Regarding the argument that Terrans are doing fine in PL:
Of course Terran will have a decent win ratio in Pro League when almost only TY, Flash and Maru are the ones fielded. They get to play players like Terror, Departure (Flash and TYs two last opponents) or Billowy and Hush (Protoss players from MVP / CJs last LineUp).
Imagine if the only Protoss players fielded in Pro League was Rain, Parting and Dear and every team fielded 2-3 Terrans every round. Then Protoss would be close to 100% win ratio in PvT.
The reason Terran is doing well is because the teams field the very best Terran players that gets to face random Code B-level protosses.
When Terran around the three WCS has a representation of around 11% (quoting r691175002: "In WCS America, Terran currently constitutes 2/12 players who have made it through challenger. In Europe, they represent only 3/16 players. And we all know how Korea has gone (1/17 through Code A; 2/24 in Code S).
Quite literally Terrans best tournament representation is in the range of 18%, and the total representation across all the aforementioned tournaments is a shocking 11%.") clearly even David Kim must understand that he can not just look at the win ratio for three Pro League Terrans and consider things to be fine.
As I said, I dont think a single Terran will go through Code A if they have a deciding game against Protoss. Code S will be Maru + everybody who avoided TvP. Code S 16 will probably be 0-1 Terrans if Bbyong or Maru gets a good group.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
Hell, this has so much wrong in it:
First, Dear is playing in WCS KR. But we're talking about Code A results, and he is in Code S! So are Trap, Parting and Rain. So, effectively, four top protosses didn't have to compete in Code A, yet the results are this skewed. The only terran that didn't have to is Maru.
Secondly, you can count Jjakji if you want but he left KR for easier games even though he was Code S. So he would have also not competed in Code A.
Third, there are top protoss in other regions: Oz, HerO, MC, Genius, Stardust Arthur, Crank, Tassadar, Alicia, Sage. Hell, there are more top level P in other regions.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
And when tier 2 protoss are beating tier 2 terrans at a 85% rate, isn't that a problem as well?
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
Hell, this has so much wrong in it:
First, Dear is playing in WCS KR. But we're talking about Code A results, and he is in Code S! So are Trap, Parting and Rain. So, effectively, four top protosses didn't have to compete in Code A, yet the results are this skewed. The only terran that didn't have to is Maru.
Secondly, you can count Jjakji if you want but he left KR for easier games even though he was Code S. So he would have also not competed in Code A.
Third, there are top protoss in other regions: Oz, HerO, MC, Genius, Stardust Arthur, Crank, Tassadar, Alicia, Sage. Hell, there are more top level P in other regions.
None of those is clearly Code S level as opposed to protosses fighting in Code A like herO or Classic.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash?
TheBest?
INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh?
Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans....
hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol
I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret:
Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out.
But which you mentioned that a lot of Terrans that haven't played have been doing well lately. Which ones? supernova, Ryung, Dream, Hack?
Flash doing bad in GSL, 3 ro16 is better than all the Terrans I listed above. As for Inno not being amazing, he is still rank higher than the Terrans that are about to play. I told feel a couple will make it but it is mainly because if 2 Terran groups and slight weaker opponents. Not because they are better than Inno and Flash in TvP.
Who even mentioned TvP? I was talking in general. Frankly I think both of them need to mix it up a bit.
And Flash has gone a few times into the second round of Code S. Fine point; but you're missing mine. Its not WHEN he gets knocked out, its HOW. INnoVation meanwhile suffers from the the problem that is he's been an absolute machine rolling over players with rock solid play. But that super solid play has itself become a weakness of late.
On January 22 2014 23:46 ZenithM wrote: Plus, the argument that Terrans eliminate each other is quite funny. Flash and Bravo played each other after both losing to their non-Terran opponent (and the winner got stomped by the remaining non-Terran, of course). SEE? A Terran eliminated a Terran! At the bottom everyone plays Terran so Terrans get to win a bit of their games, is that it? :D
The "argument" was "omg Flash so good how did he get knocked out?!?!? Must be imba!"
Except he got knocked out by a Terran in a mirror matchup that is, by definition, balanced (though not necessarily good, see PvP4-gate era). Bleating that Flash was beaten because Terran is underpowered makes no sense in light of that. You'd have a stronger argument if he'd won and got knocked out by Leenock himself. Its perfectly valid to claim that the loss against BrAvO is relevant in the overall impression of "how good was Flash playing in his group" which is what this is all about. If Flash "should have qualified but didn't because P (and possibly Z) are OP" he'd have been in the final match against Leenock; he wasn't, he lost to a fellow Terran.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash?
