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United States33492 Posts
TeamLiquid is looking for new StarCraft 2 writers to keep up its league coverage in 2014. We're looking for writers who can cover a variety of material, from daily recaps and previews to detailed focus pieces.Positions and Application ProcessStarCraft II WriterDescription: Writers are responsible for writing previews, recaps, features, and other written content for TeamLiquid's StarCraft II coverage. In the case of previews and recaps, it is crucial that they are written in a timely manner. Writers must be able to write both concisely and at length, depending on the situation. The ability to recognize and develop narratives is also a must. Tournaments with priority at present time are DreamHack, GSTL, IEM, Proleague and WCS with other tournaments being covered as manpower allows. Positions are not paid and are on a strictly voluntary basis. Passes for leagues covered will be provided. How to Apply: Send an application containing the following information to k.woo@teamliquid.net (Waxangel) - Your TeamLiquid.net ID and Skype information. For coordination purposes, we require writers to use Skype.
- Short introduction and relevant background information as it pertains to this position. Please do not send resumes.
- Preferred league or tournament to cover.
- Availability and desired workload.
- Applications are open indefinitely.
Two test writing assignments must also be completed. - Tournament Recap (around 600 words) - Example 1 - Example 2 - Example 3
Write a concise recap on the events of a single day in a major tournament. This is NOT a battle report assignment. Try to tell an interesting story about the tournament and players as a whole, rather than listing the details of several matches. The above examples are only references, feel free to be creative with your style. Any major tournament after October 1st, 2013 may be chosen as the subject.
- Freestyle Article (700-1000 words) - Example 1 - Example 2 - Example 3 - Example 4
Write an article on any StarCraft 2 esports related topic of your choice, including but not limited to players, teams, tournaments, and happenings. The theme of your article is entirely up to you, but please avoid excessive hero worship.
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This is awesome, definitely going to send in an application. I'm guessing if you aren't Korean or don't speak Korean it wouldn't really be all that realistic to cover Korean tournaments/leagues? Or is that not required?
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your Country52797 Posts
I will consider it, thanks for offering to the TL community.
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On December 11 2013 09:05 The_Templar wrote:
I will consider it, thanks for offering to the TL community.
I second this statement, very much a thank you for offering guys.
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Skills : (-: sdrawkcab etirw nac I
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Definitely the place to work for if you want to earn some real writing experience for your CV at a commendable place.
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your Country52797 Posts
hmm, I am looking through those examples and I don't see how I can possibly write that well O.O
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Definitely going to apply. maybe learning Chinese I can cover the China scene.
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How much are you guys paying and how?
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
Fuck yeah, my life is less godamn busy I can actually do this this time!
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France7248 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:21 istandwithmitt wrote:
How much are you guys paying and how?
Writers also need to know how to read.
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United States97276 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:21 istandwithmitt wrote:
How much are you guys paying and how?
Positions are not paid and are on a strictly voluntary basis.
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On December 11 2013 09:22 Yhamm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:21 istandwithmitt wrote:
How much are you guys paying and how? Writers also need to know how to read.
only thing TL provides is candle light and a dungeon
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Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair.
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
How warm is the dungeon?
I currently spend my free time in my garage, which fluctuates depending on our weather. It's currently in the 2-10 degrees celsius range at this time of year.
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I've thought about this (well, proofreading, if that counts along the lines of "writing," lol) for over a year and a half now, but never kicked myself hard enough to request it. I'll be PM'ing you shortly, Wax.
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On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair.
Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website.
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On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair.
If you don't want to work for free, you're more than welcome to not become a writer for TL.
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
It'd be invaluable experience if nothing else. Believe it or not it's a pain in the fucking ass to even write for free for publications over in my fair city, so any kind of chance to get your work out there is nice.
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair.
"I wanted to write articles for a niche gaming website, but I realized I would get no wages and complained about it in the thread where they offered the jobs."
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United States124 Posts
is there a deadline for applications?
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On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair.
That's how you build a real fucking community and not the fan base people call community right now. With dedication and not always expecting something back.
I never concidered myself a good enough writer to apply, but I thanks every single one of you who do it for free, because without that, TeamLiquid wouldn't still be here, years after.
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On December 11 2013 09:38 XXTN wrote:
is there a deadline for applications?
Can u write backwards?:-)
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:38 XXTN wrote:
is there a deadline for applications?
- Applications are open indefinitely.
On December 11 2013 09:41 govie wrote:Can u write backwards?:-)
what?
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On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website.
TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money.
This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run.
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Canada16217 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run.
it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation
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insert game is dying joke
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Please cut the exploitation crap. It is an honor and a privilege to write for Teamliquid; not to mention a testiment to one's way with words. If I weren't so awful at writing, I would definitely apply myself!
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37044 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation
Welcome to TL. At least once a year, something that was buried once, always comes back up to haunt us.
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
Aside from anything else, the exploitation angle is somewhat overplayed given that they clearly specify it's an unpaid position.
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On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation
It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports.
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On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run.
I guarantee you those sports and businesses would not pay their employees if they weren't legally obligated. A friend of my brother works at an internship. In Canada, interns cannot legally be paid below minimum wage, but this friend is paid less regardless (don't ask me why he doesn't leave). People don't pay their employees because it's the responsible and honest thing to do, they do it because they literally don't have a choice. If TL can get volunteers, they're going to take them.
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:48 Seeker wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation Welcome to TL. At least once a year, something that was buried once, comes back up to haunt us.
Brb bumping 'Elephant in the Room'
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On December 11 2013 08:55 Waxangel wrote:
The theme of your article is entirely up to you, but please avoid excessive hero worship.
How did TL have any writers during MVP/Clide era of GSL? All the articles did was hero worship those two!
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports.
I guess we as a community should shut this operation down since this is a democratic corporation and we all get a say in who does what and how money is distributed. Oh wait...
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Canada16217 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports.
something you have to realize is that because esports is so young not every job is paid in fact 90% of jobs in esports are probably not paid positions, TL is no different, people do this because they love the game in the hopes that one day people who do this work can be paid.
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports.
IMO you get a higher quality of output. Salaried sports writers frequently put out absolute fucking trash just to sell papers, because it's what's expected of them by those who pay their wages.
You don't have to get paid to do something you enjoy as a hobby or an aside. Plenty of musicians do it because they enjoy doing it and contributing to their own little niche community.
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How can you guys ever replace mensrea. `('.')'
As for istandwithmitt it's always been this way since day 1. Only reason you bitch and moan is because it's expanded from a community website. In either case hopefully we find a few good chaps. If you're still in high school and want something for your resume. This is a good starting point.
On December 11 2013 09:51 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports. something you have to realize is that because esports is so young not every job is paid in fact 90% of jobs in esports are probably not paid positions, TL is no different, people do this because they love the game in the hopes that one day people who do this work can be paid.
yep, there are a lot of volunteers who don't get crap. welcome to the wonderful world of esports and reality.
