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The majority of the PvT were against SOS and Rain..... I hear those two are pretty great.
Yes, But in the same token what david kim used as an indication was ProLeague where you had Maru and TY Dominating in TvP which I hear those 2 are Pretty great too.....
So you have to choose one or the other do you count situations like that or no? You can't take the best of both worlds just to turn a blind eye to the results that you don't want and accept the ones you do when its the same situation just one helps your point and the other doesnt.....
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On January 23 2014 23:15 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:11 Big J wrote:On January 23 2014 21:59 Fjodorov wrote:On January 23 2014 21:51 SeXyBaCk wrote:
Anyone who refuses to see that TvP is completely broken now is delusional. Pro-league means nothing. I can't remember the last time a terran even remotely won a set easily against protoss. Winning usually involves 3 pronged attacking and a protoss walking their colossus or templars into a small unit of bio and losing the game due to poor control. Whenever there's army clashing terran dies.
This has simply happened because one by one every terran timing has been nerfed out of the game. What do you want to achieve playing TvP these days? What are you going for? What's the aim? Deny a third? Deny a 4th? Get to lategame ghost viking? What? 2-2 pushes? None of it remotely works. All it is now is surviving whatever massive attack protoss throws at you and then stay in the game hoping protoss will somehow mess up their control and throw away their aoe damage.
I don't think TvZ has been played enough yet post mine nerf to call it balanced. There seems to be way more mech play because the mines feel close to useless against mutas these days, as well as the hits vs bane ling feel completely random. Zerg have figured out mines, and even if the nerf was undone I think they could still handle them and results would be the same.
Now I understand balance team addressing mines, at times they felt devestating and change a game within 1 second. Why TvP hasn't been addressed in 2 years of protoss dominating the matchup is utterly beyond me.
Someone tell me if were to bet money on starcraft between pro players, would anyone right now bet on the terran when up against the protoss if you knew nothing about the players? Are you putting your money on the protoss or the terran? Be honest.
That is not balance. It's not even remotely close. 95% will honestly put their money on the protoss. Oh but DK nerfed the mine for entertainment purposes. He wanted to see the tank more, saying tanks and mines is more fun for the spectator than just mines. Its hilarious if you think about it, but dont spend to much time thinking about it becasue in the end you will want to bash your head against a wall. and buffed the tank and the merged the air & mech upgrades in the same patch and it has been a huge success in TvZ, as we are currently seeing bio and mech being played and the matchup looking quite balanced. I'd say that the MU is currently in flux. There's more mech being played, and it's still catching people off guard (pretty much every mech v Z I see has the Z go for melee upgrade into muta, into OHSHITITSMECH!. And then they narrowly lose. Some zerg also scouted mech and went for a roach drop into losing all roaches to a single repaired thor, into gg. The reaper expand into cloak banshee into fast thors mech opening has been popular for just over a week, so the next 2 weeks should tell us if it's viable or not.
Mech vs Zerg will very likely stabilize into something like medium to heavy muta harass depending on map, into swarm hosts and vipers. I think a rather late fifth will be very common to minimize the amount of space the swarm hosts need to cover initially. It will became stale quite quickly imo as zergs perfect the muta harass into four base turtle style.
I saw Maru and Flash attempt more aggressive styles of mech, where the attritional nature of hosts is turned against them as they cannot kill the mech units quickly enough to protect the zerg buildings, but this looks like something zerg will figure out before long. All in all, it's cool that more options open up for terran in ZvT, but the late game mass skyterran army is still insanely good and forces a playstyle from Z that will make every game look like Firecake is playing.
It still feels like ground based mech is a little weak and air based mech is a little strong. Bio...eh, bio just looks incredibly hard to play vs zergs with good micro and high APM. I'm really looking forward to the potential Major vs Scarlett games on friday, since Major is probably the best mecher in NA(sorry Avilo).
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there was once when bomber was streaming NA server after the oracle buff .. and he won every single tvt and tvz but lost almost every tvp he played .. it was brutal
It would be fine if he was playing in KR server but he was playing against random NA gm protosses. And he was losing to almost every single one of them. That was even after Blizzcon .
If Bomber with great results and one of the terrans considered in the top 10 terrans in the world loses to NA gm protosses. You know something is wrong with balance when a world class player is losing to a gm level.
If a championship caliber contender is losing to almost NA gm's that is practically absurd.
