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Source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/esport/starcraft2/article17933815.ab
Translation of the last part:
"Switches race to Protoss
He has now got a new goal. Switching race to Protoss and achieving top 50 grandmaster on the ladder within a month. Otherwise he will switch back to Terran.
- Protoss suits my playstyle better, I think. The game gets more enjoyable as well since everything is new. I will also have an advantage against Terrans, if I become good."
He seems pretty serious, who knows.
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I love it. I look forward to him realizing it's a hell of a lot less than faceroll.
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your Country52797 Posts
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He started out as P during beta, didn't achieve anything until he switced to T. He could probably be as good with P as he is with T, but top 50 GM in one month might be a bit to hard.
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SjoW will be using the Oracle the way he used the Banshee.
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Yeah well, he's pretty slow so it really suits him better.
No hate brotosses.
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Cool! I'm interested to see what he can do.
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good luck sjow
but as terran ill do some facepalms :p ...
WE MUST HOLD
STAY ON THE FRONT
;;;
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Another foreign terran bites the dust
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I liked his Terran! But what can I say, Protoss matches everyone's style.
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Good choice, protoss is easier.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Good luck to him /sarcasm
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Smart decision, probably the best thing to do these days.
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ah sweet I was waiting for a pro T to put up or shut up, gl sjow prove someone wrong! (terran balance whiners or protoss snobs who think their race is hard)
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RTS skills are pretty universal regardless of the race. I believe he can get top 50 gm with zerg if he wanted too.
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Now I have a favourite protoss player. GL
He will have no problem getting top 50 with protoss.
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This will be really fun to watch assuming he's serious. gl sjow!
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I mean honestly when EU GM has literally over twice as many protoss as terran you can't really blame him. Pretty much every foreign terran that has switched race has found more success, TLO to zerg, ROOTMinigun to protoss for example. I don't think literally any foreigner has ever switched to terran and found success. Judging by GM %'s it seems a lot of regular ladder folks have made the switch as well. Will he be beating koreans as toss? maybe not, are his chances of beating koreans higher as toss? Well if ToD 2-0ing mc is any indication, or just foreigner terran vs korean winrates in general it almost seems like a sure thing just by the nature of the races. Before someone says it, yes we know the game is balanced around taeja and innovation.
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SjoW, why are you aiding the enemy?!
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offtopic - does aftonbladet have a own section for esports? :D
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I like Sjow, I like Toss -> profit!
Welcome to Aiur 
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On November 30 2013 05:47 Taters_ wrote:
offtopic - does aftonbladet have a own section for esports? :D
Yes. It's the coolest thing ever me thinks. Sweden so ahead of the curve.
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If you can't beat em', join em' 
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Well it's ok to switch it from time to time..
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I am impressed no one made an APM joke yet
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well tossimba
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 30 2013 05:44 Nibbler89 wrote:
I mean honestly when EU GM has literally over twice as many protoss as terran you can't really blame him. Pretty much every foreign terran that has switched race has found more success, TLO to zerg, ROOTMinigun to protoss for example. I don't think literally any foreigner has ever switched to terran and found success. Judging by GM %'s it seems a lot of regular ladder folks have made the switch as well. Will he be beating koreans as toss? maybe not, are his chances of beating koreans higher as toss? Well if ToD 2-0ing mc is any indication, or just foreigner terran vs korean winrates in general it almost seems like a sure thing just by the nature of the races. Before someone says it, yes we know the game is balanced around taeja and innovation.
true, yet the over-representation of toss in GM will give him a hard time "PvPing" it out. A month should not be enough to get good enough in a mirror to reach/stay top50 GM even for a pro.
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Oracle buff that bad, huh?
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He will not get top50 gm in month
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Hehe! I actually thought, when watching yesterday's games, that Sjow should switch to Protoss. The way he plays seems more like a protoss way. Funny how things work out. I really hope this works out for him!
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I think this is actually a good decision! He always seemed like a smart and sneaky player rather than a hardcore mechanical player, as he always has a lot of success when everything is brand new and he can use this to his advantage. It feels like Protoss would suit this more than Terran 
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Should have done it before maybe he would have pass his dh group.
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So much Protoss hate in here 
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Are you fucking kidding me? You abandon Terran race for Protoss.... Human Garbage...
User was warned for this post
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United States23455 Posts
Sjow always played with like 90 APM ish so maybe Protoss will be better for him
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On November 30 2013 06:27 Darkhoarse wrote:Sjow always played with like 90 APM ish so maybe Protoss will be better for him
Goody played with 90 Apm ,too.
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LOL, he couldnt keep up the 80 APM so he switched to protoss, problem solved. Sjowbo is back
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On November 30 2013 06:27 Darkhoarse wrote:Sjow always played with like 90 APM ish so maybe Protoss will be better for him
elfi is always top8 gm and hehave 80-100 apm depending matchup :D
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On November 30 2013 06:51 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 06:27 Darkhoarse wrote:Sjow always played with like 90 APM ish so maybe Protoss will be better for him elfi is always top8 gm and hehave 80-100 apm depending matchup :D
elfi can up his clicks when the situation requires him to. He was rocking a solid 244 during one of his Dreamhack fights.
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On November 30 2013 06:35 Vete wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 06:27 Darkhoarse wrote:Sjow always played with like 90 APM ish so maybe Protoss will be better for him Goody played with 90 Apm ,too.
goody has 140+ (not that high but far away from 90)
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Well this season is already underway so he will have to wait for someone to drop out of GM.
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What happened to "All tosses are slobs?"
Joke aside; he should do whatever makes him happy, of course.
I can't help but be sad that there are so few good foreign (and especially swedish) Terrans, though. Thorzain is playing half-time, Morrow is a cool guy but hasn't been very high-profile since the HotS-beta, and now Sjow switches races.
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thats what cloud did before he retired . swich to protoss . is not so easy as you think you will see .
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On November 30 2013 05:44 Nibbler89 wrote:
I mean honestly when EU GM has literally over twice as many protoss as terran you can't really blame him. Pretty much every foreign terran that has switched race has found more success, TLO to zerg, ROOTMinigun to protoss for example. I don't think literally any foreigner has ever switched to terran and found success. Judging by GM %'s it seems a lot of regular ladder folks have made the switch as well. Will he be beating koreans as toss? maybe not, are his chances of beating koreans higher as toss? Well if ToD 2-0ing mc is any indication, or just foreigner terran vs korean winrates in general it almost seems like a sure thing just by the nature of the races. Before someone says it, yes we know the game is balanced around taeja and innovation.
They both switched in Wings though. In Wings, the cumulative amount of time where one race was a decent amount stronger than the others, terran definitely takes the lead. Considering how few people switch races at all, your example is kinda poor.
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protoss ez race i understand him
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It should be interesting to see a pro player give an opinion on protoss when he isn't hilariously biased for protoss or against protoss.
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On November 30 2013 06:57 NeThZOR wrote:
Well this season is already underway so he will have to wait for someone to drop out of GM.
There were 183 GM players when I last time checked 6-8h ago.
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Excellent career move, every single pro player should be doing this tbh
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On November 30 2013 07:18 wozzot wrote:
Excellent career move, every single pro player should be doing this tbh
yeah because PvP is such a great matchup
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On November 30 2013 07:06 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
It should be interesting to see a pro player give an opinion on protoss when he isn't hilariously biased for protoss or against protoss.
