• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 10:51
CET 16:51
KST 00:51
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Finals Preview: Sweet Victory!12[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror6[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5
Community News
Dark completes military service, returns to SC211[BSL23] RO16 Group Stage19Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?2Weekly Cups (Oct 26 - Nov 1): MaxPax, herO, Solar win0Weekly Cups (October 19-25): Clem triples first in 5.0.175
StarCraft 2
General
Dark completes military service, returns to SC2 Greetings.. No more SC2 streamers on team liquid? Serral's getting trashed by New Catsle's Mind Weekly Cups (Nov 2-8): herO back on top?
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) Dark returns! GSL CK #7 4v4 Team Battle (Nov 19) soO & FanTaSy return! SC2 Kevin Scrim 4v4 (Nov 16) RSL goes to London! 2026 Offline Finals Nov 21-22
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[G] How to playtest arcade maps Starcraft 2 Advance [D] the control group Simple Questions/Answers
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 551 Robotic Revival Mutation # 550 Graveyard Shift Mutation # 549 Endless Sparkles
Brood War
General
List of top players active on ShieldBattery BW General Discussion Korean players' earnings Hit New All-Time High! SOOP Hosts SC1 & SC2 Event Tournament: Kevin Scrim BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/
Tourneys
[$1250] International ShieldBattery League [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL23] Ro16 Group A - Saturday 21:00 CET Bisu's Team vs Shuttle's Team 2026-11-14
Strategy
Pluto's TvP 5Marine 2Medic Push Simple Questions, Simple Answers Infested Terran strategies in 2026 Nuke strategy worked in K-League 2026-11-09
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Free Space RTS Game, optimised f. Phone/Tablet etc List of Game Threads The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Trading/Investing Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
Fan Club Resource Thread Reynor Fan Club The Flash Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The time I organised my…
AssyrianKing
Why I built Repalyzer (1.1.…
BlueStar
Innovate or Game Over?
TrAiDoS
ShieldBattery on Mac
Kraekkling
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 11215 users

David Kim's Current Balance Thoughts

Forum Index > SC2 General
1229 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 60 61 62 Next
juicyjames *
Profile Joined August 2011
United States3815 Posts
January 10 2014 02:30 GMT
#1
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/11224302374

As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.

First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:

+ Show Spoiler [Click here for the win percentages] +
[image loading]


Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.

As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.

We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.

Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.

This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.

Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.

Thank you very much!
Facebook Twitter Reddit
This Week in SC2Find out what happened 'This Week in Starcraft 2': http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=278126
HelloSon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States456 Posts
January 10 2014 02:32 GMT
#2
Was that the first time Dayvie put out stats like that on his blog?
yo
Val_
Profile Joined May 2010
Ukraine156 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:39:26
January 10 2014 02:35 GMT
#3
i hope there will be >100P in GM today
it is 42/83 now waiting 200

http://www.sc2ranks.com/hots/eu/1v1/all/all
AKA [7x]Val / GML Terran EU
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23580 Posts
January 10 2014 02:35 GMT
#4
Balance wise, they should just let the game develope a bit further before changing something I think. So I like they are going slow here. But gameplay wise there are obvious faults like the swarmhost that should be tackled asap.
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
DBS
Profile Joined July 2012
515 Posts
January 10 2014 02:35 GMT
#5
So i guess the thoretical mech buff has been forgotten, so sad :'(
"a pitchfork is for hay. a trident is for killing bitches." -djwheat
jcroisdale
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States1543 Posts
January 10 2014 02:36 GMT
#6
The last sentence, i cant tell if he is pandering to us the players, or are they actually going to listen after 3.5 years?
"I think bringing a toddler to a movie theater is a terrible idea. They are too young to understand what is happening it would be like giving your toddler acid. Bad idea." - Sinensis
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
January 10 2014 02:38 GMT
#7
I hope this doesn't mean the changes that the had in mind have been thrown out the window.
Heres to challenger league being heavily Protoss dominated with at least a 75% winrate
The curse is real
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8255 Posts
January 10 2014 02:39 GMT
#8
Protoss losing so much in Proleague is due to the map pool for one. Star Station and Outboxer aren't really good Protoss maps I think? I'd have to rewatch all of Proleague to confirm my guess, unless there's some sort of stats out there on the Internet.
iHirO
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1381 Posts
January 10 2014 02:39 GMT
#9
I'd be interested to know how the player skill was factored out.
GraphicsThis is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?
Tobblish
Profile Joined August 2011
Sweden6404 Posts
January 10 2014 02:40 GMT
#10
On January 10 2014 11:39 geokilla wrote:
Protoss losing so much in Proleague is due to the map pool for one. Star Station and Outboxer aren't really good Protoss maps I think? I'd have to rewatch all of Proleague to confirm my guess, unless there's some sort of stats out there on the Internet.


There is
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2014_Proleague/Statistics
The curse is real
RageCommodore
Profile Joined September 2011
Germany912 Posts
January 10 2014 02:42 GMT
#11
On January 10 2014 11:35 DBS wrote:
So i guess the thoretical mech buff has been forgotten, so sad :'(


Hell getting Ravens back to how they worked in WoL would be a buff.
Can't fucking hit shit with seekers now, way too unreliable
BW: sGs.sTaRfaLL SC2: MarojiN | fan of: Darkforce, DBS, Last, Mvp, BoguS/InnoVatioN | Executer vs Choosy on Gladiator - Never forget T-T
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:57:26
January 10 2014 02:44 GMT
#12
Great!