TheBest?
INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh?
Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans....
hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol
I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret:
Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out.
well, zergs are doing well and top-level ZvT seems a bit zerg-favored nowdays (imo wm patch was too hard ), but we don't see yet a lot of mid-tier zerg beating easily top-terran opponents by doing well-know abusive builds (hello 2 base blink), nor we have near 50% zergs in code S. But 50 per cent Protoss in code S seems normal after the 50 per cent protoss in GM for months now. Probably the skill sorted out ! ...
Are you for real here?
50% of Code S is Protoss after 82% of Protoss have played their qualifying matches.
38% of Code S is Zerg after 56% of Zerg have played their qualifying matches.
This is not a hard concept to grasp. If around 50% MORE Protoss have played their qualifiers then you'd expect more Protoss to currently be qualified unless they're getting stomped through the floor. In terms of actual qualification rate they're actually qualifying at a lower rate than Zerg is at the moment.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash?
TheBest?
INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh?
Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans....
hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol
I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret:
Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out.
I am pretty sure Protoss would have been on top if it wasn't for Daedlus. Do you really want balance to come from a map with a map where it is nearly impossible to win a PvT in like Daedlus is for PvZ?
Actually the Daedalus winrate "nerf to Protoss" hasn't kicked into gear yet as far as I know because Protoss have been frantically pulling out every trick in the book to try and win on the map. Last numbers I saw showed winrates on the map in ZvP were somewhere around 50% thanks to the Protoss collective bag of all-in tricks. You must have noticed all of the cheeses and crazy all-ins. When Protoss runs out of them then its going to plummet hard.
So no, Daedalus wouldn't be effecting these rates...yet...
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
Hell, this has so much wrong in it:
First, Dear is playing in WCS KR. But we're talking about Code A results, and he is in Code S! So are Trap, Parting and Rain. So, effectively, four top protosses didn't have to compete in Code A, yet the results are this skewed. The only terran that didn't have to is Maru.
Secondly, you can count Jjakji if you want but he left KR for easier games even though he was Code S. So he would have also not competed in Code A.
Third, there are top protoss in other regions: Oz, HerO, MC, Genius, Stardust Arthur, Crank, Tassadar, Alicia, Sage. Hell, there are more top level P in other regions.
None of those is clearly Code S level as opposed to protosses fighting in Code A like herO or Classic.
That just shows your ignorance. Consider for example Alicia. You say that Alicia couldn't possibly beat a Code S terran like TY, right? You know, the guy with the ridiculously high winrate in Proleague that everyone is citing.... Well, Alicia beat him 2-0 today. Ezpz.
Many of the other haven't got many recent games, but last we saw them, they were competing at the higher level, series off the likes of Jaedong and Innovation.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
And when tier 2 protoss are beating tier 2 terrans at a 85% rate, isn't that a problem as well?
Panic vs Cure?
While i agree, that Protoss is now stronger in PvT, Zest is one of the best Protosses around. Just look at his stats from last season of Proleague. And Bogus isnt in the best shape lately, especially in TvP. He isnt that monster, who was destroing everyone, like he was in the first half of 2013. But I still think he should be in Code S, and if he wouldnt have 3 Protosses in his group, he would be, but his TvP isnt nearly as good as his other 2 matchups.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash?
TheBest?
INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh?
Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans....
hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol
I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret:
Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out.
But which you mentioned that a lot of Terrans that haven't played have been doing well lately. Which ones? supernova, Ryung, Dream, Hack?
Flash doing bad in GSL, 3 ro16 is better than all the Terrans I listed above. As for Inno not being amazing, he is still rank higher than the Terrans that are about to play. I told feel a couple will make it but it is mainly because if 2 Terran groups and slight weaker opponents. Not because they are better than Inno and Flash in TvP.
Who even mentioned TvP? I was talking in general. Frankly I think both of them need to mix it up a bit.
And Flash has gone a few times into the second round of Code S. Fine point; but you're missing mine. Its not WHEN he gets knocked out, its HOW. INnoVation meanwhile suffers from the the problem that is he's been an absolute machine rolling over players with rock solid play. But that super solid play has itself become a weakness of late.
