening with Thor drop. Diamond T player beat top10 master T player. As said by our P master player - it's so rare that it could win in TvP as well, just repair the thor(s)(he didn't). I'm not saying this can work in GM or pro play. Please - tell me from T players who has innovative style? Who tries something new from time to time. On the P side we have a very wide range from macro players to all-in players. To me it seems like T players are focusing on their mechanics and they are not so much focused on openings, all-ins etc. I just don't know any "weird" pro T player like WhiteRa is(or was in this case, since he disappeared from tourneys). And again, I'm not saying it's not happening, in fact they(T players) can be even more focused on research of this and they are just unsuccessful. I want to show you that there are openings for us, lower leaguers, which can hit fast and hard and works 
Watch the GSL Code A Match of TheBest vs the protoss that was on last night.... he tried aggression things just don't work if you try to be aggressive and he wound up looking horrible and he was laughed off stage probably to never be seen in sc2 again....
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On January 24 2014 00:30 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:02 goody153 wrote:On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? I think terran basically can only play with two styles right now. Either a 11/11 two rax all-in or a super safe reaper-expand. Nothing more nothing less. On Monday I saw a terran player opening with Thor drop. Diamond T player beat top10 master T player. As said by our P master player - it's so rare that it could win in TvP as well, just repair the thor(s)(he didn't). I'm not saying this can work in GM or pro play. Please - tell me from T players who has innovative style? Who tries something new from time to time. On the P side we have a very wide range from macro players to all-in players. To me it seems like T players are focusing on their mechanics and they are not so much focused on openings, all-ins etc. I just don't know any "weird" pro T player like WhiteRa is(or was in this case, since he disappeared from tourneys). And again, I'm not saying it's not happening, in fact they(T players) can be even more focused on research of this and they are just unsuccessful. I want to show you that there are openings for us, lower leaguers, which can hit fast and hard and works
I think WhiteRa is a toss player. Well there was this thing where Taeja has gone 3cc 1 rax and he survived a proxy oracle. Although i have no idea how to pull it off if you are not as good as Taeja. Is that what you meant ? And well terrans are focused on the mechanics since microing mmm is necessary for terrans to survive unless you are so ahead economically against your opponent. Maybe one of the reasons terrans don't have the more all-in oriented players(aside from trolls who only 11/11 every game) is that they are not as flexible as protosses. I mean mech vs protoss is hard to pull off for example. The other all-in terran has is scv pull during 10 minutes+.
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I want to show you that there are openings for us, lower leaguers, which can hit fast and hard and works
Well, in lower league I can win with mass viking, that is not really the point though. (Although My best move ever was sniping a hatch with 12 vikings, spreading my vikings to avoid 8 fungals with 0 vikings touched and got back home. Ah, good old BL/Infestor ERA...)
Although I disagree with the 'great state' of TvZ, at least we see different things and variety.
(TvZ mech too weak until maxed with Raven = too strong once maxed with Raven. And being the most ANNOYING game style ever, apart maybe except mass SH play.)
I agree with the fact that PvP improved a lot in HoTS (Archon/immortal based comp are pretty amazing.) Bad part it's that it was on the detriment of PvZ/PvT. PvT is the same sh#t since WoL Release, and PvZ is Mass SH or Muta switch into basetrade. Could be fun from time to time, but every game? Hell no...
I'd be all for Z/T changes but not for P. For once since WoL release there is ont MU involving P who's not annoying past 10 games watched. They finally made something for toss, although they did it by ruining the two other races, whether it is balance wise (TvP HoTS) or designwise (ZvP/ZvT). Don't think Mscore change is too bad, although MSC vision, or PO range, or stuff like that would have been better IMO.
Buff mech units so biomech/mech comp are better especially midgame, nerf raven too maybe. And CHANGE SH.
My favorite change for it has always been a scourge launcher, BAD in big number, good for drop/harass defense, good against skyT/skyP.
But I think that'll never happens.
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On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced.
The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard.
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On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard.
bomber just used it against JD in habitation station but he lost
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On January 24 2014 00:58 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard. bomber just used it against JD in habitation station but he lost
With bio/mine, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with mines. With bio/tank, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with tanks. With bio/mine/tank... Well, split bio and target fire mines AND tanks.
It made some sense on paper to nerf mines with buff to mech upgrades and tank attack speed. However, the off-paper nerf of having to control more units to A) do the most efficient damage, and B) reducing friendly fire; was not taken into consideration.
I was pretty hopeful when the changes were introduced myself. Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. I hope we can see some reversal of the nerfs to the mines (partial or otherwise).
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Northern Ireland25996 Posts
On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions?
I think it did use to be the case in fairness. In WoL, if you did say a blink allin which was held, you were pretty much dead. Protoss used to HAVE to mix it up, but if they failed with their choice of aggressive build, they were generally dead in that specific set.