Sjow isn't a great example of that, though.
I never understood that about him anyway, because I do agree that protoss would fit his playstyle better.
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u cant change race after such a long time, sorry
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Also I hope he streams it. Drewbie's stream is quite fun when he plays PvT
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I also believe protoss suits SjoW, i also think protoss suits Thorzain alot.
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On November 30 2013 05:45 cloneThorN wrote:
SjoW, why are you aiding the enemy?!
Can't beat em' join em'....
I think a lot of T's are considering the same.
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Leave Terran to the Koreans, good choice.
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On November 30 2013 07:24 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 07:06 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
It should be interesting to see a pro player give an opinion on protoss when he isn't hilariously biased for protoss or against protoss. Sjow isn't a great example of that, though. I never understood that about him anyway, because I do agree that protoss would fit his playstyle better.
And a few months down the line? When he's practiced protoss constantly and has already experienced another race at the highest level for a few years? I think he'll have lost a lot of bias by then.
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I can't wait to see his PvT
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For those wanting to see how foreign terrans fare when they switch to protoss, you can watch Avilo who often off races as protoss. And FYI, his win rate is probably about the same with protoss as terran, keeping in mind that when he is protoss his MMR is the same as his terran because he plays protoss on his terran account.
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On November 30 2013 08:24 KingofGods wrote:
For those wanting to see how foreign terrans fare when they switch to protoss, you can watch Avilo who often off races as protoss. And FYI, his win rate is probably about the same with protoss as terran, keeping in mind that when he is protoss his MMR is the same as his terran because he plays protoss on his terran account. As of a couple weeks ago his P play was beyond awful so I highly doubt this
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You can't beat GMs, which is what he is doing, with beyond awful play.
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Everyone should switch races once in a while. The game suddenly becomes more fun.
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On November 30 2013 08:39 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 08:24 KingofGods wrote:
For those wanting to see how foreign terrans fare when they switch to protoss, you can watch Avilo who often off races as protoss. And FYI, his win rate is probably about the same with protoss as terran, keeping in mind that when he is protoss his MMR is the same as his terran because he plays protoss on his terran account. As of a couple weeks ago his P play was beyond awful so I highly doubt this
Yeah, well everyone dreams that switching to another race will make everything so much easier. But then they find out there are all these things about that race they never thought of that are hard. The grass is always greener.
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On November 30 2013 08:43 KingofGods wrote:
You can't beat GMs, which is what he is doing, with beyond awful play. I distinctly recall him switching to P to cheese vs. T because it was oh so hard to deal with and getting his shit pushed in 5 times in a row
I don't doubt that he's won a few games but there's no way in hell he's been doing as well with P as with T
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Good luck to Sjow! This should be a good experience either way! I kinda wish more pros would try switching races whenever they feel they are not doing as good. It will help them refocus and maybe learn more about other races even if they ultimately don't go through with the race change.
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At the very least it'll improve his TvP
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Good for him, putting his money where his mouth is (although idk if he actually complains bout protoss like every other terran, just making assumptions).
We'll see how he fares!
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I'ma cry :'( I know it's probably a good choice on a business standpoint, but I have always loved and respected Sjow for trying and achieving a lot through sticking with terran. He was kind of an inspiration to me because of his slow play style and still being able to do pretty well, and even on his streams he says that Terran is the "manly race". Oh well, I would rather see him win than for him to stay Terran, although ideally I would want both. Best of luck, friend.
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I never scout and I want to play as Protoss.
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That's not gonna work out.
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On November 30 2013 08:39 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 08:24 KingofGods wrote:
For those wanting to see how foreign terrans fare when they switch to protoss, you can watch Avilo who often off races as protoss. And FYI, his win rate is probably about the same with protoss as terran, keeping in mind that when he is protoss his MMR is the same as his terran because he plays protoss on his terran account. As of a couple weeks ago his P play was beyond awful so I highly doubt this
My PvP winrate is about even or higher than my TvP winrate...derive from that what you will.
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On November 30 2013 08:43 KingofGods wrote:
You can't beat GMs, which is what he is doing, with beyond awful play.
Obviously u haven't played that WhatAmI guy on ladder
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good for him ! i mean why not switch .. flash even thought of switching to toss
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Probably he knows that Toss are Op btw GL to him, he wasn't doing too good in tournments
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Considering it's the end of the season.. he does know a new patch is imminent right? Well, at least his goals were labelled clearly and there are terms to it.
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In general, unless you're an all-in type player, that abuses players not practiced enough/good enough to have the right response, then I doubt you would have more success with toss. Terran is far more straight forward. It's just a matter of are you actually good enough to do it. But, with sjow's apm, he is a rare case that might benefit hugely from a more death ball type race.
Anyone can cheese with toss. For instance, anyone would get an increase in win% vs p if they didn't have any dignity/pride and decided to cannon rush every game. I wish toss cheese was nerfed. It makes the race seem easier than it is; if you're actually trying to play macro games, it's probably harder than other races. 10 out of the top 15 in NA GM aren't Terran for no reason. Everyone knows how to play it... some just aren't good enough... toss isn't exactly the answer if you're already playing macro games.
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His major problem has always been refusing to scout. Don't roll the dice and no, not everyone can cheese efficiently (I question if they know what cheese really is at the same time) at the top end. Lay off the sauce.
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Eh, I think he's moving because of perceived balance rather than playstyle. Then again, the lower APM may come in handy, considering at his level I think Protoss benefits more from it. Hard to be a top contending terran with low APM.... (although you could say it generally for all races, perhaps more direclty pertinent to Terran).
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On November 30 2013 11:56 FabledIntegral wrote:
Eh, I think he's moving because of perceived balance rather than playstyle. Then again, the lower APM may come in handy, considering at his level I think Protoss benefits more from it. Hard to be a top contending terran with low APM.... (although you could say it generally for all races, perhaps more direclty pertinent to Terran).
I'd say it's a combination of both. He rather push the action rather than receiving it, i.e. the PvZ the roles have been reversed-- Zergs play more reactionary and it does fit Sjow's playstyle. He likes to harass.
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Maybe we are slowly discovering that the races in Starcraft are correlated with populations in the real world. =D
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On November 30 2013 08:04 Dodgin wrote:
Leave Terran to the Koreans, good choice.
This. Foreigners play terran like Woongjin used to.
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On November 30 2013 05:02 sd_andeh wrote:Source: http://www.aftonbladet.se/esport/starcraft2/article17933815.abTranslation of the last part: Show nested quote +"Switches race to Protoss
He has now got a new goal. Switching race to Protoss and achieving top 50 grandmaster on the ladder within a month. Otherwise he will switch back to Terran.
- Protoss suits my playstyle better, I think. The game gets more enjoyable as well since everything is new. I will also have an advantage against Terrans, if I become good." He seems pretty serious, who knows.
terran pro gamer since 2010....
Before exp : retire or switch Zerg
After exp : retire or switch Protoss
I'm sure he will enjoy the game more, I'm also enjoying stuff when they are more easy and I'm sure he will get the top 50 Grandmaster easy... He such a good Terran
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That's really misguided. If Protoss was really really weak then Taeja or Life or Soulkey or Innovation would have won WCS, not Sjow. At all but the highest level it doesn't matter what race you play since you still have enough room to improve and overcome imbalance.
