• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:08
CEST 18:08
KST 01:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play1Team Liquid Map Contest #22: Results and Winners7Code S Season 2 (2026): RO4 and Finals Preview12TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection7Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview8
Community News
[TLMC] Summer 2026 Ladder Map Rotation05.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start)67ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo31Weekly Cups (June 8-14): Clem and Solar double, PTR tested0RSL: S6 Finals played at BlizzCon 202611
StarCraft 2
General
5.0.16 patch for SC2 goes live (8 worker start) Is the larve respawn broken? The Death of Cheese: From a Professional Cheeser Mizenhauer's Douyu Cup Preview ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play
Tourneys
Douyu Cup 2026: $20,000 Legends Event (June 26-28) RSL Revival: Season 6 - Qualifiers and Main Event INu's Battles#17 <BO.9> Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament GSL CK #4 20-21th June
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
New Map Maker - Looking for Advice - Love or Hate Work In Progress Melee Maps [D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 531 Experimental Artillery Mutation # 530 One For All Mutation # 529 Opportunities Unleashed
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Farewell Beloved Starcraft (Youtube Videos) ASL 22 Proposed Map Pool vespene.gg — BW replays in browser Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ?
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues The Casual Games of the Week Thread [BSL22] GosuLeague Casts - Tue & Thu 22:00 CEST
Strategy
Creating a full chart of Zerg builds Relatively freeroll strategies Why doesn't anyone use restoration? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace at Steam NextFest - Last free demo
Dota 2
Looking for a Dota Mentor Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread [H]Internet/Gaming Cafe Tips and Tricks
Fan Clubs
The HerO Fan Club! The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Series you have seen recently... [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books [TV/BOOK] *SPOILERS* Game of Thrones Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 McBoner: A hockey love story Formula 1 Discussion Cricket [SPORT]
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Listen To The Coaches!
TrAiDoS
An Exploration of th…
waywardstrategy
I'm an arrogant trash talke…
FlaShFTW
Gauntlet SC2: A Retrospectiv…
Ctone23
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7309 users

David Kim's Current Balance Thoughts

Forum Index > SC2 General
1229 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 60 61 62 Next
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
January 10 2014 02:30 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374

As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.

First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:

+ Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +
[image loading]


Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.

As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.

We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.

Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.

This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.

Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.

Thank you very much!
Facebook Twitter Reddit
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
HelloSon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States456 Posts
January 10 2014 02:32 GMT
#2
Was that the first time Dayvie put out stats like that on his blog?
yo
Val_
Profile Joined May 2010
Ukraine156 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:39:26
January 10 2014 02:35 GMT
#3
i hope there will be >100P in GM today
it is 42/83 now waiting 200

http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/eu/1v1/all/all
AKA [7x]Val / GML Terran EU
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23579 Posts
January 10 2014 02:35 GMT
#4
Balance wise, they should just let the game develope a bit further before changing something I think. So I like they are going slow here. But gameplay wise there are obvious faults like the swarmhost that should be tackled asap.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
January 10 2014 02:35 GMT
#5
So i guess the thoretical mech buff has been forgotten, so sad :'(
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
jcroisdale
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1543 Posts
January 10 2014 02:36 GMT
#6
The last sentence, i cant tell if he is pandering to us the players, or are they actually going to listen after 3.5 years?
"I think bringing a toddler to a movie theater is a terrible idea. They are too young to understand what is happening it would be like giving your toddler acid. Bad idea." - Sinensis
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
January 10 2014 02:38 GMT
#7
I hope this doesn't mean the changes that the had in mind have been thrown out the window.
Heres to challenger league being heavily Protoss dominated with at least a 75% winrate
The curse is real
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8250 Posts
January 10 2014 02:39 GMT
#8
Protoss losing so much in Proleague is due to the map pool for one. Star Station and Outboxer aren't really good Protoss maps I think? I'd have to rewatch all of Proleague to confirm my guess, unless there's some sort of stats out there on the Internet.
iHirO
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1381 Posts
January 10 2014 02:39 GMT
#9
I'd be interested to know how the player skill was factored out.
GraphicsThis is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
January 10 2014 02:40 GMT
#10
On January 10 2014 11:39 geokilla wrote:
Protoss losing so much in Proleague is due to the map pool for one. Star Station and Outboxer aren't really good Protoss maps I think? I'd have to rewatch all of Proleague to confirm my guess, unless there's some sort of stats out there on the Internet.


There is
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Statistics
The curse is real
RageCommodore
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany912 Posts
January 10 2014 02:42 GMT
#11
On January 10 2014 11:35 DBS wrote:
So i guess the thoretical mech buff has been forgotten, so sad :'(


Hell getting Ravens back to how they worked in WoL would be a buff.
Can't fucking hit shit with seekers now, way too unreliable
BW: sGs.sTaRfaLL SC2: MarojiN | fan of: Darkforce, DBS, Last, Mvp, BoguS/InnoVatioN | Executer vs Choosy on Gladiator - Never forget T-T
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:57:26
January 10 2014 02:44 GMT
#12
Great!