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On December 11 2013 09:51 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports. something you have to realize is that because esports is so young not every job is paid in fact 90% of jobs in esports are probably not paid positions, TL is no different, people do this because they love the game in the hopes that one day people who do this work can be paid.
So because most esports positions are unpaid they all should be? What are you trying to say? TL obviously has money: they maintain SC2 & Dota2 teams yet they can't afford to pay their writers anything?
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On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run.
The team revenue is mostly separate from the site and provided more by the sponsors than the ads. The money the site makes is used to maintain the site and pay the full-time employees working out of the TL office.
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:55 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:51 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports. something you have to realize is that because esports is so young not every job is paid in fact 90% of jobs in esports are probably not paid positions, TL is no different, people do this because they love the game in the hopes that one day people who do this work can be paid. So because most esports positions are unpaid they all should be? What are you trying to say? TL obviously has money: they maintain SC2 & Dota2 teams yet they can't afford to pay their writers anything?
Are you actually applying for a position or are you just complaining?
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On December 11 2013 09:57 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:55 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:51 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports. something you have to realize is that because esports is so young not every job is paid in fact 90% of jobs in esports are probably not paid positions, TL is no different, people do this because they love the game in the hopes that one day people who do this work can be paid. So because most esports positions are unpaid they all should be? What are you trying to say? TL obviously has money: they maintain SC2 & Dota2 teams yet they can't afford to pay their writers anything? Are you actually applying for a position or are you just complaining?
Obviously complaining for the sake of it.
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France7248 Posts
On December 11 2013 09:55 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:51 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:48 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:45 NovemberstOrm wrote:On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run. it feels like everytime applications goes up someone has to bring up this conversation It's because it's an embarrassment to the community, the scene, & the idea of esports. something you have to realize is that because esports is so young not every job is paid in fact 90% of jobs in esports are probably not paid positions, TL is no different, people do this because they love the game in the hopes that one day people who do this work can be paid. So because most esports positions are unpaid they all should be? What are you trying to say? TL obviously has money: they maintain SC2 & Dota2 teams yet they can't afford to pay their writers anything?
why the hell do you have to complain? nobody force you to be a writer for free. If some people want to help the community and don't care that they are not paid, why is it your problem?
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Holy shit, everyone's talking about internships & experience lmao.
The issue is that TL is a money-making business that despite maintaining esports teams, an online store, & a pay-in subscription to the site. Yet when it comes to people who actually produce content for their website it's a "volunteer" position.
It's incredibly unprofessional & reflects poorly on TL & the scene as a whole & if you can find some way to defend through your warped ideas of passion or experience, then you're probably smart enough to take TL up on their writing offer.
Well, see ya!
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On December 11 2013 10:00 istandwithmitt wrote:
Holy shit, everyone's talking about internships & experience lmao.
The issue is that TL is a money-making business that despite maintaining esports teams, an online store, & a pay-in subscription to the site. Yet when it comes to people who actually produce content for their website it's a "volunteer" position.
It's incredibly unprofessional & reflects poorly on TL & the scene as a whole & if you can find some way to defend through your warped ideas of passion or experience, then you're probably smart enough to take TL up on their writing offer.
Well, see ya!
You're such an ass omg.
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If there only would be a section for german articles on TL...
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On December 11 2013 10:00 istandwithmitt wrote:
Holy shit, everyone's talking about internships & experience lmao.
The issue is that TL is a money-making business that despite maintaining esports teams, an online store, & a pay-in subscription to the site. Yet when it comes to people who actually produce content for their website it's a "volunteer" position.
It's incredibly unprofessional & reflects poorly on TL & the scene as a whole & if you can find some way to defend through your warped ideas of passion or experience, then you're probably smart enough to take TL up on their writing offer.
Well, see ya!
If you don't want how the system works then just leave.
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2774 Posts
I presume the application process is the same if you want to become a writer for Dota 2 on TL?
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Get em stimilant, now is your time to shine
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I read that TL is hiring writers, shut my eyes, and pause for a moment. From my right shoulder a voice says "Plus up on all your SC2 knowledge, start laddering, and start writing for the scene; if only on blogs." I open my eyes, look over, and see nothing. Suddenly from my left shoulder: "Nevermind all that! Just keep drinking and if you want to write, do it for the college paper. It'll look better when you transfer." I look to my left and see nothing. I'm having trouble placing just which dialogue came from the devil and which from an angel. I take pride in being a product of the American nineties, so I search my soul for a sliver of that era's sage wisdom. A high towel appears in my mind's eye and says "I'll do both!"
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I have one question. Are writers given access to 'pay to view' tournaments? I.e. if a writer were to write the hotsix cup that just finished for example, is he/she expected to watch the event live or pay for vods him/herself or is there compensation in that regard?
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Canada16217 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:14 mishimaBeef wrote:
I have one question. Are writers given access to 'pay to view' tournaments? I.e. if a writer were to write the hotsix cup that just finished for example, is he/she expected to watch the event live or pay for vods him/herself or is there compensation in that regard?
Passes for leagues covered will be provided.
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On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. You make me puke. Go away.
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 I wanna cover the proleague and such but I don't know how well I'd do with all the work Univeersity is throwing away at me .
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I'd love to do this if I had more time to watch events. Unfortunately that's no guarantee. :/
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On December 11 2013 10:00 istandwithmitt wrote:
Holy shit, everyone's talking about internships & experience lmao.
The issue is that TL is a money-making business that despite maintaining esports teams, an online store, & a pay-in subscription to the site. Yet when it comes to people who actually produce content for their website it's a "volunteer" position.
It's incredibly unprofessional & reflects poorly on TL & the scene as a whole & if you can find some way to defend through your warped ideas of passion or experience, then you're probably smart enough to take TL up on their writing offer.
Well, see ya!
It's okay, you still don't get it.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37044 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:00 istandwithmitt wrote:
Holy shit, everyone's talking about internships & experience lmao.
The issue is that TL is a money-making business that despite maintaining esports teams, an online store, & a pay-in subscription to the site. Yet when it comes to people who actually produce content for their website it's a "volunteer" position.
It's incredibly unprofessional & reflects poorly on TL & the scene as a whole & if you can find some way to defend through your warped ideas of passion or experience, then you're probably smart enough to take TL up on their writing offer.
Well, see ya!
See ya! 
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While TL is under no obligation to pay any of their writers, lets not kid around the fact that they are in fact taking advantage of their position. They know they can get away with not paying anything because they know that there are a bunch of people out there who are willing to do it for free. If hypothetically, nobody applied for these jobs, you can be sure that they would offer something more (maybe pay or some other benefits). Instead, we have supply of willing writers > demand and hence we're in this position here.
I don't believe that TL is in position where they couldn't possibly afford to pay any of their writers. That might have been true when they were a small community with a small number of hardcore members but not anymore.