On January 22 2014 23:46 ZenithM wrote: Plus, the argument that Terrans eliminate each other is quite funny. Flash and Bravo played each other after both losing to their non-Terran opponent (and the winner got stomped by the remaining non-Terran, of course). SEE? A Terran eliminated a Terran! At the bottom everyone plays Terran so Terrans get to win a bit of their games, is that it? :D
The "argument" was "omg Flash so good how did he get knocked out?!?!? Must be imba!"
Except he got knocked out by a Terran in a mirror matchup that is, by definition, balanced (though not necessarily good, see PvP4-gate era). Bleating that Flash was beaten because Terran is underpowered makes no sense in light of that. You'd have a stronger argument if he'd won and got knocked out by Leenock himself. Its perfectly valid to claim that the loss against BrAvO is relevant in the overall impression of "how good was Flash playing in his group" which is what this is all about. If Flash "should have qualified but didn't because P (and possibly Z) are OP" he'd have been in the final match against Leenock; he wasn't, he lost to a fellow Terran.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash?
TheBest?
INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh?
Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans....
hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol
I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret:
Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out.
well, zergs are doing well and top-level ZvT seems a bit zerg-favored nowdays (imo wm patch was too hard ), but we don't see yet a lot of mid-tier zerg beating easily top-terran opponents by doing well-know abusive builds (hello 2 base blink), nor we have near 50% zergs in code S. But 50 per cent Protoss in code S seems normal after the 50 per cent protoss in GM for months now. Probably the skill sorted out ! ...
Are you for real here?
50% of Code S is Protoss after 82% of Protoss have played their qualifying matches.
38% of Code S is Zerg after 56% of Zerg have played their qualifying matches.
This is not a hard concept to grasp. If around 50% MORE Protoss have played their qualifiers then you'd expect more Protoss to currently be qualified unless they're getting stomped through the floor. In terms of actual qualification rate they're actually qualifying at a lower rate than Zerg is at the moment.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
I called bullshit on that? Which Terran left have been playing better than Inno, Flash?
TheBest?
INnoVation hasn't been "amazing" for a little while now, many have commented about how his overly methodical approach is costing him games, and Flash has never performed particularly well in the GSL, he seems to just lose it (for want of a better term) at some point and come crashing out sooner or later. He's doing much better with Proleague though. Not to mention Flash was knocked out by BrAvO who in turn was taken out by Leenock; them dirty Protosses getting Zerg and other Terrans to do their work for them eh?
Honestly if you want names I'd probably give Ryung a good shout of qualifying. Same for SuperNoVa and Reality.
As a follow-up to last week’s discussion on balance, we constructed a more in-depth look at what we’re thinking, especially considering how popular the topic is right now for this community.
First, let’s take a look at what we’re seeing on the ladder. These are what the matchup win percentages look like per league across the three major regions, from the start of the season through today:
Please keep in mind these are not straight-up win percentages. They’re win percentages with player skill factored out. When we grab win/loss data for balance purposes, we categorize each game with 2 different variables per side: one being player skill and other being race strength. So by factoring the player skill out, we are able to more accurately check how each race is doing at each skill level.
As you can see, Protoss does have an edge in PvT that slightly surpasses the minor advantages existing in other matchups. Nonetheless, the popular belief that Terran almost never wins vs. Protoss can be put to rest. The data does suggest that yes, we probably want to make some minor balance tweaks if this trend continues, but we don’t have a clear indication that major changes are called for.
We absolutely hear your concerns about GM league representation not being evenly distributed. Obviously, we’d like to see even numbers of players at every skill level, but this one in particular presents two issues: it’s a very small sample size, and it doesn’t represent the pro level very well in all three regions. This is not to say that GM representation balance doesn’t matter – it does matter. We simply believe in putting a bigger emphasis on the pro level as well as all of the other league levels.
Speaking of the pro level, we’ve been getting a lot of feedback from pro players that is contrary to what we were hearing from them last season. This seems to be mostly because of the results for Protoss pros this week in Proleague play. It’s the only major tournament going on right now, and it represents a sample size that is too small to draw any broad conclusions from, but Protoss players have lost at a noticeable clip in that tournament. As of this writing, they’ve recorded only 11 wins in 35 non-mirror matchups. As always, we’re closely following everything, and fortunately we have the WCS qualifiers getting underway to look at.
