EPTSjoW switches race to Protoss - Page 19
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Grouch
Canada152 Posts
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BakedButters
United States748 Posts
On December 03 2013 12:35 StarStruck wrote: In this case, the Testie example is completely acceptable because he didn't just play Protoss. The Canadian was known as a race picker. He could play Zerg, Terran and Protoss at a highly respectable level. Once again, it's merely an example and APM can only take you so far. We've argued it so many times on this website that it's gone beyond tedious. Yes I agree APM can take you so far. But there is still a discrepancy in which race requires more meaningful APM to be successful, hence which race is mechanically easier, or more forgivable. This is simply due to how the three races are designed with very different macro mechanics and unit micro, causing some strategies and units to be more gimmicky and abusive. But since Sjow is really only pro with low APM to switch race, it will give us more insight on how big this discrepancy on APM/mechanics is required for the different races, or is it really more smart decision making/ intuition of game/ knowledge of build orders, etc. that will make player more consistent and successful, and these skills can only come with time in mastering the game though time. You can argue that with time, your APM will also rise, but there is a ceiling for every pro. Some pro more mechanically challenged than others. I'm trying to figure out what race can take most advantageous at different levels of APM. This was my point in the first post. Again this is in the lowish APM area, and since most average SC2 players fall more into this area, we can see why there's a major lack of Terrans on ladder | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45458 Posts
 Hopefully a race-switch gives him new motivation and the ability to start kicking ass again | ||
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ETisME
12702 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
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negativedge
4279 Posts
On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote: His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units. but terran can also queue units, meaning they can "remember" to macro once and get a lot out of it if they are floating minerals. every time a protoss forgets he has lost a cycle for good | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45458 Posts
On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote: His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units. Except Terran players can stack production cycles ahead of time by queuing units in their barracks, whereas you can't do that with Protoss's warpgates so you really need to hit your warpgate cycles at the exact time to keep your macro on par with Terran's. EDIT: Ninja'd by negativedge  | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote: His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units. You really rarely are going to chrono your warpgates, and chronoing your Robos/Stargates is a given. Terran don't float minerals as much because of queuing units, Protoss can never perfectly warp-in which is why you always have to make more warpgates than you can afford to constantly warp-in with. | ||
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SirPinky
United States525 Posts
On December 03 2013 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Except Terran players can stack production cycles ahead of time by queuing units in their barracks, whereas you can't do that with Protoss's warpgates so you really need to hit your warpgate cycles at the exact time to keep your macro on par with Terran's. EDIT: Ninja'd by negativedge Just don't convert to warpgate. Problem solved!!!! | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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KingofGods
Canada1218 Posts
Even pro protoss players always, always have chronoboost to spare especially when the action gets more intense which would be the main cause of forgetting to produce. | ||
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AlternativeEgo
Sweden17309 Posts
On December 03 2013 11:55 BakedButters wrote: Whether Toss is a more aggressive race, all-in race, or whatever, there is still that notion of Toss as a low APM race, meaning it's a mechanically more forgiving race. I'm not arguing that at the highest level, protoss is imba, because then at high APMs, Terran can unlock their race "potential" and overcome/abuse the protoss weaknesses, which are due to their design mechanics. I'm not arguing a person can't be successful with low APM. Look at Goody, Sjow, Elfi. But if Goody were to switch to P, will he be more successful? If Elfi switched to T, will he be less successful? I think Goody actually did switch for a short period. Could be it was just versus Protoss around the time he gave up on mech and went bio in that matchup. | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:52 BaneRiders wrote: I watched a bit of Sjow's stream yesterday, quite entertaining! He was in platinum, advanced to diamond as I watched. Did he make it to masters before the end of the day? Yes, on NA. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States45458 Posts
On December 03 2013 14:59 KingofGods wrote: You can only queue units if you have minerals to spare which generally means you have already missed a production cycle or two. So you are never making up lost time, you are only trying to ensure you don't lose anymore time. Even pro protoss players always, always have chronoboost to spare especially when the action gets more intense which would be the main cause of forgetting to produce. Obviously the same argument would be applicable to Protosses as well; chronoboosting your warp gates is rather silly if you're already macroing *so well* that you don't have any extra money to make more units (so why rush to open up the warp gate again?). At least with Terran, those with imperfect macro can queue units ahead of time and don't need to worry about "catching up" and using chrono boosts on warpgates instead of other structures. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 03 2013 13:37 ETisME wrote: His APM is low but the problem is his mechanics, he doesn't even use the base camera hotkey/ camera hotkey, everytime he moves around the base, he uses his mouse to drag the screen around Camera hotkey isn't that useful, for exemple, Stephano didn't use them and was one of the best zerg early 2012. And he was zerg where I think camera location hotkey were the most useful. Demuslim uses them only on the early game but is still a very good macro player. | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On December 03 2013 15:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Obviously the same argument would be applicable to Protosses as well; chronoboosting your warp gates is rather silly if you're already macroing *so well* that you don't have any extra money to make more units (so why rush to open up the warp gate again?). At least with Terran, those with imperfect macro can queue units ahead of time and don't need to worry about "catching up" and using chrono boosts on warpgates instead of other structures. The only Terran known to queued up production was Goody AFAIK, it's not that hard to have continious production even with low APM. When the terran has 1k+minerals it's more because of the lack of production facilities, and it's better to add multiple rax when you are at 1k minerais than queuing units. | ||
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BaneRiders
Sweden3630 Posts
Cool!  | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
Last time I watched, he was already rank 1 master, not sure whether he managed to get into gm yet. edit: nope, still top master: http://www.sc2ranks.com/character/us/5208635/PatchToss/hots/1v1 | ||
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