And if Toss gets nerfed he'll regret this so much.
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Could become an Elfi clone.
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Can't blame him, his job is to win.
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On November 30 2013 05:24 D4V3Z02 wrote:
Good choice, protoss is easier.
While probably true he surely understimates the skill it takes and will soon go back to T.
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One guy switches races... meh.
Will this prove anything balance-wise? Absolutely not.
Will half of the community act like it proves everything? Absolutely.
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GL SjoW, but I think he will be back to terran anyway
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On November 30 2013 11:24 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 08:39 RampancyTW wrote:On November 30 2013 08:24 KingofGods wrote:
For those wanting to see how foreign terrans fare when they switch to protoss, you can watch Avilo who often off races as protoss. And FYI, his win rate is probably about the same with protoss as terran, keeping in mind that when he is protoss his MMR is the same as his terran because he plays protoss on his terran account. As of a couple weeks ago his P play was beyond awful so I highly doubt this My PvP winrate is about even or higher than my TvP winrate...derive from that what you will.
That says more about PvP than anything else.
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He will stop after realizing how horrible garbage pvp is.
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switching to the superior race is never a bad idea i guess
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All the best to him! Even though I hardly believe he will have that much more success with toss ^_^
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On November 30 2013 17:23 Kaeru wrote:
After I played Terran for a long time I decided to switch to Protoss... My main reason was that I got tired of playing the same race over and over again. The first month Protoss was so easy, I just a-moved and won... Blinked a little bit with my Stalkers...
Only when I came high master and started playing vs GM players could I realize how hard Protoss is to play. Terran players think that Protoss is easy - yeah - just wait and see. You'll see your army melt without even understanding what the fuck happened.
Oh, yeah, (let me rephrase this) it's really hard for the other races to understand that  .
Couldn't help it.
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hahaha i laughed for some reason.
not because of sjow but fact that he is switching to protoss
i wonder why...
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gogo Sjow, you can practice with naniwa
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Switching after all this time not good to be honest.Whenever i have seen him play his scouting is poor and his APM is just way to low. Why doesn't he work on those two aspects of his game rather than do a flavour of the month switch. What happens if mech is buffed further somewhere down the line which is a lower APM form of play does he switch back to Terran?
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he will hate his life
do you know why?
pvp...
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So a player who farmed St.Life at Dreamhack (we all know what was the reason) now decided to switch an other race which is probably the strongest atm. Patchplayer confirmed.
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On November 30 2013 18:27 stormtemplar wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 18:23 JonIrenicus wrote:On November 30 2013 17:23 Kaeru wrote:
After I played Terran for a long time I decided to switch to Protoss... My main reason was that I got tired of playing the same race over and over again. The first month Protoss was so easy, I just a-moved and won... Blinked a little bit with my Stalkers...
Only when I came high master and started playing vs GM players could I realize how hard Protoss is to play. Terran players think that Protoss is easy - yeah - just wait and see. You'll see your army melt without even understanding what the fuck happened. You probably forgot that colossi are a protoss unit, Colossi as a unit are extremely fragile. Unsupported, or poorly microed they can easily be butchered. The other main thing with toss is you usually only get one shot at fighting. If your main force dies mid-late game you lose 99% of the time. The protoss army has tremendous damage output, and as such can feel oppressive when well used, but if I do just A-Move as many suggest I can, I'll get butchered and lose the game directly after.
350hp, 2.25 speed, 9 range, ability to walk on cliffs. Yeah, that must be extremely fragile. Yeah they can be easily butchered by flying units, cause they cant shoot them. There are a ton of units like this that cant shoot air, but we dont call them extremely fragile. Losing a main army as toss, its pretty impossible. Forcefields, recall, time warp you know. Even if you lose it, then you probably lost the game earlier cause of other reasons.
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On November 30 2013 16:49 Satiinifi wrote:
He will stop after realizing how horrible garbage pvp is.
Satiini tried to change to protoss. He even did 50€ bet with Welmu that he will win Welmu in PvT ( Satiini plays protoss, welmu plays terran)
Welmu won :D
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On November 30 2013 18:23 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
he will hate his life
do you know why?
pvp...
Yeah protoss players hate pvp, cause they dont have the natural advantage like vs the other races. As a spectator the pvp is looking good now. Im sure that is much better than was it in the WoL.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 30 2013 18:23 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
he will hate his life
do you know why?
pvp...
I have never understood why people hate PvP?
Since I started playing, PvP has always been my strongest matchup. I know everything there can happen, there is no imbalances(:D), it's just so simply. Immortal<stalker, zealot>immortal, voidray>stalker...etc..
elfi and Welmu also love PvP and they are without question one of the best foreign PvP players. elfi might be the best.
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Italy12246 Posts
As far as playing, it's goddamn annoying to play PvP. Tons of BO losses; HotS didn't change much in that regard.
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On November 30 2013 19:27 Teoita wrote:
As far as playing, it's goddamn annoying to play PvP. Tons of BO losses; HotS didn't change much in that regard.
Don't play so greedy and scout, easy.
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On November 30 2013 19:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 19:27 Teoita wrote:
As far as playing, it's goddamn annoying to play PvP. Tons of BO losses; HotS didn't change much in that regard. Don't play so greedy and scout, easy.
Thats a bit of a problem for the "Blind Terran" dont you think
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On November 30 2013 05:41 Terranist wrote:
RTS skills are pretty universal regardless of the race. I believe he can get top 50 gm with zerg if he wanted too.
No ?...
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He hasn't switched race yet, he's just gonna do an experiment to see if it works better for him.
Doesn't seem like a sustainable strategy to me, just race-changing to whichever race seems overpowered at the moment. I hope he was at least half joking, in an elaborate way of saying "protoss OP plz nerf >.< "
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Haha. The passive aggressiveness in this thread is hilarious
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On November 30 2013 06:26 istandwithmitt wrote:
Are you fucking kidding me? You abandon Terran race for Protoss.... Human Garbage...
User was warned for this post
only a warning? tl gone soft these days, a lot of insulting going unanswered
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Kinda funny regarding he stated "playing Terran feels f** great after winning against Life on Dreamhack(?).
Mines nerfed, switching to Toss. While you face a ton of Protosses on Master Ladder which honestly dont really have the skill of a Master League player. But well, not complaining about balance or something...
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Well, since some people think protoss is easy, his case will be a real example whether that is true or not. I'm only interested in seeing his PvZ, probably PvP too. He already has an advantage at PvT by having been terran before.
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On November 30 2013 22:10 realityyy wrote:
Mines nerfed, switching to Toss. While you face a ton of Protosses on Master Ladder which honestly dont really have the skill of a Master League player.
On November 30 2013 22:10 realityyy wrote:
But well, not complaining about balance or something...
Suttle
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If you can't beat them, join them GL Sjow, but I hope to see you as Terran again
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On November 30 2013 19:23 hunspirit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 18:23 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
he will hate his life
do you know why?
pvp...
Yeah protoss players hate pvp, cause they dont have the natural advantage like vs the other races. As a spectator the pvp is looking good now. Im sure that is much better than was it in the WoL.
People are hilarious in here )))
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On November 30 2013 22:59 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 19:23 hunspirit wrote:On November 30 2013 18:23 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
he will hate his life
do you know why?
pvp...