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Canada8159 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:28 KivTM wrote:
While TL is under no obligation to pay any of their writers, lets not kid around the fact that they are in fact taking advantage of their position. They know they can get away with not paying anything because they know that there are a bunch of people out there who are willing to do it for free. If hypothetically, nobody applied for these jobs, you can be sure that they would offer something more (maybe pay or some other benefits). Instead, we have supply of willing writers > demand and hence we're in this position here.
I don't believe that TL is in position where they couldn't possibly afford to pay any of their writers. That might have been true when they were a small community with a small number of hardcore members but not anymore.
I wasn't aware that you were the payroll supervisor of TL
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So it only took half a page for someone to shit up the thread by bringing the old "omg tl doesnt pay its writers yet is clearly rolling in dollarz and is exploiting the goodwill of starcraft fans" that happened last time, great
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On December 11 2013 09:43 istandwithmitt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:29 Faust852 wrote:On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Yeh, how dare they use ad to pay servers costs for such a big forum/website. TL maintains two fairly large & star-studded esports team. Obviously there's money. This is just the most embarrassing & novice part of esports that the community is exploited because it's the cheapest option. Any legitimate sport or business would pay its writers because their work deserves pay and because their work is used to generate revenue. TL is taking advantage of the enthusiasm of people to avoid shilling out any money to the people that make it run.
`
Such bullshit and i will explain why. U can put any event in history in a negative or positive context, depending from which side u look at it. The glass is half full or half empty.
U see a TL that doesnt pay there writers (which i call hobbyists) and spends it on esportsstuff and players. Pitchforks!! I see them facilitating a community where peeps with the same interests come together for free. I can watch there proteam for free, which is formerly of another organisation. I can watch different tl-players and read articles for free. Thx to teamliquid i get free stuff! But maybe u want paperview, with just a fraction of the content, a samplesize community, coerier pt 10, no more teaja's, fluffs.
Plz go and be ashamed. If u dont like it here, just leave. It isnt that hard u know.
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I would really like to apply for this but I know I wouldn't be able to keep up with the workload. Already managing a writing society, working as a journalist, and studying for a degree...
Unless "minimal" counts for the "desired workload"...
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:28 KivTM wrote:
While TL is under no obligation to pay any of their writers, lets not kid around the fact that they are in fact taking advantage of their position. They know they can get away with not paying anything because they know that there are a bunch of people out there who are willing to do it for free. If hypothetically, nobody applied for these jobs, you can be sure that they would offer something more (maybe pay or some other benefits). Instead, we have supply of willing writers > demand and hence we're in this position here.
I don't believe that TL is in position where they couldn't possibly afford to pay any of their writers. That might have been true when they were a small community with a small number of hardcore members but not anymore.
If nobody applied for these positions, a few people would probably step up and work more to cover the lost space, but gradually the writing on TL would dry up and coverage would become less and less. Actually.
I really regret that we let MLG get away with all their bullshit in 2011, because now everybody thinks esports is an industry where everyone is making out like bandits.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off!
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I'll be submitting my application next week after exams.
Thanks for the opportunity, TL. Have been wondering if there would be anymore positions opened.
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Estonia4644 Posts
someone's been pocketing my ESPORTS dollars
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So I assume I get a 6 figure salary when I get the job right?
:D
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your Country52797 Posts
I really tried writing something, realized I was absolutely awful at stringing multiple sentences together, and gave up.
I'm sorry . I will contribute to TL in every way possible but my writing skills are just bad.
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:54 Liltwizzler wrote:
So I assume I get a 6 figure salary when I get the job right?
:D
In ESPORTS money yes
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On December 11 2013 10:55 The_Templar wrote:I really tried writing something, realized I was absolutely awful at stringing multiple sentences together, and gave up. I'm sorry . I will contribute to TL in every way possible but my writing skills are just bad.
Dude, u can still write articles, guides and stuff. Only difference being peeps dont bitch about so much becuz it aint official (+) and most of the time u dont get FP coverage (-). The people will still thank you for your efforts and even discuss everything inside and out (even if the guides/analysis u post are mediocre, believe me i know my stuff about mediocre).
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
My animal castration / illegal arms dealing / vampirism already pays me enough that I don't need to be paid by TL.
Getting league passes, extra forums, and a fancy icon that makes me feel superior on an internet message board are compensation enough!
also now I get to brutally judge you applicants muwahaha
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:57 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 10:55 The_Templar wrote:I really tried writing something, realized I was absolutely awful at stringing multiple sentences together, and gave up. I'm sorry . I will contribute to TL in every way possible but my writing skills are just bad. Dude, u can still write articles, guides and stuff. Only difference being peeps dont bitch about so much becuz it aint official (+) and most of the time u dont get FP coverage (-). The people will still thank you for your efforts and even discuss everything inside and out.
My writing is sufficiently bad that I will stick to battle reports and live reports in that field
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On December 11 2013 10:55 The_Templar wrote:I really tried writing something, realized I was absolutely awful at stringing multiple sentences together, and gave up. I'm sorry . I will contribute to TL in every way possible but my writing skills are just bad.
If you want to get better at writing you just have to practice! Just like anything else, the more you do it, the better at it you become. I would suggest just every night before going to sleep, write some of your thoughts down on how the day went or whatever you feel like writing. It's really easy to develop your own unique style that way. People aren't magically born as good writers and suddenly are off writing novels and poems and essays, it takes work as well as practice just as you would any other skill. Don't be intimidated!
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off!
it's a pretty slow forum
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On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off!
Write for Proleague you'd be great
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 11 2013 11:01 ArTiFaKs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 10:55 The_Templar wrote:I really tried writing something, realized I was absolutely awful at stringing multiple sentences together, and gave up. I'm sorry . I will contribute to TL in every way possible but my writing skills are just bad. If you want to get better at writing you just have to practice! Just like anything else, the more you do it, the better at it you become. I would suggest just every night before going to sleep, write some of your thoughts down on how the day went or whatever you feel like writing. It's really easy to develop your own unique style that way. People aren't magically born as good writers and suddenly are off writing novels and poems and essays, it takes work as well as practice just as you would any other skill. Don't be intimidated!
It's not just writing though. I find it hard to express my thoughts at all. This has been an issue for me my whole life. I get around it by making stuff that points people towards a viewpoint similar to mine
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TL writers have never been paid so I've never been interested, however, with the great number of bright people that are involved in the community (maybe over exadurated, maybe not) TL has always been able to find pretty good writers.
I think the case will be the same here. Good luck to the applicants, and thank you for the sacrifices you make to provide coverage during your busy lives.
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I love that they're doing this again. hopefully this brings new talent into the industry.
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On December 11 2013 10:46 tree.hugger wrote:
If nobody applied for these positions, a few people would probably step up and work more to cover the lost space, but gradually the writing on TL would dry up and coverage would become less and less. Actually.
I really regret that we let MLG get away with all their bullshit in 2011, because now everybody thinks esports is an industry where everyone is making out like bandits.
Having written for a few eSports sites in the past, I can tell you it has been that way for a much longer time than that (going on perhaps 12ish years...I've been around too long -_-). MLG simply exacerbated the methods, and people slowly caught on.