If this continues I can assume that Blizzard will stay out of things, or make just a couple of minor adjustments (if that).

Awesome!

Thanks for the update, DK.
KT best KT ~ 2014
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8250 Posts
January 10 2014 02:46 GMT
#13
On January 10 2014 11:42 RageCommodore wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2014 11:35 DBS wrote:
So i guess the thoretical mech buff has been forgotten, so sad :'(


Hell getting Ravens back to how they worked in WoL would be a buff.
Can't fucking hit shit with seekers now, way too unreliable

Do what Bomber does.

seak99
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada69 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:48:41
January 10 2014 02:47 GMT
#14
what do you think he means by this :

"Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level."
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
January 10 2014 02:48 GMT
#15
Yes........... Nerf the Protoss........
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
January 10 2014 02:50 GMT
#16
On January 10 2014 11:47 seak99 wrote:
what do you think he means by this :

"Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level."


Equal internal MMR?
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
CutTheEnemy
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada373 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:55:27
January 10 2014 02:55 GMT
#17
On EU, 24% of masters players are terran now compared with 35% and 38% for zerg and protoss. How can he say its balanced considering this? His appeal to win percentages within leagues is highly misleading.

He's also been speaking for years as though he's ignorant of our main complaint- its isn't balance per se, its how hard and stressful it is to play terran and win. We know terrans can win once they go pro, but most of us aren't capable of sustaining the serious damage to our personal relationships, grades, hands and paychecks it takes in order to play the race competitively.
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
operwolf
Profile Joined April 2008
United States324 Posts
January 10 2014 02:56 GMT
#18
Are those win percentages current? It says 2013 in the picture, typo maybe?
He'll end up dead, because he'll die.
GunLove
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands105 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 03:01:09
January 10 2014 02:57 GMT
#19
On January 10 2014 11:39 iHirO wrote:
I'd be interested to know how the player skill was factored out.


This is really the elephant in the room in my opinion. It seems to me, that both from the community, and myself as random player, I get the idea that most of the balance complaints stem from the 'fact' that the races aren't equally difficult to play in the lower leagues, not necessarily race imbalances.
And I don't see how it's possible to get any reliable statistics about this issue as long as the reference point of the balancing keeps getting based on that magical 50% that the ladder works towards.
Perhaps a look at random players' statistics might yield some insight, because a cursory glance in gold and platinum league ladders shows some pretty interesting stuff imho.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 10 2014 03:02 GMT
#20
On January 10 2014 11:56 operwolf wrote:
Are those win percentages current? It says 2013 in the picture, typo maybe?

It's been 2014 for ten days.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
1 2 3 4 5 60 61 62 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Big Brain Bouts
16:00
#120
Jumy vs eGGz
Harstem vs sebesdes
TriGGeR vs HeRoMaRinE
RotterdaM336
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
LamboSC2 629
RotterdaM 336
ProTech150
elazer 141
SHIN 76
trigger 67
IndyStarCraft 6
BRAT_OK 5
MindelVK 1
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 26948
Shuttle 1150
EffOrt 987
Jaedong 717
Soulkey 443
BeSt 298
ggaemo 206
Snow 166
Mong 156
firebathero 143
[ Show more ]
actioN 70
Pusan 38
Hm[arnc] 22
HiyA 22
Terrorterran 21
NaDa 20
Rock 18
GoRush 14
ajuk12(nOOB) 12
Sacsri 8
Dota 2
Gorgc4909
qojqva1702
420jenkins245
League of Legends
JimRising 428
Counter-Strike
fl0m1316
zeus626
edward159
Heroes of the Storm
Trikslyr45
Other Games
singsing3660
FrodaN1272
B2W.Neo324
DeMusliM313
crisheroes283
KnowMe124
QueenE74
Mew2King64
ArmadaUGS52
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream6356
StarCraft 2
TaKeTV 375
Other Games
BasetradeTV214
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile114
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• FirePhoenix8
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV6
League of Legends
• Nemesis4424
Upcoming Events
Douyu Cup 2020
12h 52m
Maestros of the Game
20h 22m
herO vs Classic
Maru vs Serral
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
21h 52m
Douyu Cup 2020
1d 12h
BSL22 NKC (BSL vs China)
1d 21h
Online Event
1d 22h
RSL Revival
2 days
WardiTV Weekly
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
[ Show More ]
Bombastic Starleague
4 days
Kung Fu Cup
4 days
OSC
5 days
CrankTV Team League
5 days
Bombastic Starleague
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSCL: Masked Kings S4
WardiTV Spring 2026
Heroes Pulsing #2

Ongoing

IPSL Spring 2026
Acropolis #4
YSL S3
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 1
CSL Season 21: Qualifier 2
SCTL 2026 Spring
Douyu Cup 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
Murky Cup 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026

Upcoming

CSL 2026 Summer (S21)
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Revival: Season 6
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
BCC 2026
Light Tournament 2026
Eternal Conflict S2 Finale
Eternal Conflict S2 E1
Heroes Pulsing #3
FISSURE Playground #5
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.