Yeah protoss players hate pvp, cause they dont have the natural advantage like vs the other races. As a spectator the pvp is looking good now. Im sure that is much better than was it in the WoL. People are hilarious in here )))
This thread has turned into a goldmine of amazing balance whines and quotes. I find to be quite enjoyable.
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On November 30 2013 19:33 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 19:27 Teoita wrote:
As far as playing, it's goddamn annoying to play PvP. Tons of BO losses; HotS didn't change much in that regard. Don't play so greedy and scout, easy.
There is no catch all build. If you play "safe" then you'll get build order countered by a greedy player.
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Yet another Terran foreign hope lost.... it is a dark day on the Terran front.
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Good for him, now he can have a fulltime job and still be considered a SC2 pro, if he's clever enough.
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On November 30 2013 23:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 22:59 Doublemint wrote:On November 30 2013 19:23 hunspirit wrote:On November 30 2013 18:23 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
he will hate his life
do you know why?
pvp...
Yeah protoss players hate pvp, cause they dont have the natural advantage like vs the other races. As a spectator the pvp is looking good now. Im sure that is much better than was it in the WoL. People are hilarious in here ))) This thread has turned into a goldmine of amazing balance whines and quotes. I find to be quite enjoyable.
I thought it was common knowledge that protoss is better in PvT on the "lower" levels of play, which is the level of play at least 90% of the non-Korean competition takes place. Though at the same time I see the very best terran players run over their protoss competitors in games where I cannot even point out a single mistake by the protoss (though that might be because of my limited game knowledge).
This is the problem of having such diverse races in a game, whose competitive scene shows such a broad range of skill. Imo, the correct response is to just deal with it.
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Agreed, funny how this thread turned out :D
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The small elite group of +60 apm protosses is growing.
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On November 30 2013 19:27 Teoita wrote:
As far as playing, it's goddamn annoying to play PvP. Tons of BO losses; HotS didn't change much in that regard.
Strange we have people who seem to be able to sustain high winrate in pvp...
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Every mirror matchup has "build order wins". Being "build order countered" does not mean you instantly lose. I suspect the reason why most Ps don't like PvP is because most Ps don't like to initiate the action, they would rather sit back and fight with their 200/200 deathball army. Since both players are P, you now have both players sitting back and waiting until their 200/200 deathball armies before an attack.
Yes I realize there is a lot of action going on in the first 8 mins of a PvP, but if no one has died before then they won't be dying for a while.
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On December 01 2013 01:14 KingofGods wrote:
Every mirror matchup has "build order wins". Being "build order countered" does not mean you instantly lose. I suspect the reason why most Ps don't like PvP is because most Ps don't like to initiate the action, they would rather sit back and fight with their 200/200 deathball army. Since both players are P, you now have both players sitting back and waiting until their 200/200 deathball armies before an attack.
Yes I realize there is a lot of action going on in the first 8 mins of a PvP, but if no one has died before then they won't be dying for a while.
that doesn't even make any sense: if what you said'd be true, then the tosses you describe would love PvP since they could just try to play save to the 8 min mark and then sit back and build the 200/200 army they are so in love with.
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On December 01 2013 01:28 tar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 01:14 KingofGods wrote:
Every mirror matchup has "build order wins". Being "build order countered" does not mean you instantly lose. I suspect the reason why most Ps don't like PvP is because most Ps don't like to initiate the action, they would rather sit back and fight with their 200/200 deathball army. Since both players are P, you now have both players sitting back and waiting until their 200/200 deathball armies before an attack.
Yes I realize there is a lot of action going on in the first 8 mins of a PvP, but if no one has died before then they won't be dying for a while. that doesn't even make any sense: if what you said'd be true, then the tosses you describe would love PvP since they could just try to play save to the 8 min mark and then sit back and build the 200/200 army they are so in love with.
Except they don't want to play against another PROTOSS 200/200 army.
Playing against a 200/200 bio army or a 200/200 roach army is very much different from playing against a 200/200 protoss army.
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On December 01 2013 01:32 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 01:28 tar wrote:On December 01 2013 01:14 KingofGods wrote:
Every mirror matchup has "build order wins". Being "build order countered" does not mean you instantly lose. I suspect the reason why most Ps don't like PvP is because most Ps don't like to initiate the action, they would rather sit back and fight with their 200/200 deathball army. Since both players are P, you now have both players sitting back and waiting until their 200/200 deathball armies before an attack.
Yes I realize there is a lot of action going on in the first 8 mins of a PvP, but if no one has died before then they won't be dying for a while. that doesn't even make any sense: if what you said'd be true, then the tosses you describe would love PvP since they could just try to play save to the 8 min mark and then sit back and build the 200/200 army they are so in love with. Except they don't want to play against another PROTOSS 200/200 army. Playing against a 200/200 bio army or a 200/200 roach army is very much different from playing against a 200/200 protoss army.
ahhh yes, because you can just a move against a 200/200 bio army... forgot about that 
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no...... that's not what I was implying.............but ok.
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then what were you implying?
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I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win".
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United States4883 Posts
On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win".
The reason why protoss plays better at higher foods is because their army is set up around having a bunch of strong, expensive tech units supported by gateway units; in other words, in order to fight a bio army, protoss HAS to have colossus plus storm plus a healthy gateway count in order to even take on the army. Protoss players don't rush to maxed supply because it's the best way to play, they rush for it because it's the only way to play. That, however, does not mean that "a 200/200 army is stronger than a 200/200 zerg or terran army." That is a false statement. a ghost/viking army is just as powerful as a protoss deathball late game, as is a BL/SH/infestor/hydra/queen army.
As far as lategame PvP goes, it's all about positioning and maintaining an economy advantage while making sure you don't trade awfully against your opponent. In PvP, almost all of your advantages lie in how strong your reinforcement warpin after a fight is.
Early game PvP sucks because there's a large variety of bullshit things you can lose to. Which, I imagine, is why terran and zerg players hate playing against protoss as well. It's a double-edged sword, I suppose :p.
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I thought the power of the warp in after the fight was pretty obvious and didn't need to be spelled out but apparently not. In PvP, your protoss opponent will have the exact same quick warp in ability which nullifies your own which makes my statement of protoss players needing to find advantages elsewhere still true. Trying to make sure your maxed out army doesn't get beat down is exactly what the protoss players are good at, controlling their 200 / 200 deathball army.
No, I'm afraid you are wrong in thinking rushing to a 200 food army is the only way to play as protoss. Countless cannon rushes and other forms of protoss all ins on ladder and high profile tournaments have shown otherwise. Protoss players prefer to play that way because that is what they are comfortable with and to them is what they feel gives them the best opportunity to win. Whether that's actually true or not is irrelevant, their perception that that is true makes them play that way.
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I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced.
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I think he will do well, but he needs to give himself more time to learn the build orders interactions.
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On December 01 2013 03:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball. 1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced.
So.................are you trying to say my statement is not true or are you actually agreeing with what I am saying? Because it sure as heck sounds like you are trying to be confrontational.
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On December 01 2013 03:56 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 03:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball. 1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced. So.................are you trying to say my statement is not true or are you actually agreeing with what I am saying? Because it sure as heck sounds like you are trying to be confrontational.