What started out as a simple way to contribute to your favorite site, forum, or team, turned many talented people into cynics. Slowly, those like myself, doing it out of the love of writing and eSports, grew more into the business side behind the scenes, and saw how things operated. While I was lucky enough to eventually work myself into being monetarily compensated, I know far too many writers that had no such luck.
I used to have spreadsheets regarding some of the financials behind some of the sites I worked for; I'm quite regretting that I didn't keep the effort to continue to store them.
Disclaimer: I'm not endorsing/supporting a theory regarding TL having excessive income or that they may be like sites of the past, where only the top members came away with money. I'm simply expressing that it's possible, and visitors perhaps overcompensate what servers/infrastructure actually cost, and undervalue the income that sites like TL generate.
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On December 11 2013 10:46 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 10:28 KivTM wrote:
While TL is under no obligation to pay any of their writers, lets not kid around the fact that they are in fact taking advantage of their position. They know they can get away with not paying anything because they know that there are a bunch of people out there who are willing to do it for free. If hypothetically, nobody applied for these jobs, you can be sure that they would offer something more (maybe pay or some other benefits). Instead, we have supply of willing writers > demand and hence we're in this position here.
I don't believe that TL is in position where they couldn't possibly afford to pay any of their writers. That might have been true when they were a small community with a small number of hardcore members but not anymore. If nobody applied for these positions, a few people would probably step up and work more to cover the lost space, but gradually the writing on TL would dry up and coverage would become less and less. Actually. I really regret that we let MLG get away with all their bullshit in 2011, because now everybody thinks esports is an industry where everyone is making out like bandits.
Are you saying TL is not a profitable business or that they wouldn't be profitable if they paid writers?
(serious questions btw because I always assumed that TL with all its revenue streams was doing quite well for itself but maybe I'm wrong?)
Having written for a few eSports sites in the past, I can tell you it has been that way for a much longer time than that (going on perhaps 12ish years...I've been around too long -_-). MLG simply exacerbated the methods, and people slowly caught on.
What started out as a simple way to contribute to your favorite site, forum, or team, turned many talented people into cynics. Slowly, those like myself, doing it out of the love of writing and eSports, grew more into the business side behind the scenes, and saw how things operated. While I was lucky enough to eventually work myself into being monetarily compensated, I know far too many writers that had no such luck.
I used to have spreadsheets regarding some of the financials behind some of the sites I worked for; I'm quite regretting that I didn't keep the effort to continue to store them.
Disclaimer: I'm not endorsing/supporting a theory regarding TL having excessive income or that they may be like sites of the past, where only the top members came away with money. I'm simply expressing that it's possible, and visitors perhaps overcompensate what servers/infrastructure actually cost, and undervalue the income that sites like TL generate.
I think this guy hit the nail on the head.
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So now I know what to do with my time after my finals tomorrow. Hopefully I'll get accepted!
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Vancouver14381 Posts
I think people are confusing Team Liquid the team and Teamliquid.net the community site. They are separate entities with close ties but that doesn't necessarily mean the income or sponsorships for the team carry over to the site.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On December 11 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! it's a pretty slow forum
Yeah, not too many bright bulbs in there.
On December 11 2013 11:03 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! Write for Proleague you'd be great
Every recap will compare people to Bisu.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 11 2013 11:56 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! it's a pretty slow forum Yeah, not too many bright bulbs in there. Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 11:03 Dodgin wrote:On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! Write for Proleague you'd be great Every recap will compare people to Bisu.
Even shine?
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I like that TeamLiquid still has a volunteer community staff to do coverage for their games. We live in a very different landscape for StarCraft and esports, but TeamLiquid was really built on the back of volunteer writers and admins who really liked the community and StarCraft. There's definitely the 'spirit' of TL that allows the site to continually be a hub for discussion for over a decade.
The structure that TL has set up is that you will be recognized if you contribute greatly to the community. Having a paid structure removes some of that spirit, since their's a barrier between 'staff member' and 'community member'. The way I look at it, the community does a lot of the heavy lifting and the very few paid staff TL has takes care of supplying the platform. Perhaps the most idea model would be something like the Steam Workshop, where other community members can 'tip' contributing community members for their work (kind of like TL+ but...real moneyz) but that's definitely a wild dream, and kind of removes doing things for the love of the game.
It really sucks that "for esports" or "for the love of the game" have been dragged through the mud the past couple years. I think they're still legitimate reasons to contribute and create, but as esports has found more commercial success everything gets messy. I think we're lucky that TL hasn't lost that.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Bisu vs Shine was one of the better/funnier games of 2013
BisuDagger should write about it as his application
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On December 11 2013 11:49 JBright wrote:
I think people are confusing Team Liquid the team and Teamliquid.net the community site. They are separate entities with close ties but that doesn't necessarily mean the income or sponsorships for the team carry over to the site.
It definitely doesn't help that they're exactly the same name.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On December 11 2013 11:57 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 11:56 BisuDagger wrote:On December 11 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! it's a pretty slow forum Yeah, not too many bright bulbs in there. On December 11 2013 11:03 Dodgin wrote:On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! Write for Proleague you'd be great Every recap will compare people to Bisu. Even shine?
The guy he's undefeated against in SC2?
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 11 2013 12:01 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 11:57 stuchiu wrote:On December 11 2013 11:56 BisuDagger wrote:On December 11 2013 11:03 opterown wrote:On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! it's a pretty slow forum Yeah, not too many bright bulbs in there. On December 11 2013 11:03 Dodgin wrote:On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! Write for Proleague you'd be great Every recap will compare people to Bisu. Even shine? The guy he's undefeated against in SC2?
Even Labyrinth?
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On December 11 2013 09:22 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:21 istandwithmitt wrote:
How much are you guys paying and how?
and here I was hoping someone would say "You get paid in ESPORTS dollars, from which you can spend Here!"
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On December 11 2013 12:00 lichter wrote:
Bisu vs Shine was one of the better/funnier games of 2013
BisuDagger should write about it as his application
He should be forced to and write about it affected the Church of BSports.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On December 11 2013 12:13 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 12:00 lichter wrote:
Bisu vs Shine was one of the better/funnier games of 2013
BisuDagger should write about it as his application He should be forced to and write about it affected the Church of BSports.
I would write how Shine's defeat illegitimatized the game. A game where Bisu can beat shine clearly lacks the necessary mechanics to cheese and defeat a better opponent. Therefore Bisu returned to SC1 waiting for his nemisis to return too.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
It was surprisingly a late game base trade
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i wrote the first out of the two articles, yet am worried its not good enough :/
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United States23455 Posts
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Canada16217 Posts
On December 11 2013 13:21 Fionn wrote:
I might apply
sup wow
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if ur terran u get 500 esport dollar stipend
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On December 11 2013 13:22 NovemberstOrm wrote:sup wow
Just when we thought him dead. He teases us with false hope.