In a world where Protoss can go for very aggressive builds and transition to the macro stage of the game
I think the epitome of Protoss sucking in series and being great in Bo1s was PvZ, especially I recalling MC vs Stephano in the Stephano era where they were both close to their peaks. Stephano would pretty much do the same openers every game and tweak things slightly, and MC literally did completely different builds for every single set.
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Russian Federation125 Posts
if you playing bio+mines you need only bio grades - mech grades don't affect mines.
If you play bio+tanks you will need at least mech dmg grades.
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Sweden7978 Posts
Well, it's the MSC which allows these transitions really, it lets you recover so well because you can get away with a skeleton defense for so long. I just wish I had half the aggressive options of a protoss before the 10 minute mark without having to go all in.
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On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard.
Some people have been opening tanks and transitioning into mines = mix of tanks and mines.
But I don't think you should take it that literally. He probably just meant that there should be multiple patterns for biomech.
Though in the reality tanks are still not a good option, since they still don't bring anything to the table that cannot be achieved easier with marauders or mines. Apart from early game defense I guess.
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And guess who was right? I am halfway there! ^^
On January 23 2014 00:30 Glorfindel! wrote:
I believe that not a single Terran that faces a Protoss actually will make it to Code S if he has to win the match.
All Terrans that qualify for Code S will do it by only playing TvT or TvZ.
I also forsee Code S Top 16 to contain 0-1 Terrans if there are no patches before this.
Its been fortold.
Also once again regarding the Pro League TvP-stats -
It is not really fair to use those when three of the best Terran players get to play hardly Code B:ers:
On January 23 2014 00:44 Glorfindel! wrote:
Regarding the argument that Terrans are doing fine in PL:
Of course Terran will have a decent win ratio in Pro League when almost only TY, Flash and Maru are the ones fielded. They get to play players like Terror, Departure (Flash and TYs two last opponents) or Billowy and Hush (Protoss players from MVP / CJs last LineUp).
Imagine if the only Protoss players fielded in Pro League was Rain, Parting and Dear and every team fielded 2-3 Terrans every round. Then Protoss would be close to 100% win ratio in PvT.
The reason Terran is doing well is because the teams field the very best Terran players that gets to face random Code B-level protosses.
When Terran around the three WCS has a representation of around 11% (quoting r691175002: "In WCS America, Terran currently constitutes 2/12 players who have made it through challenger. In Europe, they represent only 3/16 players. And we all know how Korea has gone (1/17 through Code A; 2/24 in Code S).
Quite literally Terrans best tournament representation is in the range of 18%, and the total representation across all the aforementioned tournaments is a shocking 11%.") clearly even David Kim must understand that he can not just look at the win ratio for three Pro League Terrans and consider things to be fine.
As I said, I dont think a single Terran will go through Code A if they have a deciding game against Protoss. Code S will be Maru + everybody who avoided TvP. Code S 16 will probably be 0-1 Terrans if Bbyong or Maru gets a good group.
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On January 24 2014 01:10 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:58 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard. bomber just used it against JD in habitation station but he lost With bio/mine, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with mines. With bio/tank, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with tanks. With bio/mine/tank... Well, split bio and target fire mines AND tanks. It made some sense on paper to nerf mines with buff to mech upgrades and tank attack speed. However, the off-paper nerf of having to control more units to A) do the most efficient damage, and B) reducing friendly fire; was not taken into consideration. I was pretty hopeful when the changes were introduced myself. Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. I hope we can see some reversal of the nerfs to the mines (partial or otherwise).
pro rarely target fire with mines
the mine micro is mostly only about burrowing and unburrowing. (and spread out the mines of cause)
Bio is often pre spread and poking.
the only time when you do reactive spread is when the zerg is trying to break through or you gained a momentum to push on creep.
bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank.
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bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank.
That's why I think one of the easiest way to buff biomech/mech comp would be to put tank on 2 supply and decrease buildtime and cost. Maybe even to 75 gas. Bio/tank or bio/tank/mine would have a better way to deal with Mutas since more marines and with tank cost decreased won't cut that much into double/triple upgrades. Furthermore, mobility would still be a problems but eyh, having some drawback is normal and I do think it could be a viable playstyle this way. Even if that means going even slower and leapfrogging with Tank/mines/bunkers.
In terms of mech play, it allows a FAR better midgame with a lot more power source TvZ/TvP in straight fight, and better defense (supply decrease).
And maybe we could see Terran going out of home before the 10 minutes markes on TvZ/TvP. That would be much, much, much more interesting and challenging for the opponents.
EDIT: and make some use of bunkers upgrades would help a lot--> allow HB in it maybe, and incerease range even more by 1. And Raven nerf is needed too.