I was agreeing with your point, but just adding that this is very much by design, and if it wasn't the case that 200/200 protoss armies are stronger than bioballs or roach armies, the game would be horribly imbalanced.
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its a smart decision. im not saying i like it. david kim surely is aiming for terran extinction.
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On December 01 2013 03:00 KingofGods wrote:
No, I'm afraid you are wrong in thinking rushing to a 200 food army is the only way to play as protoss.
Why are we arguing this in almost 2014? This has been an obvious fact for forever lol It's not even the best way, and generally not even really a good way unless you're defending against aggression
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Nothing wrong with what hes doing. He has free will and its his choice to change races if he wants too.
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Does anyone know his toss account? I think I saw it on sc2ranks few weeks ago but I think he have changed the name.
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On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win".
Deathball vs roach ball? lol
same if I say sentry 200/200 is worse than 200/200 roach
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On December 01 2013 04:48 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win". Deathball vs roach ball? lol same if I say sentry 200/200 is worse than 200/200 roach
No way bro, 800 forcefields op. Just tickle the roaches to death 1 at a time.
Edit: 400 forcefields, because sentries are 2 supply, duh.
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On December 01 2013 05:09 HystericaLaughter wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 04:48 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On December 01 2013 01:53 KingofGods wrote:
I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball.
Now in PvP they can't rely on having that strength over their opponent so they must try to gain an advantage somewhere else. As Day9 keeps saying, trying to find where you have an advantage in a mirror matchup is not easy. It's certainly a lot harder than going into a game with the mindset of, "if I can get to a 200/200 army I will probably win". Deathball vs roach ball? lol same if I say sentry 200/200 is worse than 200/200 roach No way bro, 800 forcefields op. Just tickle the roaches to death 1 at a time. Edit: 400 forcefields, because sentries are 2 supply, duh.
just burrow
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around 90 protoss and 40 terrans in eu gm at the Moment. you'd better prac pvp
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i guess protoos style suits everyone better.
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On December 01 2013 03:00 KingofGods wrote:
I thought the power of the warp in after the fight was pretty obvious and didn't need to be spelled out but apparently not. In PvP, your protoss opponent will have the exact same quick warp in ability which nullifies your own which makes my statement of protoss players needing to find advantages elsewhere still true. Trying to make sure your maxed out army doesn't get beat down is exactly what the protoss players are good at, controlling their 200 / 200 deathball army.
No, I'm afraid you are wrong in thinking rushing to a 200 food army is the only way to play as protoss. Countless cannon rushes and other forms of protoss all ins on ladder and high profile tournaments have shown otherwise. Protoss players prefer to play that way because that is what they are comfortable with and to them is what they feel gives them the best opportunity to win. Whether that's actually true or not is irrelevant, their perception that that is true makes them play that way.
I am honestly lost for words here. We came to the conclusion that Toss do not need to deathball to win - they can actually also cannon rush and all in for the win!
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Have he confirmed it outside of this interview?
Would hate to see him switch.. need that Terran hope!
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wow hotbid is everywhere all the time ! xD
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"I feel very dirty already." lol
This will be fun to see what happens. Good luck copying Elfi hehe
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im sorry but, this is hilarious
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On November 30 2013 06:56 AlternativeEgo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2013 06:51 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On November 30 2013 06:27 Darkhoarse wrote:Sjow always played with like 90 APM ish so maybe Protoss will be better for him elfi is always top8 gm and hehave 80-100 apm depending matchup :D elfi can up his clicks when the situation requires him to. He was rocking a solid 244 during one of his Dreamhack fights.
Was he pressing photon overcharge button like crazy in that fight? :D
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On December 01 2013 11:34 TRaFFiC wrote:
"I feel very dirty already." lol
This will be fun to see what happens. Good luck copying Elfi hehe
What? Copying elfi?
elfi is one and only one true god
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4F0kVxO.jpg)
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On December 01 2013 03:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball. 1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced.
Its depends on composition. Stalkers are expensive but zealots are cheaper and more popular in the matchup
cost per supply
marine=zealot
marauder<stalker
ghost>ht
medivac<=archon
viking>colossus
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Haha this interview. Fuck this is awesome, gl Sjow :D. His stream will be fun to watch.
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Omfg I lost it when hotbid asked what toss he will study and he said elfi XD
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Protoss confirmed easy race. But he´ll regret it, when he starts meeting Efli and loses every PvP against him.
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He's on the opposite end of the spectrum as far as skill goes to Sjow, but I think Flash is another terran who should do this.
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On December 01 2013 19:51 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2013 03:43 awesomoecalypse wrote:I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that a 200/200 protoss deathball is stronger than a 200/200 bio army or 200/200 roach army. This is exactly the reason why protoss want to wait until 200/200 before they fight. All players try to play to their strengths which for protoss players is deathball vs. deathball. 1 Stalker is more expensive for the same supply than 1 marauder or 2 marines. Its way more expensive than a roach. Certain exceptions like capital ships and caster units aside, this pattern generally holds true for Protoss armies vs, Terran or Zerg armies. So that 200/200 Protoss army generally cost them a lot more than a 200/200 bioball or roach army, and if it wasn't better than them, that'd be hugely imbalanced. Its depends on composition. Stalkers are expensive but zealots are cheaper and more popular in the matchup cost per supply marine=zealot marauder<stalker ghost>ht medivac<=archon viking>colossus
Yet on a unit by unit basis individual Protoss units typically have really obvious flaws (for want of a better word). Colossi can be hit by air attacks and are pretty much glass cannons. HT are slow as hell. Zealots are melee. Stalkers have hardly any DPS. Archons have fairly short range, are bulky and get really messed up by Ghosts' EMPs. Etc etc. Protoss lategame army works because of the interaction of all the elements of the army making up for weaknesses of individual units.
Point is you can't just rely on supply-cost effective units in a "cheap" composition because you need a variety of units or you'll have at least one glaring weakness. You need to cover every element, which is expensive.
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He's streaming right now 
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
I find it very difficult to believe that he'd get close to his Terran level with Protoss, but Classic proved me wrong so I guess Sjow might do the same. If someone still thinks Protoss is somehow "easy to play", though, said someone needs to wake up.
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On December 03 2013 00:57 Zealously wrote:
I find it very difficult to believe that he'd get close to his Terran level with Protoss, but Classic proved me wrong so I guess Sjow might do the same. If someone still thinks Protoss is somehow "easy to play", though, said someone needs to wake up.
I agree. But this will be an interesting test. He is streaming right now, and in Gold.
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"Patchtoss" is a cool name I wonder if his perspective will change along the 30 days, since he'll obv start very pro-terran.
It's also an epic publicity job, hadn't thought of that at first^^
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United States23455 Posts
Very strange to see a protoss logo next to Sjow in the streams section
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wow he likes challenge :D
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I'm tempted to try and snipe him, lol
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United States23455 Posts
Currently rank 11 Gold. He's well on his way.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 03 2013 01:16 Darkhoarse wrote:
Currently rank 11 Gold. He's well on his way.
I'm rank 2 Platinum, am I also well on my way? ^^
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United States23455 Posts
On December 03 2013 01:19 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 01:16 Darkhoarse wrote:
Currently rank 11 Gold. He's well on his way. I'm rank 2 Platinum, am I also well on my way? ^^
You can probably shoot for top 10 GM.