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If I had any writing skills I'd apply but well I don't. gl finding people
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This seems like a good opportunity for people getting into journalism as their career to practice and master their craft. As big of a community TL is, you would be getting plenty of feedback on your work. I would think of it like this, they are paying for passes for you to watch the league you are covering. You get all the nice incentives of having that pass FOR FREE. Writing an article would just be more of a professional way for you to discuss the games or whatever, the way you would discuss it with your friends the next day. Not sure why people want to be so pessimistic on the subject =\
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United States23455 Posts
Well I just applied. I think if you got paid to write about Starcraft to get published on TL that would just not be fair.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 11 2013 14:07 jogamijo wrote:
This seems like a good opportunity for people getting into journalism as their career to practice and master their craft. As big of a community TL is, you would be getting plenty of feedback on your work. I would think of it like this, they are paying for passes for you to watch the league you are covering. You get all the nice incentives of having that pass FOR FREE. Writing an article would just be more of a professional way for you to discuss the games or whatever, the way you would discuss it with your friends the next day. Not sure why people want to be so pessimistic on the subject =\
i blame the economy
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Canada13389 Posts
On December 11 2013 13:21 Fionn wrote:
I might apply
someone be back! :O
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On December 11 2013 12:30 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 12:13 StarStruck wrote:On December 11 2013 12:00 lichter wrote:
Bisu vs Shine was one of the better/funnier games of 2013
BisuDagger should write about it as his application He should be forced to and write about it affected the Church of BSports. I would write how Shine's defeat illegitimatized the game. A game where Bisu can beat shine clearly lacks the necessary mechanics to cheese and defeat a better opponent. Therefore Bisu returned to SC1 waiting for his nemisis to return too.
That lack of responses means I've nailed the right topic to make TL headlines.
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I wanted to apply last year but didn't end up doing it. Despite my lack of posts, I've actually been following the sc2 scene and community for several years.
I'm also a current editor for a newspaper and a third-year journalism student so I think I have decent writing credentials. Time is the main thing but if you love something enough, you'll make the time and I love sc2!
We'll see what happens. Hope to apply after exams next week.
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Canada16217 Posts
On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off!
calender staff don't get forums? ehehehe
+ Show Spoiler +
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 11 2013 14:40 Radicalness wrote:
I wanted to apply last year but didn't end up doing it. Despite my lack of posts, I've actually been following the sc2 scene and community for several years.
I'm also a current editor for a newspaper and a third-year journalism student so I think I have decent writing credentials. Time is the main thing but if you love something enough, you'll make the time and I love sc2!
We'll see what happens. Hope to apply after exams next week.
Christelle got pen'd when he had 11 posts
I doubt anyone is going to beat that record
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Heh don't listen to the writers try to defend their no salary policy! We all know lichter is taking in six figures in esports dollas under the table. Yeah this stuff goes on right under your noses. I've seen it. They will come for me, but it is not too late for you. Do not be silenced!!!!!!!!!
P.S. We never landed on the moon, aliens built the pyramids, 9/11 was an inside job etc. etc
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I have to be paid more than that if L'sTLCMAT has prizes of billions of esports dollars out of my own e-pocket
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On December 11 2013 14:46 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 10:46 BisuDagger wrote:
Maybe I can finally get accepted into the ever so elite SC2 staff forums! I'm going to write my ass off! calender staff don't get forums? ehehehe + Show Spoiler +
I get other forums. No need for me to stick my nose in places I'm not needed.
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On December 11 2013 10:00 istandwithmitt wrote:
Holy shit, everyone's talking about internships & experience lmao.
The issue is that TL is a money-making business that despite maintaining esports teams, an online store, & a pay-in subscription to the site. Yet when it comes to people who actually produce content for their website it's a "volunteer" position.
It's incredibly unprofessional & reflects poorly on TL & the scene as a whole & if you can find some way to defend through your warped ideas of passion or experience, then you're probably smart enough to take TL up on their writing offer.
Well, see ya!
edit: nevermind
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On December 11 2013 14:53 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 14:40 Radicalness wrote:
I wanted to apply last year but didn't end up doing it. Despite my lack of posts, I've actually been following the sc2 scene and community for several years.
I'm also a current editor for a newspaper and a third-year journalism student so I think I have decent writing credentials. Time is the main thing but if you love something enough, you'll make the time and I love sc2!
We'll see what happens. Hope to apply after exams next week. Christelle got pen'd when he had 11 posts I doubt anyone is going to beat that record
Good to know. I think that shows the professionalism of the TL staff as opposed to some gaming forums that can be kind of clique oriented in nature.
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On December 11 2013 15:01 lichter wrote:
I have to be paid more than that if L'sTLCMAT has prizes of billions of esports dollars out of my own e-pocket
Which begs the question. Where ARE all those esports dollars coming from? Have you been dealing edrugs on the side?
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wait. so if i wanted to write for WCS NA, then for my first submission, can i recap a WCS NA group? it says not to go into details of games, but in one of the examples its recaping a gsl group and going over the games.
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On December 11 2013 14:18 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 14:07 jogamijo wrote:
This seems like a good opportunity for people getting into journalism as their career to practice and master their craft. As big of a community TL is, you would be getting plenty of feedback on your work. I would think of it like this, they are paying for passes for you to watch the league you are covering. You get all the nice incentives of having that pass FOR FREE. Writing an article would just be more of a professional way for you to discuss the games or whatever, the way you would discuss it with your friends the next day. Not sure why people want to be so pessimistic on the subject =\ i blame the economy
Thanks a lot Obama
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 11 2013 15:54 partydude89 wrote:
wait. so if i wanted to write for WCS NA, then for my first submission, can i recap a WCS NA group? it says not to go into details of games, but in one of the examples its recaping a gsl group and going over the games.
Of course you have to describe the game, but it's also about context and the stories behind the games. Were they important games? What were the consequences? Is there a rivalry between the players? Did we see a new never before seen build order? Where is the matchup right now and what does it entail for the match? And if possible, a little analysis of the games, not just descriptions. Etc etc etc
On December 11 2013 15:52 Yorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 15:01 lichter wrote:
I have to be paid more than that if L'sTLCMAT has prizes of billions of esports dollars out of my own e-pocket Which begs the question. Where ARE all those esports dollars coming from? Have you been dealing edrugs on the side?
I already revealed it in the thread man you should read
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On December 11 2013 15:54 partydude89 wrote:
wait. so if i wanted to write for WCS NA, then for my first submission, can i recap a WCS NA group? it says not to go into details of games, but in one of the examples its recaping a gsl group and going over the games.
You have to write about the games but come up with a lead and come at it from an angle rather than writing a "game story" ie: "They spawned on Lost Temple. Player X took the lead by harassing with dropship. That lead caused him to gain an insurmountable lead and he won game one eight minutes later with a timing attack."
Instead say: "In addition to being the first game of Group X in Y Tournament, the match had additional meaning. It would break the back-and-forth 13-13 career series tie between Player Y and Player Z and set the tone for the rest of the tournament."