If this continues I can assume that Blizzard will stay out of things, or make just a couple of minor adjustments (if that).

Awesome!

Thanks for the update, DK.
KT best KT ~ 2014
geokilla
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada8255 Posts
January 10 2014 02:46 GMT
#13
On January 10 2014 11:42 RageCommodore wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2014 11:35 DBS wrote:
So i guess the thoretical mech buff has been forgotten, so sad :'(


Hell getting Ravens back to how they worked in WoL would be a buff.
Can't fucking hit shit with seekers now, way too unreliable

Do what Bomber does.

seak99
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada69 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:48:41
January 10 2014 02:47 GMT
#14
what do you think he means by this :

"Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level."
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
January 10 2014 02:48 GMT
#15
Yes........... Nerf the Protoss........
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
January 10 2014 02:50 GMT
#16
On January 10 2014 11:47 seak99 wrote:
what do you think he means by this :

"Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level."


Equal internal MMR?
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
CutTheEnemy
Profile Joined November 2013
Canada373 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 02:55:27
January 10 2014 02:55 GMT
#17
On EU, 24% of masters players are terran now compared with 35% and 38% for zerg and protoss. How can he say its balanced considering this? His appeal to win percentages within leagues is highly misleading.

He's also been speaking for years as though he's ignorant of our main complaint- its isn't balance per se, its how hard and stressful it is to play terran and win. We know terrans can win once they go pro, but most of us aren't capable of sustaining the serious damage to our personal relationships, grades, hands and paychecks it takes in order to play the race competitively.
Can we help spread the word and create pressure to get Rob Pardo to replace Browder as head of Sc2? Pardo led the team for broodwar, frozen throne, and wow/BC. We need to make this a thing before LotV development starts. Think about it.
operwolf
Profile Joined April 2008
United States324 Posts
January 10 2014 02:56 GMT
#18
Are those win percentages current? It says 2013 in the picture, typo maybe?
He'll end up dead, because he'll die.
GunLove
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands105 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-01-10 03:01:09
January 10 2014 02:57 GMT
#19
On January 10 2014 11:39 iHirO wrote:
I'd be interested to know how the player skill was factored out.


This is really the elephant in the room in my opinion. It seems to me, that both from the community, and myself as random player, I get the idea that most of the balance complaints stem from the 'fact' that the races aren't equally difficult to play in the lower leagues, not necessarily race imbalances.
And I don't see how it's possible to get any reliable statistics about this issue as long as the reference point of the balancing keeps getting based on that magical 50% that the ladder works towards.
Perhaps a look at random players' statistics might yield some insight, because a cursory glance in gold and platinum league ladders shows some pretty interesting stuff imho.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
January 10 2014 03:02 GMT
#20
On January 10 2014 11:56 operwolf wrote:
Are those win percentages current? It says 2013 in the picture, typo maybe?

It's been 2014 for ten days.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
1 2 3 4 5 60 61 62 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
WardiTV Invitational
20:00
WardiTV Not-Summer Championshi
ByuN vs SHINLIVE!
herO vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
WardiTV1430
ComeBackTV 1123
IntoTheiNu 825
TaKeTV 466
IndyStarCraft 235
Rex133
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ByuN 478
IndyStarCraft 235
Rex 133
ProTech74
BRAT_OK 36
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 5781
Rain 1488
Shuttle 1106
Mini 1028
Light 635
BeSt 630
Soulkey 286
ggaemo 231
hero 210
ZerO 195
[ Show more ]
firebathero 185
Zeus 183
actioN 102
Mind 81
sorry 72
Sea.KH 59
Killer 44
PianO 44
Barracks 40
Yoon 19
JYJ 18
zelot 18
Rock 17
scan(afreeca) 17
Free 16
Hm[arnc] 16
Sacsri 15
Aegong 14
soO 14
yabsab 9
Dota 2
qojqva3172
monkeys_forever346
Counter-Strike
jkaem187
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor348
Other Games
FrodaN5937
singsing2380
Liquid`RaSZi1228
B2W.Neo613
Beastyqt487
syndereN243
Fuzer 189
KnowMe167
CosmosSc2 22
ZerO(Twitch)20
Railgan13
fpsfer 2
Organizations
Other Games
EGCTV853
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 28
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• HerbMon 45
• Michael_bg 6
• Azhi_Dahaki2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
IPSL
1h 9m
Art_Of_Turtle vs KameZerg
Radley vs George
BSL
4h 9m
Artosis vs Dewalt
Ret vs Tech
SOOP
18h 9m
soO vs FanTaSy
WardiTV Weekly
20h 9m
Monday Night Weeklies
2 days
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
The PondCast
2 days
GSL
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
5 days
BSL
6 days
eOnzErG vs StRyKeR
Cross vs JDConan
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-11-14
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
HCC Season 3

Ongoing

Acropolis #5
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 4
International ShieldBattery League
BSL Season 23
IPSL Winter 2026-27
Calamity Cup Div. A Season 8
Underdog Cup 2026 Div 2-3
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026

Upcoming

YSL S4
Sector 591
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
StarCraft2 Weekly Open Tournament 2026 Grand Finals
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
IEM Kraków 2027
PGL Bucharest 2027
BLAST Bounty Winter 2027
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.