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United States97276 Posts
On December 03 2013 01:19 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 01:16 Darkhoarse wrote:
Currently rank 11 Gold. He's well on his way. I'm rank 2 Platinum, am I also well on my way? ^^
Just blame MMR decay
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Since Sjow is a low apm player this is a good choice for him. Protoss players just need less of it to be as good as a terran
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Wow he's really really bad at P. This will be fun to follow.
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On December 03 2013 01:20 Shellshock wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 01:19 Zealously wrote:On December 03 2013 01:16 Darkhoarse wrote:
Currently rank 11 Gold. He's well on his way. I'm rank 2 Platinum, am I also well on my way? ^^ Just blame MMR decay
Made me laugh and cry ;(
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kinda impressed that sjow just keeps going. it was so incredibly long ago that ppl actually had expectations on him, like in the beta. since then he just pulls the occasional upset
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Would be funny if its just for PR. Can´t remember sjow having 3K viewers on a monday.
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On December 03 2013 01:15 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm tempted to try and snipe him, lol
Please do it!!! hahahaha
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considering the large amount of PvP he most likely has to play when he comes to masters he might not make it. But then I guess he can coinflip his way to GM :o
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He made some nice publicity for himself. More people watching him than Dimaga lol.
I also almost started to watch.
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''oracles every game, best build ever ''
he seems to be enjoying himself lolll
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Low master achieved! h
Maybe GM 50 in a week?
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On December 03 2013 03:51 bearhug wrote:
Low master achieved! h
Maybe GM 50 in a week?
I would hope so. He has the mechanics to get any of the three races to masters. Low GM shouldn't be a huge problem.
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United States23455 Posts
I'm going to go with he did this to get a bump in stream viewers. Mission success.
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I hope he'll make it work
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I just watched his last game... He's 1A into everything. No army splitting, no blinking, no nothing. He needs to split his army and put his MSC at a separate hotkey at the very least.
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United States23455 Posts
First day is basically what you'd expect. He'll get better.
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His mechanic as a pro is surprisingly bad.
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Can someone give us a writeup of his games so far? Is it really all oracles that he's making? Any notable players he played against?any silly losses?
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He's starting to use more of the tech tree. he seems to be hovering around top 8 Dia atm. (EU Ladder I think).
He'll get there. Impressive first day however.
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On December 03 2013 03:57 Darkhoarse wrote:
I'm going to go with he did this to get a bump in stream viewers. Mission success.
Then wouldn't it be awkward if he reached top 50 GM and had to follow through with the promise of switching to Protoss?
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lol just watched some of his games. He's doing awful right now imo, pretty terrible army control. He needs to learn how to control way better
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On December 03 2013 04:14 Anachromy wrote:
He's starting to use more of the tech tree. he seems to be hovering around top 8 Dia atm. (EU Ladder I think).
He'll get there. Impressive first day however.
Diamond for a pro. Yes very impressive. Getting to masters with your off-race in a day shouldn't be a problem for any high masters player.
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On December 03 2013 04:07 geokilla wrote:
I just watched his last game... He's 1A into everything. No army splitting, no blinking, no nothing. He needs to split his army and put his MSC at a separate hotkey at the very least.
If you are far enough ahead, you can do that with any army. But he will be bummed out when he tries to block those stalkers and throws down an ff instead. Soon the amazingly funny looses will come.
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United States23455 Posts
On December 03 2013 04:15 Ctesias wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 03:57 Darkhoarse wrote:
I'm going to go with he did this to get a bump in stream viewers. Mission success. Then wouldn't it be awkward if he reached top 50 GM and had to follow through with the promise of switching to Protoss?
Think of it as a win/win. If he makes it, he might as well have switched anyway. If he doesn't, he had stream viewers man.
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On December 03 2013 04:13 ggofthejungle wrote:
Can someone give us a writeup of his games so far? Is it really all oracles that he's making? Any notable players he played against?any silly losses?
He's still in Platinum league, not much to summarize yet. Yes, he's using a lot of oracles, but it's pretty much pointless to make any conclusions, he's still figuring stuff out.
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He lost 2 PvPs to low league players, and he Blink all-ins almost all his PvTs :p.
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On December 03 2013 04:27 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 04:13 ggofthejungle wrote:
Can someone give us a writeup of his games so far? Is it really all oracles that he's making? Any notable players he played against?any silly losses? He's still in Platinum league, not much to summarize yet. Yes, he's using a lot of oracles, but it's pretty much pointless to make any conclusions, he's still figuring stuff out.
Well... now he is rank 2 diamond with 19W 3L.
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He basically went on an 18 game winning streak before losing a game to a Zerg where he tried an immortal/sentry pressure while taking a third. He messed up his FF's really poorly, so he lost (the Zerg was either a top diamond or a low masters player).
Most of his games he's just macroing up and a-moving to the victory, except in PvP. Of course this won't work on the higher levels - but still, an 18 game win streak to start off isn't terrible. He might have to start microing his units soon, though, or he won't have a chance against Zerg
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Double post -_- fml, that quote button is getting ever closer to that edit button these days please delete this
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On December 03 2013 04:42 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 04:27 ACrow wrote:On December 03 2013 04:13 ggofthejungle wrote:
Can someone give us a writeup of his games so far? Is it really all oracles that he's making? Any notable players he played against?any silly losses? He's still in Platinum league, not much to summarize yet. Yes, he's using a lot of oracles, but it's pretty much pointless to make any conclusions, he's still figuring stuff out. Well... now he is rank 2 diamond with 19W 3L.
Almost good as I am. I have 57 wins 3 losses rank 1 diamond. I didnt play single match last season. This season started again :D (im toss)
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On December 03 2013 04:45 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 04:42 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 04:27 ACrow wrote:On December 03 2013 04:13 ggofthejungle wrote:
Can someone give us a writeup of his games so far? Is it really all oracles that he's making? Any notable players he played against?any silly losses? He's still in Platinum league, not much to summarize yet. Yes, he's using a lot of oracles, but it's pretty much pointless to make any conclusions, he's still figuring stuff out. Well... now he is rank 2 diamond with 19W 3L. Almost good as I am. I have 57 wins 3 losses rank 1 diamond. I didnt play single match last season. This season started again :D (im toss)
Patchtosses everywhere
e: our Patchtoss sjow just hit rank one and defeated a master zerg.
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On December 03 2013 04:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 04:07 geokilla wrote:
I just watched his last game... He's 1A into everything. No army splitting, no blinking, no nothing. He needs to split his army and put his MSC at a separate hotkey at the very least. If you are far enough ahead, you can do that with any army. But he will be bummed out when he tries to block those stalkers and throws down an ff instead. Soon the amazingly funny looses will come.
He was behind the whole game. He researched blink and barely used it.
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This is what I don't understand. He makes it to top Diamond in day, and I've been working and studying hard just to get above Gold....
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On December 03 2013 04:52 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:This is what I don't understand. He makes it to top Diamond in day, and I've been working and studying hard just to get above Gold....
any master player can do that. the same way you would probably get easily to silver if you switched to another race
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sjow playing toss is quite hilarious Though beating up diamond/master players should be the most normal thing for like every pro who is offracing.
