Winrates since WCS S3 (Mostly since October) - Page 5

On December 09 2013 16:33 Qwerty85 wrote:
So out of those 2.4k games, what is the sample size before and what is after the patch?

On December 09 2013 17:06 USvBleakill wrote:
TvZ is kinda interesting, TvP the numbers doesn´t really matter. TvP will always have some weird numbers because there are way more successful foreign Protoss than Terrans.

On December 09 2013 17:06 USvBleakill wrote:
TvZ is kinda interesting, TvP the numbers doesn´t really matter. TvP will always have some weird numbers because there are way more successful foreign Protoss than Terrans.

On December 09 2013 16:33 Qwerty85 wrote:
So out of those 2.4k games, what is the sample size before and what is after the patch?

On December 09 2013 07:14 Blargh wrote:
Unfortunately, the game is still horribly designed with units such as the Oracle in the game. Do you really want a unit that flies at Nascar speeds and has the potential to kill a whole mineral line in about 10 seconds. It's just a unit in the game that really do not add anything truly "skill-requiring" to the game. Terran are stuck sitting with 5+ marines and a turret, and there is nothing else they can do about it.

So, the win rates can be completely even, but the game is still sort of bad. Too many units lack skill-requiring mechanics, which ends up limiting the game's "reflectiveness" of skill (meaning, skill is not represented very well).

@bo1b
There is zero reason why Blizzard shouldn't be actively trying to improve their game other than the fact that they don't really make any money off of SC2 any more. And that's the worst developer excuse (at least for a company as well-off as Blizzard is........) ever. Instead of just trying to make it so all of the races win an equal amount, they should be trying to improve the mechanics and aspects of the game. They should change some skills around so that they do something more interesting than totally slow a huge area (Time Warp). There is really nothing the Terran can do once time-warped, as the spell is gigantic and has far too strong of an effect. The role of TW is also fulfilled by Force Fields, so there was not really much of a reason to add it in the first place.

They have a TEST SERVER for this exact reason. Might as well have it constantly up with new changes. They could just throw totally random things up on the test server and it'd be better than how it is now.

On December 09 2013 17:39 Striker123 wrote:
I am surprised people are still talking about balance vs complaints on TvP....The problem lies in the design of TvP at the moment, not necessarily a balance issue. Obviously balance does come into play and many can see that by observing the ratio of toss vs terran players in Master and GM, and from that data, I would have to say that TvP is pretty balanced in pro scene atm (although many can argue that it's mainly due to like 2/3 korean terrans who are traditionally good since WoL days like Taeja).

The main problem that many terrans are addressing is the fact that due to design of Toss in general, ladder games can't be compared to LANs. Toss is a race that excels when one doesn't know how this person plays (a.k.a in ladder with so many barcodes in GM or randos that you haven't faced yet if you are in masters) due to the flexibility in early game. Now with the changes like MSC/Oracle Buff, it just adds on to so many things that toss can throw at you in terms of creativity (blink, dt, oracle, oracle into 3 gate, oracle into expo, greedy play with nexus cannon def, etc). This just makes TvP not FUN at all...it feels like when you win TvP that this toss tried to do something creative and failed horribly or you did not catch the timing attacks or the tech path toss went (in TvP no one can argue that Terran isn't the reactive race....if you don't choose the corresponding tech in forms of vikings vs col or ghosts vs ht, YOU ARE FUCKED. But if you guess it right, toss isn't always fucked and becomes a skill mu.)

This doesn't happen as much in LANs since you know how that toss player plays and what kind of tricks they excel at in particular (which is why even MC changed his playstyle from all-in('timing') into more macro cuz you just can't win when everyone knows your style as a protoss unless you go macro style). HOWEVER, in ladder, it's just 5-6 different openers toss throws at you, and you trying to predict it. The games NEVER go back and forth like TvZ or TvT....which really reduces the quality of MU imo. This is why many terrans are begging blizzard to buff mech so Terran can also have a tech path they can choose and hopefully make toss react to Terran's opener depending on maps.

On December 09 2013 17:24 vthree wrote:



I think we have to look at why that is. We can't just assume the better foreigners just play Protoss.

Also, strangely, I think the tournaments kind of balance themselves out in terms of win rate. There are very few big name foreign terrans so foreign teams end up picking up more Korean terrans and fly them to all the foreign events.

I don't have enough them to gather all the data. But I would be interested to know that if we took the top 10 players of each race (using alilugac or something) and see how many events they have been to since the patch. I have a feeling that the top 10 terrans go to a lot more tournaments compare to the top 10 protoss. Therefore, they end up pulling the win rate closer to 50%.

And I don't think we can throw out ladder data outright. Sure, if it is just for a single individual player, it might be because their style just works better when their opponent doesn't know their style(ie, mech in TvP, roach hydra in ZvT, etc). But blink all-ins, proxy oracles are pretty much in every protoss' arsenal, so if a terran player can be prepared for it in offline tournaments, they would be prepared on it on ladder.

After Soulkey's comment about lack of terrans on KR ladder, I went to check and there are 3 terrans in the top 30.

And I disagree that PvZ is like WoL. A lot of foreign protoss seem to prefer the 2 base all-ins. But Korean protoss are doing fine with taking a 3rd and defending it (although they still throw stuff like 2 base all-ins or each zealots (San!) to change things up). If you watch the Rain series, he has little to no problems taking his third. Yes, sometimes it gets cancelled/delayed but is not do or die.

On December 09 2013 18:20 AxionSteel wrote:
TvZ stats will continue to decline, TvP will always probably be around the same. It always seems somewhat balanced at the top level, no matter how frustrating it is for ladder terrans!

On December 09 2013 18:06 mihajovics wrote:
guys, guys...
please understand that these numbers mean (almost) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!
the sample size is just too small.

like the guy above said, just losing ONE series 2-0 changes the winrates by 1% !!!

it's fun to know these numbers but we can absolutely not determine anything balance wise (except that there isn't an enormous imbalance, like 60%, which would be highly unlikely, but my guess is that even with a real 55-45 distribution people would be raging)

On December 09 2013 18:06 mihajovics wrote:
guys, guys...
please understand that these numbers mean (almost) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!!
the sample size is just too small.

like the guy above said, just losing ONE series 2-0 changes the winrates by 1% !!!

it's fun to know these numbers but we can absolutely not determine anything balance wise (except that there isn't an enormous imbalance, like 60%, which would be highly unlikely, but my guess is that even with a real 55-45 distribution people would be raging)

On December 09 2013 18:53 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:

Luci is 0-12 w/l in last two tournament
Edit: sorry, lucifron has 14 losses and 0 wins in last 2 tournaments.

Opponent Race:    all
Opponent Country: all
Match Format:     all
On/offline:       both
Game Version:     all

On December 09 2013 17:39 Striker123 wrote:

This doesn't happen as much in LANs since you know how that toss player plays and what kind of tricks they excel at in particular (which is why even MC changed his playstyle from all-in('timing') into more macro cuz you just can't win when everyone knows your style as a protoss unless you go macro style). HOWEVER, in ladder, it's just 5-6 different openers toss throws at you, and you trying to predict it. The games NEVER go back and forth like TvZ or TvT....which really reduces the quality of MU imo. This is why many terrans are begging blizzard to buff mech so Terran can also have a tech path they can choose and hopefully make toss react to Terran's opener depending on maps.