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On January 23 2014 23:48 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +The majority of the PvT were against SOS and Rain..... I hear those two are pretty great. Yes, But in the same token what david kim used as an indication was ProLeague where you had Maru and TY Dominating in TvP which I hear those 2 are Pretty great too..... So you have to choose one or the other do you count situations like that or no? You can't take the best of both worlds just to turn a blind eye to the results that you don't want and accept the ones you do when its the same situation just one helps your point and the other doesnt.....
Also TY (who is doing absolutely great in PL) is 0-6 in his last PvT's (even lost to Alicia >>)... And didn't even make it to Code A. Soooo welp.
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On January 23 2014 23:48 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +The majority of the PvT were against SOS and Rain..... I hear those two are pretty great. Yes, But in the same token what david kim used as an indication was ProLeague where you had Maru and TY Dominating in TvP which I hear those 2 are Pretty great too..... So you have to choose one or the other do you count situations like that or no? You can't take the best of both worlds just to turn a blind eye to the results that you don't want and accept the ones you do when its the same situation just one helps your point and the other doesnt.....
Hey, if folks can say that all the pro league wins were against substandard Protoss and don't count, the same is true if SOS and Rain play.
And said that Terran needs a bit of a buff.
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On January 23 2014 23:50 Swiipii wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:48 Pirfiktshon wrote:The majority of the PvT were against SOS and Rain..... I hear those two are pretty great. Yes, But in the same token what david kim used as an indication was ProLeague where you had Maru and TY Dominating in TvP which I hear those 2 are Pretty great too..... So you have to choose one or the other do you count situations like that or no? You can't take the best of both worlds just to turn a blind eye to the results that you don't want and accept the ones you do when its the same situation just one helps your point and the other doesnt..... Also TY (who is doing absolutely great in PL) is 0-6 in his last PvT's (even lost to Alicia >>)... And didn't even make it to Code A. Soooo welp.
agreed it was b01 .. in a series play its hard to win against a protoss when you have to predict every single all-in they might and might not do. While they are almost unpunishable in the early and can go greedy terran has to play extremely safe just to be sure.
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Terrans really suffering in WCS challenger so far. In series, they are 16-3 against protoss. Only wins so far are Cure>Hurricane, Bomber>Jim, and Happy>ABomb - one from each region.
As a viewer this is going to make for a disappointing Code S season since 1/2 the matchups will be seriously underrepresented or completely missing. This could easily be a more disappointing season to watch than November 2011 Code S which was 60% terran. At least the GSL system now means that things can change much more drastically between seasons and hopefully next season is more even! I'm going to go through TvT withdrawal.
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I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions?
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On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions?
I think terran basically can only play with two styles right now.
Either a 11/11 two rax all-in or a super safe reaper-expand. Nothing more nothing less.
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On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions?
Mantras stick. Currently protoss is doing VERY well in every facet of competition. The race is now so safe in the early game that it can combine extreme greed with extreme aggression very successfully, which makes playing longer series against it quite difficult because you never know what could be coming.
Probably nothing that can be fixed, protoss is practically a house of cards, any changes will have to be aimed at zerg and terran.
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On January 24 2014 00:05 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? Mantras stick. Currently protoss is doing VERY well in every facet of competition. The race is now so safe in the early game that it can combine extreme greed with extreme aggression very successfully, which makes playing longer series against it quite difficult because you never know what could be coming. Probably nothing that can be fixed, protoss is practically a house of cards, any changes will have to be aimed at zerg and terran.
I agree with this. As much as i hate protoss i think nerfing them would be bad. The new flexible protoss is much better since they can go aggressive gameplay(not turtle) and other stuff they can't do before. And PvP is in a great state. It would be horrible to destroy it.
Buffing terran/zerg would be the right choice to go. And/or make the maps not blink favored with be another choice.
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I think its fair to say that code s will be all PvZ's. And with the current state PvZ is in, we will only see swarm host boring games. Cause nothing else works in PvZ atm.
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On January 24 2014 00:15 Rainmansc wrote:
I think its fair to say that code s will be all PvZ's. And with the current state PvZ is in, we will only see swarm host boring games. Cause nothing else works in PvZ atm.
Muta basetrade is pretty strong, though very map dependent.
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David Kim posting league winrates again. I wonder if he really understands how their own matchmaking works.
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On January 24 2014 00:05 Squat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? Mantras stick. Currently protoss is doing VERY well in every facet of competition. The race is now so safe in the early game that it can combine extreme greed with extreme aggression very successfully, which makes playing longer series against it quite difficult because you never know what could be coming. Probably nothing that can be fixed, protoss is practically a house of cards, any changes will have to be aimed at zerg and terran.