Can't wait for him to meet higher level players. And whether "toss is imba" will still apply - or not
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On December 03 2013 04:56 Doublemint wrote:sjow playing toss is quite hilarious Though beating up diamond/master players should be the most normal thing for like every pro who is offracing. Can't wait for him to meet higher level players. And whether "toss is imba" will still apply - or not
I think it will be harder, because toss is no one-trick-pony. You need to learn super-cheesy builds, all-ins, pressures, macro builds, solid defense etc etc.
I can't tell really if these how hard are all these things at GM level but there is a lot of them for sure.
Meanwhile Sjow beats a top-8 master zerg in a baserace, even thou he forgot to build the MCS. "Play for one week - win GSL" - says Sjow.
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On December 03 2013 04:52 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:This is what I don't understand. He makes it to top Diamond in day, and I've been working and studying hard just to get above Gold....
After all it's all about game sense. You just need to understand how sc2 works, what counters what. You dont need perfect build. Just counter what enemy is doing.
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Well, he called his account "PatchToss" which I found amusing, but got bored very quickly watching his stream. I've only been watching for a short time but 3 out of the 4 last games he's won he's just bitched about how he shouldn't of won and how toss is imba. Got to be honest, I'm hoping he fails.
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On December 03 2013 04:52 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
This is what I don't understand. He makes it to top Diamond in day, and I've been working and studying hard just to get above Gold....
After all it's all about game sense. You just need to understand how sc2 works, what counters what. You dont need perfect build. Just counter what enemy is doing.
This is how protoss works haahaha HOnestly as protoss you just need good Tech flow mechanics and utilize the tools you are given and you can get really really far....
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On December 03 2013 05:04 Greendotz wrote:
Well, he called his account "PatchToss" which I found amusing, but got bored very quickly watching his stream. I've only been watching for a short time but 3 out of the 4 last games he's won he's just bitched about how he shouldn't of won and how toss is imba. Got to be honest, I'm hoping he fails.
The concept of a pro b*tching that he shouldn't have won against a diamond level NA player makes me laugh.
When you are salty, you will find anything to complain about
On December 03 2013 05:05 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 04:52 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
This is what I don't understand. He makes it to top Diamond in day, and I've been working and studying hard just to get above Gold....
After all it's all about game sense. You just need to understand how sc2 works, what counters what. You dont need perfect build. Just counter what enemy is doing. This is how protoss works haahaha HOnestly as protoss you just need good Tech flow mechanics and utilize the tools you are given and you can get really really far....
This just in, toss is the only race you can win with when you utilize the tools you are given.
To win as T and Z, you have to hack the game to access tools you were not originally given.
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So he switched for a PvP Ladder, EU ladder is like PvProleague then?
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On December 03 2013 05:04 Greendotz wrote:
Well, he called his account "PatchToss" which I found amusing, but got bored very quickly watching his stream. I've only been watching for a short time but 3 out of the 4 last games he's won he's just bitched about how he shouldn't of won and how toss is imba. Got to be honest, I'm hoping he fails.
He will if he keeps that up. I think this is how Idra would act if he played Protoss. I know he just macroed his way up to high masters with Terran because he could.
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For a pro player, he's awfully slow.
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Sjow says he's about to play vs Thorzain in a cup. Well, time to put his toss powers to a real test I guess.
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On December 03 2013 05:17 scypio wrote:
Sjow says he's about to play vs Thorzain in a cup. Well, time to put his toss powers to a real test I guess.
Gonna be funny indeed ^_^
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On December 03 2013 05:17 scypio wrote:
Sjow says he's about to play vs Thorzain in a cup. Well, time to put his toss powers to a real test I guess.
Since he is losing to diamond players i assume it won't end well
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Sjow POV LR :D
 Thorzain vs  Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE.
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
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United States23455 Posts
Sjow is playing toss in this showmatch on his first day of toss? GL man.
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On December 03 2013 05:38 Darkhoarse wrote:
Sjow is playing toss in this showmatch on his first day of toss? GL man.
No, he is playing in a tournament.
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On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. 0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left. 1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes. 3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot. 4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked. 4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker. 5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still. 6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
lol what a joke so far haha Why is he blink all-inning every game anyway I thought he was seriously interested in learning toss
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is it only me or does he play somewhat slow compared to other high level protoss?(or pros in general)
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On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh.
15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth.
16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies.
Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0
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United States23455 Posts
On December 03 2013 05:39 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:38 Darkhoarse wrote:
Sjow is playing toss in this showmatch on his first day of toss? GL man. No, he is playing in a tournament.
Oh well that's even worse
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there are foreigners that offrace better just4fun
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God that was painful but so satisfying lol
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On December 03 2013 05:40 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh. 15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth. 16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies. Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0
Thorzain vs Sjow g2 Akilon Wastes.
0:00 Sjow spawns top left.
3:00 same gate-gas-core opening from sjow. He makes a zealot this time.
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On December 03 2013 05:43 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:40 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh. 15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth. 16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies. Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0 Thorzain vs Sjow g2 Akilon Wastes. 0:00 Sjow spawns top left.
Keep it coming!
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Canada13389 Posts
On December 03 2013 05:39 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. 0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left. 1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes. 3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot. 4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked. 4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker. 5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still. 6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM. lol what a joke so far haha Why is he blink all-inning every game anyway I thought he was seriously interested in learning toss
He's in a cup atm, and playing toss vs tzain, the blink all in is his best bet there
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On December 03 2013 05:43 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:40 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh. 15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth. 16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies. Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0 Thorzain vs Sjow g2 Akilon Wastes. 0:00 Sjow spawns top left. 3:00 same gate-gas-core opening from sjow. He makes a zealot this time.
4:20 exp for sjow. Chases away the reaper with first stalker. MSC is out.
5:20 sjow attacks with zealot stalker and MSC. Tzain lifts his nat.
7:15 1gate exp into msc pressure into twiligth into blink. Adding 3 more gates now.
8:15 Tzain drops widow mines and marines. no detection for sjow.
9:35 robo completes, obs starts. blink is done.
11:00 11 stalkers blink into tzains main. He has two tanks, MM and a third CC. All stalkers die. And the msc.
12:30 frontal assault with zealot and stalkers. Somehow he breaks through and Tzain dies. W t f. Sjow is crying.
Thorzain vs Sjow g2 - sjow wins.
1:1
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Thorzain did 4 cc, douple ups...
Even plat would win that by all in like sjow did :D
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On December 03 2013 05:53 InfusedTT.DaZe wrote:
won vs thorzain ROFLMAO
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blink good strat/race/unit/etc
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Thorzain vs Sjow g3 Bel'shir vestige.
0:00 sjow spawns bottom
1:00 proxy pylon at tzain's third.
2:34 proxy gate done. second pylon at home. 14 probes
3:00 getting gas. 20 supply for sjow, 16 probes.
3:20 zealot kills scv building the cc. second zealot runs to main. first marine making for tzain.
5:51 he kills some scvs. Tzain cancels the nat. sjow kills second tzains depot. Zealots fighting. two more gates at home. warpagate research starts.
7:51 5 stalkrest, 2 zealots, sentry. MSC . warpgates open attack.