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On January 24 2014 01:41 MTAC wrote:Show nested quote +bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank. That's why I think one of the easiest way to buff biomech/mech comp would be to put tank on 2 supply and decrease buildtime and cost. Maybe even to 75 gas. Bio/tank or bio/tank/mine would have a better way to deal with Mutas since more marines and with tank cost decreased won't cut that much into double/triple upgrades. Furthermore, mobility would still be a problems but eyh, having some drawback is normal and I do think it could be a viable playstyle this way. Even if that means going even slower and leapfrogging with Tank/mines/bunkers. In terms of mech play, it allows a FAR better midgame with a lot more power source TvZ/TvP in straight fight, and better defense (supply decrease). And maybe we could see Terran going out of home before the 10 minutes markes on TvZ/TvP. That would be much, much, much more interesting and challenging for the opponents. EDIT: and make some use of bunkers upgrades would help a lot--> allow HB in it maybe, and incerease range even more by 1. And Raven nerf is needed too.
we don't really know how big a 2 supply tank can be and decreasing supply and time will probably be way too powerful on some map.
It is far better to buff thors instead since it goes well with more composition, bio tank thor, marauder hellbat thor etc.
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On January 24 2014 01:32 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 01:10 plogamer wrote:On January 24 2014 00:58 ETisME wrote:On January 24 2014 00:55 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. The thing is that DK thought it would be fun for spectators if terrans were playing bio/tank/mine. Thats whats so stupid. Nobody is going to use both tanks and mines. Thats why he could have buffed the tank without nerfing the WM so hard. bomber just used it against JD in habitation station but he lost With bio/mine, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with mines. With bio/tank, Terrans have to split bio and target fire with tanks. With bio/mine/tank... Well, split bio and target fire mines AND tanks. It made some sense on paper to nerf mines with buff to mech upgrades and tank attack speed. However, the off-paper nerf of having to control more units to A) do the most efficient damage, and B) reducing friendly fire; was not taken into consideration. I was pretty hopeful when the changes were introduced myself. Hindsight is, of course, 20/20. I hope we can see some reversal of the nerfs to the mines (partial or otherwise). pro rarely target fire with mines the mine micro is mostly only about burrowing and unburrowing. (and spread out the mines of cause) Bio is often pre spread and poking. the only time when you do reactive spread is when the zerg is trying to break through or you gained a momentum to push on creep. bio tank mine is not any more challenging than bio tank, the biggest threat (muta) is still a problem whether it is bio tank or bio mine tank.
Whether pros rarely target fire or not, there's no argument that target-firing is optimal. And when pros manage to target fire, they get more damage, and less friendly fire (ex. losing all your medivacs filled with retreating units, though it was pre-nerf mine).
By that same token, you see a lot of reactive spreading from pros. While bio-mine is mobile, ling/muta/bane is even faster. When a Zerg chooses to engage away from a pre-spread, entrenched location; Terrans have to move their army and Zergs do their best to exploit that. If I had a penny every time a Terran pro barely burrows mines before an engagement with the Zerg, well, I don't know - I shouldn't exaggerate. But it'd be quite a lot of pennies.
/edit
Then when you add leap frogging and target-firing with tanks to the mix, it becomes quite a challenging juggle to manage when there's a counter-attack happening at your third at the same time.
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we don't really know how big a 2 supply tank can be and decreasing supply and time will probably be way too powerful on some map
Yep. That's why I'd like to see a testmap with it. Maybe just change to 2 supply first, but I think it won't be enough: 2 supply and 100 gaz is what it need to be used IMO.
And thor, I don't think it's that much of a good idea. Except for Anti-air maybe. What mech lacks is good midgame force against ground. Buff thor and it buff ULTRALATE SkyMech, but not that much biomech, or midgame mech.
Maybe Bio/tank/thor. But now mobility becomes a real problem again with the new muta, you'll need at least 2 thors with your main force and I don't want to speak about your Base air defense. No I'm really sckeptical about thor buff,
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On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced.
Do you consider it success?
IMO bio+mine is to weak now and late game oriented mech too strong.
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On January 24 2014 01:22 Glorfindel! wrote:And guess who was right? I am halfway there! ^^ Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 00:30 Glorfindel! wrote:
I believe that not a single Terran that faces a Protoss actually will make it to Code S if he has to win the match.
All Terrans that qualify for Code S will do it by only playing TvT or TvZ.
I also forsee Code S Top 16 to contain 0-1 Terrans if there are no patches before this.
Its been fortold. Also once again regarding the Pro League TvP-stats - It is not really fair to use those when three of the best Terran players get to play hardly Code B:ers:
This is where you're wrong.
Flash's only "easy" opponent was eMotion (honestly, it seems like he has potential). He also beat Rogue (pretty solid Zerg), Solar (beast on online tournaments lately, just got Code S), Liquid HerO, Sniper, DRG. Not the easiest opponents.
TY's only "easy" opponent was TerrOr. He also beat CJ herO, sOs, Reality, Soulkey, Ruin (iffy but he's Code S), and Keen (admittedly doing poorly lately). Pretty strong names there.
Maru's only "easy" opponent was Stork (heh). He also beat Stats, Zest, CJ herO, DRG, and Super. Again, really solid opponents.
Don't get me wrong, I'm disgusted with TvP right now, but these guys are beating pretty damn good players (including some of the best Protosses in the world).
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EPT