Those are just some hypothetical examples and an excuse for me to bring up Lost Temple XD
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If this keeps up, we'll have to start calling this the TeamLiquid Endowment for the Arts! Way to encourage writing prowess amongst nerds. Carry on!
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On December 11 2013 15:52 Yorkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 15:01 lichter wrote:
I have to be paid more than that if L'sTLCMAT has prizes of billions of esports dollars out of my own e-pocket Which begs the question. Where ARE all those esports dollars coming from? Have you been dealing edrugs on the side?
I just wanted to throw in that the mastermind behind the huge match fixing scandal in Bw was never caught.
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Perhaps a good compromise would be a donation box at the bottom of each article linking to each individual writer's paypal?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
As long as donations to me go straight to YugiOh
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
Gl guys love the work you guys put out would like to try but well I suck at writing :D
And reading what that Istandwithmitt guys posts make my head hurt D: its so stupid
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dadgem
User was warned for this post
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Austria24422 Posts
How did this turn into a debate on whether or not writers should be paid? I mean, sure give me your money folks but that's not why any of us signed up
This is a great opportunity for anyone who likes to write articles and possibly wants to get into journalism. Because a) editors are really professional and do a damn good job which is probably the most important way to get feedback, b) you get to face a numbers of different challenges, c) you get a lot of community feedback. So go for it yalls!
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Newspapers are also doing what they can to pay their freelance writers as little as possible, and I think it is wrong.
Thera are 2 models I think, one is to actually pay like 50€ per article, and let there be a tough competition of who gets the writing gigs, pretty much like the casters. Totally sensible as TL is a big enough site imo.
The 2nd model is to pay the writers in exposure so that they can market themselves and build their careers as e-sports journalists/streamers/players/casters/whatever. I doubt day9 is making much doing dailies directly, his hard work gives casting gigs, and maybe some product placement (heartstone?)
Forum honor might be enough for some, but as many others I am not totally convinced by relying on volentary work in a professional organization. As an academically trained musician I am very concerned about these grey areas.
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Northern Ireland26094 Posts
How stable a currency is the humble E-Sports dollar?
If we just have to be paid, it would be acceptable for me to be salaried in E-Sport dollars for sure.
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The front page is littered in debate as to whether or not this is worth it to do for free. Writing for TL helped me get a job in content marketing. If not that, the experience of writing to specification changed my outlook on writing completely.
I highly recommend it -- if you're prepared to put time into it, it'll make you a better writer and cleaner journalist. I was an amateur poet when I started. Now I can do a press release in 30 minutes and write a decent tournament recap from the results on the TL wiki page.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I think much of the disagreement about this being an unpaid position stems from the fact that while some people consider this a job, most if not all the TL writers consider it a hobby. Anyone can write articles and post them on TL. The only difference is that the stuff staffed writers do gets featured by TL. It's basically just a blog about esports endorsed by TL. It's a part time gig that we all enjoy doing. No one gets fired if we don't meet a deadline or suddenly need to take a break. It's not like Waxy keeps us in a basement or something.
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Isn't it obvious? TL can't pay their writers because of huge server costs, caused by the high amount of people complaining about TL not paying their writers. 
But well, as some ppl said before, it's sad, that this thread ran off topic. (including my post)
Edit: btw. VERY good point @ Lichter
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Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer?
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On December 11 2013 19:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How did this turn into a debate on whether or not writers should be paid? I mean, sure give me your money folks but that's not why any of us signed up
This is a great opportunity for anyone who likes to write articles and possibly wants to get into journalism. Because a) editors are really professional and do a damn good job which is probably the most important way to get feedback, b) you get to face a numbers of different challenges, c) you get a lot of community feedback. So go for it yalls!
There a rumors and whispers about the first initiation procedureweeks and trials. are they all true?
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working for free is so passé. specially when you need to go through trials & tribulations to get the position.
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Austria24422 Posts
On December 11 2013 21:00 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 19:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How did this turn into a debate on whether or not writers should be paid? I mean, sure give me your money folks but that's not why any of us signed up
This is a great opportunity for anyone who likes to write articles and possibly wants to get into journalism. Because a) editors are really professional and do a damn good job which is probably the most important way to get feedback, b) you get to face a numbers of different challenges, c) you get a lot of community feedback. So go for it yalls! There a rumors and whispers about the first initiation procedureweeks and trials. are they all true?
That depends on what those rumors include
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On December 11 2013 21:07 esdf wrote:
working for free is so passé. specially when you need to go through trials & tribulations to get the position.
No one holds u back on writing guides and posting them on the forum, just so u can share. U trials or the only trial is the feedback u get from the commmunity
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Germany25657 Posts
On December 11 2013 20:50 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer?
Sort of, if you write long enough you will eventually become part of the staff, and when that happens TL+ will be unlocked for you by default! 
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On December 11 2013 21:17 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 21:07 esdf wrote:
working for free is so passé. specially when you need to go through trials & tribulations to get the position. No one holds u back on writing guides and posting them on the forum, just so u can share. U trials or the only trial is the feedback u get from the commmunity
I'm aware of that, but writing on forums is once in a while. This is a position that requires constant involvement & coverage, at times even on a day-to-day basis (guys covering GSL, etc). You're giving up a lot of your free time for nothing in return (aside for the love of the community). TeamLiquid is a business, they earn money, they pay their players, management, etc. It's only fair that they pay you (or whoever else gets the position) as well. After all, you'll be doing some serious work.
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I want to be a TL-banner one day, loads more fun then writing. KadaverBB should me lots of times how that stuff works. With great power comes great responsibility he said, haha!
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Just sent in my application
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
You guys shouldnt be suprised. The paid/unpaid debate happens every time TL posts articles like this. Check the old threads. This one is way down in bans comparatively.
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On December 11 2013 22:10 BisuDagger wrote:
You guys shouldnt be suprised. The paid/unpaid debate happens every time TL posts articles like this. Check the old threads. This one is way down in bans comparatively.
My first gig as a writer wasn't paid but I ended up getting a paid position because of it so it's a good way to start. I'd like to do this too as there isn't any call to write about SC2 at my current job.
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How much esports dollars I earn for every article?
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Canada5565 Posts
On December 11 2013 22:40 Shana wrote:
How much esports dollars I earn for every article?
10
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They should at least pay them in TL+ months. It's the only currency on this forum anyway.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On December 11 2013 23:00 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
They should at least pay them in TL+ months. It's the only currency on this forum anyway.
It comes with TL+ forever and league passes so I'm really not sure how this is 'unpaid'
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Austria24422 Posts
On December 11 2013 21:31 KadaverBB wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 20:50 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer? Sort of, if you write long enough you will eventually become part of the staff, and when that happens TL+ will be unlocked for you by default!
Woah woah, what now? I can't access TL+
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your Country52797 Posts
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One of the biggest reasons why i spend a lot of my time here lurking at TL is to discuss competitive games specifically sc2,BW and dota passionately with other people who are equally passionate and sometimes TL folks who has passion beyond comprehension more known as "MAXIMUM PASSION" e.g. (Bisudagger/Wintex).