This is perfectly said. TvZ is so actually quite a fun matchup atm. I think the big problem is indeed that P is waaaay to safe in many parts of the game because of the MSC.
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On January 24 2014 00:10 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:05 Squat wrote:On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? Mantras stick. Currently protoss is doing VERY well in every facet of competition. The race is now so safe in the early game that it can combine extreme greed with extreme aggression very successfully, which makes playing longer series against it quite difficult because you never know what could be coming. Probably nothing that can be fixed, protoss is practically a house of cards, any changes will have to be aimed at zerg and terran. I agree with this. As much as i hate protoss i think nerfing them would be bad. The new flexible protoss is much better since they can go aggressive gameplay(not turtle) and other stuff they can't do before. And PvP is in a great state. It would be horrible to destroy it. Buffing terran/zerg would be the right choice to go. And/or make the maps not blink favored with be another choice.
Buffing Terran more (especially mech) can be problematic TvT and Zerg looks kinda good if you like the boring SW style.
What i would love to see is to change the MSC not by nerfing it directly but make it more of an investment by letting it work like the Orbital Command. Increase the building time to make it more of an investment earlygamy. Lets say to 60 - 90 seconds so you either have to spend more chronoboost (less probes, slower tech) or that it cost more probe building time.
In that way it could be easier to scout (early MSC = agression) and it would cut out the early MSC out of the most economical builds.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On January 24 2014 00:02 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? I think terran basically can only play with two styles right now. Either a 11/11 two rax all-in or a super safe reaper-expand. Nothing more nothing less.
On Monday I saw a terran player opening with Thor drop. Diamond T player beat top10 master T player. As said by our P master player - it's so rare that it could win in TvP as well, just repair the thor(s)(he didn't). I'm not saying this can work in GM or pro play.
Please - tell me from T players who has innovative style? Who tries something new from time to time. On the P side we have a very wide range from macro players to all-in players. To me it seems like T players are focusing on their mechanics and they are not so much focused on openings, all-ins etc.
I just don't know any "weird" pro T player like WhiteRa is(or was in this case, since he disappeared from tourneys).
And again, I'm not saying it's not happening, in fact they(T players) can be even more focused on research of this and they are just unsuccessful. I want to show you that there are openings for us, lower leaguers, which can hit fast and hard and works 
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Russian Federation125 Posts
they can simply give +dmg to shields to tanks or hellions.
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On January 24 2014 00:28 Micro_Jackson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2014 00:10 goody153 wrote:On January 24 2014 00:05 Squat wrote:On January 23 2014 23:59 Micro_Jackson wrote:
I don´t get why people still think Protoss is the best bo1 race and less good at bo3/5/7.
Protoss is the race with the most allins and most opening option currently right? Isn´t that a good thing in bo3 situations because you can get into the head of your opponent way better than Terran who has acually 1-3 styles with the exact same openings and unit compositions? Mantras stick. Currently protoss is doing VERY well in every facet of competition. The race is now so safe in the early game that it can combine extreme greed with extreme aggression very successfully, which makes playing longer series against it quite difficult because you never know what could be coming. Probably nothing that can be fixed, protoss is practically a house of cards, any changes will have to be aimed at zerg and terran. I agree with this. As much as i hate protoss i think nerfing them would be bad. The new flexible protoss is much better since they can go aggressive gameplay(not turtle) and other stuff they can't do before. And PvP is in a great state. It would be horrible to destroy it. Buffing terran/zerg would be the right choice to go. And/or make the maps not blink favored with be another choice. Buffing Terran more (especially mech) can be problematic TvT and Zerg looks kinda good if you like the boring SW style. What i would love to see is to change the MSC not by nerfing it directly but make it more of an investment by letting it work like the Orbital Command. Increase the building time to make it more of an investment earlygamy. Lets say to 60 - 90 seconds so you either have to spend more chronoboost (less probes, slower tech) or that it cost more probe building time. In that way it could be easier to scout (early MSC = agression) and it would cut out the early MSC out of the most economical builds.
I actually have never thought of that. Or like many people suggested that using MSC photon overcharge would prevent toss players from building probes in nexus used. Having a slower to be purchased core might hurt the timing in the current state of PvP.
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On January 24 2014 00:31 dargul wrote:
they can simply give +dmg to shields to tanks or hellions.
I am not sure what's that supposed to fix.
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EPT
