SjoW switches race to Protoss - Page 20

On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level).

On December 03 2013 17:52 Lachrymose wrote:
That anybody can justify in their minds the belief that Warpgates are more user friendly than Barracks blows my mind.

On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:


Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran?

On December 03 2013 18:49 AxionSteel wrote:
If Terran was as easy as you make it out to be, you wouldn't see all the high leagues dominated by protoss and zerg, and only the very best Korean terrans with their mechanical brilliance able to compete with Terran in Sc2 at the top level.

On December 03 2013 18:43 playa wrote:


I just find toss incredibly hard to get used to in general if you care at all about trying to play optimally, meaning having all spell casters on a different hotkey and, at least, 2 nexi on their own hotkey. Part of trying to play correctly is never having your supply "cap" be too much higher than what your supply is. When you combine high supply units like colossi, immortals and void rays with having to factor in chrono boost, it really takes a while before you get a feel for when you should make pylons and how many.
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On December 03 2013 19:03 JustPassingBy wrote:


Not doubting what you are saying, warp gate might be a really powerful mechanic but it also makes macroing harder due to having no queue and the need to watch where you warp in. But why would you have two separate hotkeys for nexi?

On December 03 2013 19:18 DinoToss wrote:
Playa says what makes it hard for him, from what i think and from what i saw his statement is pretty unique. SC2 toss is different and because of that he can't nail it, hence it's harder than anything BW.

On December 03 2013 18:43 playa wrote:


I just find toss incredibly hard to get used to in general if you care at all about trying to play optimally, meaning having all spell casters on a different hotkey and, at least, 2 nexi on their own hotkey. Part of trying to play correctly is never having your supply "cap" be too much higher than what your supply is. When you combine high supply units like colossi, immortals and void rays with having to factor in chrono boost, it really takes a while before you get a feel for when you should make pylons and how many.

In BW it was really easy and at a comfortable pace. It was a lot more intuitive. Toss was incredibly "easy" in BW. I could offrace with toss and fare even better than with T (my main). But, that didn't mean Toss was stronger... just easier. In SC 2, with terran, being able to drop supply is somewhat like a get out of jail card. If you get supply blocked with toss, it's rarely ever not a big deal.

Terran macro in BW, where obviously it was harder, wasn't that hard to begin with. A big part of that is, say in t vs z, where it was the hardest, you mainly made the same units. Just marines and medics. It's very easy to get the timing down for when you need to start up your next cycle when you're not making many different types of units. Very easy. Toss, in SC 2, sucks if you don't have a little bit of everything. It's nearly impossible to have something go off in your head that let's you know when it's time to try to make more units or to have an idea of what cooldowns are done with (and the thing that lets you know on your screen is too concealed for me to notice).

And, ofc, the biggest thing is... with terran you don't have to leave your screen to have perfect macro. With toss, you always have to take your eyes off the battle or make some units here, switch screen, make some units here, etc. If you think macro'ing with terran is hard, toss is impossible. And some of these reasons are way terran players always have a higher spending quotient.

Also, when going from playing toss to terran in sc 2, it feels like you never have minerals. It really feels like the game is being played on the slowest speed. It's really unbearable, at least in the early game. With toss, your income is always booming and "constant;" There are no dips/breaks. You always have to be macro'ing well.

And, if you're trying to play optimally, you always have to keep tabs on your nexi chrono boost and then take into account forges, robos, etc and prioritize where the energy needs to go. Can you still chrono nexi? Toss macro in SC 2 is harder than terran or toss in BW, imo. And micro is more important than it was with Terran in BW: due to how reliant toss is on synergies, you can have a million different types of units yet still feel like all of your eggs are in one basket because you can't afford to lose any type of unit... and everything is a spell caster...

Anyways, I simply find toss way harder than terran was. Stim + attack move? Spreading marines? That stuff really wasn't hard in BW... I think people would benefit from splitting their units up more BW like, because that stuff just isn't hard... and the margin for error is so much higher. But I digress.

On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:


Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran?

On December 03 2013 20:11 Hider wrote:


Terran probably has the easiest macro in the sense that you never have to go back to your base. You can instead focus on your army all the time.

On December 03 2013 20:26 Merilwen wrote:
Out of interest, would someone mind telling me what SjoW's average APM is? A rough figure of course :3 Thanks! Good luck with him anyway, no matter what, if it keeps him passionate about the game it's worth it.