I wouldn't mind writing for TL since why would you not discuss about starcraft. lol I would want to try this but i'm not too confident with my writing skills. Is it fine to try sending an application ? i'm a little scared since i might disappoint some people lol . And i can imagine that it must be so hard for TL writers since people reading the articles they made came from different parts around the globe.
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How long does the process take? Once we send in an application, will we hear about the position within a week or a month or is it not finite?
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
On December 11 2013 23:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 21:31 KadaverBB wrote:On December 11 2013 20:50 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer? Sort of, if you write long enough you will eventually become part of the staff, and when that happens TL+ will be unlocked for you by default! Woah woah, what now? I can't access TL+
Way to go KadaverBB. Now the writers feel entitled to TL+. Next you'll reveal the TL++ forums.
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On December 11 2013 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 23:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 11 2013 21:31 KadaverBB wrote:On December 11 2013 20:50 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer? Sort of, if you write long enough you will eventually become part of the staff, and when that happens TL+ will be unlocked for you by default! Woah woah, what now? I can't access TL+ Next you'll reveal the TL++ forums.
Quoting this before the obvious TLCIA cover up happens.
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Is there a deadline to apply? I'd rather not apply right now until I can have access to a computer at home. I've been mostly on my phone on TL for months.
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It once was said that its not about the money, it's about sending a message. The big J couldn't have been more correct, especially when it comes to something like this. It's not about getting paid, it's about contributing to the community that we all love.
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On December 11 2013 19:36 DarkLordOlli wrote:
How did this turn into a debate on whether or not writers should be paid? I mean, sure give me your money folks but that's not why any of us signed up
This is a great opportunity for anyone who likes to write articles and possibly wants to get into journalism. Because a) editors are really professional and do a damn good job which is probably the most important way to get feedback, b) you get to face a numbers of different challenges, c) you get a lot of community feedback. So go for it yalls!
true dat. stop crying, if you don't want to do it for free noone forces you go ahead and watch tournaments and read articles being written by others.
on topic: just applied, so recruit me waxangel, just do it!
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On December 11 2013 23:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 21:31 KadaverBB wrote:On December 11 2013 20:50 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer? Sort of, if you write long enough you will eventually become part of the staff, and when that happens TL+ will be unlocked for you by default! Woah woah, what now? I can't access TL+
i think new staff need to be manually added to TL+ list
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On December 11 2013 23:39 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 23:35 BisuDagger wrote:On December 11 2013 23:02 DarkLordOlli wrote:On December 11 2013 21:31 KadaverBB wrote:On December 11 2013 20:50 hellokitty[hk] wrote:
Can I earn TL+ for being an active writer? Sort of, if you write long enough you will eventually become part of the staff, and when that happens TL+ will be unlocked for you by default! Woah woah, what now? I can't access TL+ Next you'll reveal the TL++ forums. Quoting this before the obvious TLCIA cover up happens.
iluminati !!!
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On December 11 2013 09:49 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 08:55 Waxangel wrote:
The theme of your article is entirely up to you, but please avoid excessive hero worship.
How did TL have any writers during MVP/Clide era of GSL? All the articles did was hero worship those two!
Wait, is MVP/Clide era over? :O
Also, for the payment discussion, look at it was building a resume. Everything you do helps your future job search
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On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair.
Why does this always come up every time TL has a recruiting thread?
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 12 2013 03:16 TBone- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 09:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Well I guess we know where TL places its values.
The writers producing content for the community are volunteers while TL makes money from the hits they're providing via advertising. Seems fair. Why does this always come up every time TL has a recruiting thread?
ignore the troll and he goes away
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your Country52797 Posts
How many people are you planning to accept as writers?
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"Passes for leagues covered will be provided"
Does this mean that you will be able to travel to the event, or just for online watching?
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 12 2013 03:53 Zeweig wrote:
"Passes for leagues covered will be provided"
Does this mean that you will be able to travel to the event, or just for online watching?
I think it implies online passes.
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On December 12 2013 03:53 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 03:53 Zeweig wrote:
"Passes for leagues covered will be provided"
Does this mean that you will be able to travel to the event, or just for online watching? I think it implies online passes.
Thought so, just wanted to double check
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TLADT24920 Posts
I'm interested in this. Might apply but dunno if I can write as well as some of the articles I've read(minus several which needed a lot of editing ).
On December 11 2013 20:28 lichter wrote:
I think much of the disagreement about this being an unpaid position stems from the fact that while some people consider this a job, most if not all the TL writers consider it a hobby. Anyone can write articles and post them on TL. The only difference is that the stuff staffed writers do gets featured by TL. It's basically just a blog about esports endorsed by TL. It's a part time gig that we all enjoy doing. No one gets fired if we don't meet a deadline or suddenly need to take a break. It's not like Waxy keeps us in a basement or something.
rofl, you can tell the truth lichter. I'm sure most have read that blog about your umm "good" living conditions
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your Country52797 Posts
On December 12 2013 03:59 BigFan wrote:I'm interested in this. Might apply but dunno if I can write as well as some of the articles I've read(minus several which needed a lot of editing ). Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 20:28 lichter wrote:
I think much of the disagreement about this being an unpaid position stems from the fact that while some people consider this a job, most if not all the TL writers consider it a hobby. Anyone can write articles and post them on TL. The only difference is that the stuff staffed writers do gets featured by TL. It's basically just a blog about esports endorsed by TL. It's a part time gig that we all enjoy doing. No one gets fired if we don't meet a deadline or suddenly need to take a break. It's not like Waxy keeps us in a basement or something. rofl, you can tell the truth lichter. I'm sure most have read that blog about your umm "good" living conditions
wait if he lived in a basement how would he trade arms? I smell inconsistency in logic.
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Israel2209 Posts
On December 12 2013 03:53 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 03:53 Zeweig wrote:
"Passes for leagues covered will be provided"
Does this mean that you will be able to travel to the event, or just for online watching? I think it implies online passes.
In addition, if you are attending a live event there's a good chance a press pass could be arranged!
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On December 12 2013 05:17 Noam wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 03:53 The_Templar wrote:On December 12 2013 03:53 Zeweig wrote:
"Passes for leagues covered will be provided"
Does this mean that you will be able to travel to the event, or just for online watching? I think it implies online passes. In addition, if you are attending a live event there's a good chance a press pass could be arranged!
That sounds very cool!
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On December 12 2013 03:57 Zeweig wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 03:53 The_Templar wrote:On December 12 2013 03:53 Zeweig wrote:
"Passes for leagues covered will be provided"
Does this mean that you will be able to travel to the event, or just for online watching? I think it implies online passes. Thought so, just wanted to double check
If the TL staff favors you they might let you become privy to their secret guide to hitchhiking to Korea though.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 12 2013 03:26 The_Templar wrote:
How many people are you planning to accept as writers?
As many as are eligible.