This is a time to continue discussing and reading your feedback on ways to slightly nerf Protoss or slightly buff Terran in the PvT matchup. Our multiplayer team’s focus going forward in the next weeks is definitely on this area. However, if the ladder data changes and/or if the pro level continues to skew, we’re open to changing our direction. We’ve seen plenty of times in the past where meta games change at the pro level, and that translates to changes in balance at other skill levels on the ladder.
Please understand: we’re looking most closely at areas that you, the players believe to be the biggest issues. Please continue providing your constructive feedback. We always want to be as sure as possible when making balance updates to the game.
Thank you very much!
Hope David Kim is paying attention to the GSL. It's not just a GM problem anymore. This has been one of the worst GSLs ever with a measly 2 Terran representatives. This is almost as bad as the height of the Broodlord/Infestor fiasco or the Terran fiasco at the beginning of WoL.
Er...you do realise there are still four groups left, right? Comprising more than a third of the Terrans in Code A? A number of whom have been playing better than those who have already played recently?
do you realize that even if all terran left in coded A qualify for code S, terran will be the least represented race with 8 players ? tip : this is highly improbable... we will have likely something from 2 to 4 terrans....
hope DK is proud of his thoughts lol
I'm actually putting together a thread with potential possibilities and the statistics for how the final qualifying lineup could end up so I didn't really want to bring this up yet but I guess I can let you in on a little secret:
Zerg are qualifying at an even higher rate than Protoss is. 66% compared with ~63%. Shock! Horror! Zerg OP! I bet its somehow a Protoss conspiracy like the one that got Flash knocked out.
I am pretty sure Protoss would have been on top if it wasn't for Daedlus. Do you really want balance to come from a map with a map where it is nearly impossible to win a PvT in like Daedlus is for PvZ?
Actually the Daedalus winrate "nerf to Protoss" hasn't kicked into gear yet as far as I know because Protoss have been frantically pulling out every trick in the book to try and win on the map. Last numbers I saw showed winrates on the map in ZvP were somewhere around 50% thanks to the Protoss collective bag of all-in tricks. You must have noticed all of the cheeses and crazy all-ins. When Protoss runs out of them then its going to plummet hard.
So no, Daedalus wouldn't be effecting these rates...yet...
LOL, so you are looking at losses subjectively now? Yeah, Flash loses badly in Ro16, don't you think his opponents have something to do with that? Or are you telling me that Reality, TheBest, Ryung are better than Flash because HOW Flash lost in Ro16?
As for Daedalus, you need to check out the latest games. SoS won 1, Ruin and Yonghwa did surprise builds to went 1 each. Then Symbol tied it up for Z (I think this is the point where you stop following). Since then, Solar beat Super twice (Solar picked map after using map 2), Roro beats Panic (Roro picked the map after losing G1), and Life beat Paralyze in the decider. So yes, Daedalus is already affecting these rates.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
And when tier 2 protoss are beating tier 2 terrans at a 85% rate, isn't that a problem as well?
Panic vs Cure?
While i agree, that Protoss is now stronger in PvT, Zest is one of the best Protosses around. Just look at his stats from last season of Proleague. And Bogus isnt in the best shape lately, especially in TvP. He isnt that monster, who was destroing everyone, like he was in the first half of 2013. But I still think he should be in Code S, and if he wouldnt have 3 Protosses in his group, he would be, but his TvP isnt nearly as good as his other 2 matchups.
Yeah, kind of strange that a lot of terrans TvP have dropped off while protoss have gotten just awesome in PvT? Amazing, isn't it?
Aren't a lot of the protosses the best protosses around nowadays? Yonghwa, Ruin, herO, Zest, Sora, sOs, Dear, Rain, PartinG, Classic, Panic, Squirtle, MyungSik?
Just like in GOMTvT, all the terrans like Ganzi, MMA, Mvp, Happy, TOP, Ryung, Ensnare, Virus, Polt, TheBest, ByuN, MKP, Bomber were one of the best terrans around.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
That's such nonsense, MMA just got his ass handed to him by foreigner protosses Has, Gemini and Macsed, two of who most people haven't heard about. He hasn't played a top level game in a long time.
Everyone loves Polt, but what happens if you put him against a Code S player like Inno (sorry, Code B in Korea ), or Soulkey or sOs, or Life? He loses every time...
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
Well, it's convenient that every Terran remaining in Korea isn't tier 1 by your book. Tier 1 Terrans are smarter than lower tiered ones, so they decided to go beat some foreigners overseas and earn money that way. Superior play indeed.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
Ok with Taeja.
But fricken MMA? He lost to Has, Macsed, Gemini recently.