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Does the amount of posts or time we've spent on TL matter to this process? I ask only because I've been watching and following along here for over 2 years, but never bothered to make an account because of the lack of time.
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 12 2013 09:30 IndoKoreanMuslim wrote:
Does the amount of posts or time we've spent on TL matter to this process? I ask only because I've been watching and following along here for over 2 years, but never bothered to make an account because of the lack of time.
No, Christelle had 0 when he applied.
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On December 11 2013 22:58 Xxio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2013 22:40 Shana wrote:
How much esports dollars I earn for every article? 10
That's way too much. slash their esports in half because they'll be worth more than bitcoins someday `(',')'
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I just applied. i really hope i can become a TL Writer. i love this place so fucking much and would love to give back.
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Are you gonna review past applications?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Since the application states that it should be about games from October 2013 to today, probably not
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Ah ok didnt notice that. Guess I'll have to write different articles.
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Should the sample articles be on TL or just plain text from drive or similar? Should we also have graphics/pictures, or is it just the text that is important?
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TLADT24920 Posts
On December 12 2013 04:01 The_Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2013 03:59 BigFan wrote:I'm interested in this. Might apply but dunno if I can write as well as some of the articles I've read(minus several which needed a lot of editing ). On December 11 2013 20:28 lichter wrote:
I think much of the disagreement about this being an unpaid position stems from the fact that while some people consider this a job, most if not all the TL writers consider it a hobby. Anyone can write articles and post them on TL. The only difference is that the stuff staffed writers do gets featured by TL. It's basically just a blog about esports endorsed by TL. It's a part time gig that we all enjoy doing. No one gets fired if we don't meet a deadline or suddenly need to take a break. It's not like Waxy keeps us in a basement or something. rofl, you can tell the truth lichter. I'm sure most have read that blog about your umm "good" living conditions wait if he lived in a basement how would he trade arms? I smell inconsistency in logic.
trade arms? :O
On December 16 2013 10:01 cam connor wrote:
what about bw writers
I'm guessing bw writers aren't as needed although that won't be the case for long imo
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United States11393 Posts
On December 16 2013 10:01 cam connor wrote:
what about bw writers
pm 2pac or Epoxide
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Any idea as to when we will hear anything back?
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On December 17 2013 01:47 OfMiceAndMods wrote:
Any idea as to when we will hear anything back?
would like to know this as well ^^
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I think writers should pay TL for the opportunity and tribune it gives them.
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Sounds like a great opportunity. I will apply. My main concern is none of the past 2013 tournaments are fresh in my mind. I would have to go back and find the vods.
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is it possible to "grow" into writing articles?...since english is not my first language i would like to brush up my skills and follow my favorite game/community.
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That does sounds like a good oportunity. I will try to write the two articles in the following days.
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so if we haven't heard back by now, is it safe to assume that we didn't fit the bill? i just want to know if i should stop checking my email every 5 minutes
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 23 2013 02:43 partydude89 wrote:so if we haven't heard back by now, is it safe to assume that we didn't fit the bill? i just want to know if i should stop checking my email every 5 minutes
Something might still pop up. As far as I can tell, no new writers have popped up so far so the process might still be ongoing
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Rumors have it Obama will be present during coronation.
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On December 23 2013 03:54 govie wrote:
Rumors have it Obama will be present during coronation.
You mean MC will be there?!
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On December 23 2013 03:03 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 02:43 partydude89 wrote:so if we haven't heard back by now, is it safe to assume that we didn't fit the bill? i just want to know if i should stop checking my email every 5 minutes Something might still pop up. As far as I can tell, no new writers have popped up so far so the process might still be ongoing
Hey! I had some urgent things popping up, so my application was quite late. Still have a chance to get in?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
Yes
I'm sure someone will get in don't get impatient guys :p
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On December 23 2013 04:00 Cokefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2013 03:54 govie wrote:
Rumors have it Obama will be present during coronation. You mean MC will be there?!
Someone that works at the pitchfork preserver told me he would attend the bungabunga party.
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TLADT24920 Posts
are you guys still looking or have the spots been filled?
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Has anybody received any feedback upon sending in their articles?
I sent mine in weeks ago and haven't heard a thing yet ..
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Still no response. I think I will post my article in the SCII Strategy board myself. This is really not cool!
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Why does TL keep losing its writers? seems like every month or so the writers are required.
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On April 23 2014 21:05 t0n!ght wrote:
Still no response. I think I will post my article in the SCII Strategy board myself. This is really not cool!
I had the same with my Hearthstone writer's application, hard to get new writers when no-one is processing applications.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On April 23 2014 21:05 t0n!ght wrote:
Still no response. I think I will post my article in the SCII Strategy board myself. This is really not cool!
I recommend you harass Waxy in PMs. I offered to read and judge but I'd probably just write an article about the worst application articles I would have read
+ Show Spoiler +Note: I do not recommend you harass Waxangel in PMs
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On April 23 2014 21:33 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 21:05 t0n!ght wrote:
Still no response. I think I will post my article in the SCII Strategy board myself. This is really not cool! I recommend you harass Waxy in PMs. I offered to read and judge but I'd probably just write an article about the worst application articles I would have read + Show Spoiler +Note: I do not recommend you harass Waxangel in PMs
If it's not good enough that's fine. But I spent multiple hours writing it and would appreciate some feedback
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TL writers are awesome, I wish I had the time to be able to apply. Sadly I don't, I will however take time off from my busy schedule to read your works when then are published =D Props to the writers and I also hope that the ones that do sends in applications does get some feedback.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On April 23 2014 21:14 aka_star wrote:
Why does TL keep losing its writers? seems like every month or so the writers are required.
Studies and jobs are annoying things, as is fading interest. There is basically an unlimited amount of Starcraft for us to cover, however, so it's unlikely that we'll ever have top many writers.
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On April 23 2014 22:40 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 21:14 aka_star wrote:
Why does TL keep losing its writers? seems like every month or so the writers are required. Studies and jobs are annoying things, as is fading interest. There is basically an unlimited amount of Starcraft for us to cover, however, so it's unlikely that we'll ever have top many writers.
Need so much passion. Right?
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On April 23 2014 22:40 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2014 21:14 aka_star wrote:
Why does TL keep losing its writers? seems like every month or so the writers are required. Studies and jobs are annoying things, as is fading interest. There is basically an unlimited amount of Starcraft for us to cover, however, so it's unlikely that we'll ever have top many writers.
I'm studying too and I do not have much spare time. But I view it as an oportunity to improve my english further and to give something back to the comunity. Anyways I think we would all have more time if we would stop watching hours of twitch stream haha xD.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
pro tip: the only reason to watch player streams is to research inside jokes for articles
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I don't know if I can handle rejection again ~
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On April 23 2014 22:59 lichter wrote:
pro tip: the only reason to watch player streams is to research inside jokes for articles
Haha I don't know watching avilo for kicks works out for me xD. Love it when he gets angry about the Broodlord all-in on 6 bases xD
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good luck and thanks in advance to the new writers! If I had more time
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EPT