Polt Lost to Patience, JYP Beat Stardust, HerO . Not exactly dominant and Tier 1...
So that is 3 Tier 1 terrans with Maru already in Code S, Taeja playing in AM and Inno got knocked out by a tier 2. Wow, terran looks to be in good shape!!!
You know, you forgot about Mvp, he just pwned eMotion!!
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
Ok with Taeja.
But fricken MMA? He lost to Has, Macsed, Gemini recently.
Polt Lost to Patience, JYP Beat Stardust, HerO . Not exactly dominant and Tier 1...
So that is 3 Tier 1 terrans with Maru already in Code S, Taeja playing in AM and Inno got knocked out by a tier 2. Wow, terran looks to be in good shape!!!
You know, you forgot about Mvp, he just pwned eMotion!!
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
No. Maru, Taeja and TY are. Taeja is in WCS NA, Ty lost 4-0 to Protoss, Maru was Code S already. Polt only plays well in foreigner tournaments and while he is good, we haven't seem him recently to say he is up there. MMA... Well, this must be a joke. The guy goes to play well for 2 months and suddenly is the best terran in the world. What about Flash Cure Bbyong etc.? They'd all SLAUGHTER MMA. Innovaiton has fallen off in skill/strategy recently and is not the top contender he once was.
The fact there's hardly any Terran we can truly consider 'top' terrans speaks for itself, meanwhile, there's a whole slew of protoss players who are top-notch all of a sudden.
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
Ok with Taeja.
But fricken MMA? He lost to Has, Macsed, Gemini recently.
Polt Lost to Patience, JYP Beat Stardust, HerO . Not exactly dominant and Tier 1...
So that is 3 Tier 1 terrans with Maru already in Code S, Taeja playing in AM and Inno got knocked out by a tier 2. Wow, terran looks to be in good shape!!!
You know, you forgot about Mvp, he just pwned eMotion!!
Mvp is just straight bad.
So that is your arguement? There are 3 tier 1 terrans in the world and 1 of them just got knocked out by a tier 2 protoss (Zest). And tier 2 protoss are winning at a 80% clip vs tier 2 terrans?
On January 23 2014 00:29 Ammanas wrote: Why nobody considers the fact, that out of very top (Code S) protoss players only Dear (and arguably HerO) is not playing in WCS KR and only Jaedong (and maybe Hyun) for zergs. While for terrans it is Jjakji, Polt, Bomber, MMA, Taeja... It is obvious that there would be less terrans and protosses, as the top players are not playing in KR region.
And people arguing that 2nd tier protosses are eliminating terrans - which ones do you mean? Classic beat Gumiho which cannot be surprising to anyone who watches KR scene at least a little bit, Classic was almost always even better then Dear in last Proleague when they played on STX - anyone who watched Proleague knew that Classic is gonna make it big sooner rather than later. Yonghwa only beat Flash, no other TvPs were played in that group. Is it surprising considering their results? Maybe a little bit, but nothing too groundbreaking. Keen lost to two protosses, 2nd tier terran lost to 2nd tier protosses, big deal. Innovation losing to herO is not surprising whatsoever considering their skill level and Zest may be a little surprising as he didn't look too good in his SPL PvTs.
So, basically what you are saying is that magically, all the tier 2 Protoss just became tier 1 Protoss and the tier 1 Terrans all moved or dropped to tier 2? Like how back in GOMTvT, TOP, Happy and ganzi were just tier 1 players...
Listening to yourself, you are basically saying there are 10+ tier 1 Protoss and 3 tier 1 Terrans....why do you think that is?
No I am saying all tier1 terrans moved to WCS AM lor EU And what tier2 protoss beat tier1 terran in Code A, out of curiosity?
Zest vs Inno? Or is Zest tier 1 as well? Could you list out all your tier 1 protosses plz?
No he is not. That was kinda surprising, which I already written, clearly. Tier1: Dear, Rain, Classic, herO, sOs, Parting
And which terrans are tier 1? How about Yonghwa vs Flash? Or Flash isn't tier 1 terran?
No. Maru, Taeja, Polt, MMA and Inno are. Although not sure about Inno as his TvP is pretty bad and was even before the oracle patch. Flash and TY are up there also but not quite yet. Or not consistently enough. Also, differences between Tier1 and Tier2 are in realms of 3%-5% of advantage above the other one.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ibcRpE9.jpg)
), or Soulkey or sOs, or Life? He loses every time...