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tzain went cc first vs proxy gates, diamond toss should win let's see sjow
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hahahahahahahyahahahhahahaah
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On December 03 2013 05:56 scypio wrote: Thorzain vs Sjow g3 Bel'shir vestige. 0:00 sjow spawns bottom 1:00 proxy pylon at tzain's third. 2:34 proxy gate done. second pylon at home. 14 probes 3:00 getting gas. 20 supply for sjow, 16 probes. 3:20 zealot kills scv building the cc. second zealot runs to main. first marine making for tzain. 5:51 he kills some scvs. Tzain cancels the nat. sjow kills second tzains depot. Zealots fighting. two more gates at home. warpagate research starts. 7:51 5 stalkrest, 2 zealots, sentry. MSC . warpgates open attack.
9:25 3 stalkers still alive in the main. Thorzain ggs.
Thorzain vs Sjow 1:2
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
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LMFAO this is so hilarious
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And Sjow wins again with a horribly executed all in LOL
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Hahahahaha this is hilarious xD
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Is Thorzain still playing fulltime? Someone from EG needs to give him a spanking. Rather embarassing. =/
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On December 03 2013 06:02 Zealously wrote:
u wot m8
This.
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On December 03 2013 06:03 eonDE wrote:
Is Thorzain still playing fulltime? Someone from EG needs to give him a spanking. Rather embarassing. =/
He started his studies in august i think, so no, not full time.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 03 2013 06:03 eonDE wrote:
Is Thorzain still playing fulltime? Someone from EG needs to give him a spanking. Rather embarassing. =/
Seems fairly obvious that he was joking around
I mean, not even I would go 3CC vs proxy gates
NOT EVEN I
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damn, LR is hard. Proxy gate vs cc first - pretty good build.
The overall execution (or the followup) was a bit sloppy, as Sjow spent critical amount of time supply blocked. Also the fact that Thorzain build a second CC instead of some bunkers + tech helped him.
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It's clearly a conspiracy by sjow and thorzain to try and get terran buffed/toss nerfed
CLEARLY
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it's bo5
from the twitch chat:
morrow: this is a tournament game, the winner plays against me in a bo5. the winner if that qualifies to the top4 final of Svecup
Thorzain vs Sjow g4 Frost.
0:00 Sjow spans top left.
2:20 Nexus first.
4:20 reaper arrives. Sjow chases it with probes and zealot.
6:55 MSC chases the reaper away. robo and stargate done for Sjow. Guess he's doing a two-base 1-1-1.
7:45 Oracle on the loose.
8:35 Oracle does almost nothing and almost dies. Tzain has turrets ready.
9:00 Sjow supply blocked at 60.
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I see Sjow knows the "go down every tech path route with no units because I have MSC" strategy.
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On December 03 2013 06:08 scypio wrote:it's bo5 from the twitch chat: morrow: this is a tournament game, the winner plays against me in a bo5. the winner if that qualifies to the top4 final of Svecup Thorzain vs Sjow g4 Frost. 0:00 Sjow spans top left. 2:20 Nexus first. 4:20 reaper arrives. Sjow chases it with probes and zealot. 6:55 MSC chases the reaper away. robo and stargate done for Sjow. Guess he's doing a two-base 1-1-1. 7:45 Oracle on the loose. 8:35 Oracle does almost nothing and almost dies. Tzain has turrets ready. 9:00 Sjow supply blocked at 60.
10:40 3 immortals are done. Void ray done. Robo bay warping in. Chases away a drop, looses a pylon.
11:37 denies drop, chases mvacs with VR, kills one. Pretty nice snipe.
13:40 Tzain starts more drop play, Supply blocked at 116. Has templar archives and 1 collosus,couple HT's. third base building.
15:15 loses nat to a drop.
16:30 sjow moves out, triple drop into his main. he does good dmg in the nat and main of tzain but loses everything in his main
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United States97276 Posts
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On December 03 2013 06:11 KingofGods wrote:
I see Sjow knows the "go down every tech path route with no units because I have MSC" strategy.
Protoss not so easy after all
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On December 03 2013 06:13 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:08 scypio wrote:it's bo5 from the twitch chat: morrow: this is a tournament game, the winner plays against me in a bo5. the winner if that qualifies to the top4 final of Svecup Thorzain vs Sjow g4 Frost. 0:00 Sjow spans top left. 2:20 Nexus first. 4:20 reaper arrives. Sjow chases it with probes and zealot. 6:55 MSC chases the reaper away. robo and stargate done for Sjow. Guess he's doing a two-base 1-1-1. 7:45 Oracle on the loose. 8:35 Oracle does almost nothing and almost dies. Tzain has turrets ready. 9:00 Sjow supply blocked at 60. 10:40 3 immortals are done. Void ray done. Robo bay warping in. Chases away a drop, looses a pylon. 11:37 denies drop, chases mvacs with VR, kills one. Pretty nice snipe. 13:40 Tzain starts more drop play, Supply blocked at 116. Has templar archives and 1 collosus,couple HT's. third base building. 15:15 loses nat to a drop. 16:30 sjow moves out, triple drop into his main. he does good dmg in the nat and main of tzain but loses everything in his main
19:00 Tzain runs his buildings away. Sjow builds nexus in Tzains main.
20:09 "should have won this" says Sjow and GGs and Thorzains forces kill his units.,
Thorzain wins. 2:2
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Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level.
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This was a straightforward macro game and Thorzain had the edge all the time, since his first reaper attack.
g5 Polar Night.
Sjow vs Throzain.
0:00 Sjow spawns at the bottom
2:40 gate gas pylon core opening for sjow
3:30 scv scout in. zealot runs around. stalker otw.
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On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level.
That's because
1) Thorzain doesn't play great
2) Thorzain didn't use the 10 min push build which would have totally destroyed Sjow
3) It was a trade base game
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On December 03 2013 06:04 TeveT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:03 eonDE wrote:
Is Thorzain still playing fulltime? Someone from EG needs to give him a spanking. Rather embarassing. =/ He started his studies in august i think, so no, not full time.
tzain went 3-2 mc in 2 bo3 in the last WCS EU so he is not bad by any mean.
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On December 03 2013 06:24 scypio wrote:This was a straightforward macro game and Thorzain had the edge all the time, since his first reaper attack. g5 Polar Night. Sjow vs Throzain. 0:00 Sjow spawns at the bottom 2:40 gate gas pylon core opening for sjow 3:30 scv scout in. zealot runs around. stalker otw.
4:30 sjow chases away the repar. moves out with the little 1-1-1 (one zealot, one stalker, one msc )
5:40 tzain kills every unit in the 1-1-1. Expansion ready for sjow, so is for Tzain.
7:30 4g robo ready. 49/52 supply for sjow. looks a little dead.
9:00 cannons in both mineral lines.
9:45 builds proxy pylons, sees tanks and bunkres, loses obs to turret.
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On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level.
Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran.
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12519 Posts
Sjow is known for intelligent precise play with low APM.
Seems fitting to switch to Protoss. On racial APM comparisons Protoss consistently places the lowest of the three races. The difficulty of playing Protoss is related to the strengths of Sjow, he should do well. In fact, he probably should have tried that much earlier in the past.
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On December 03 2013 06:27 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:24 scypio wrote:This was a straightforward macro game and Thorzain had the edge all the time, since his first reaper attack. g5 Polar Night. Sjow vs Throzain. 0:00 Sjow spawns at the bottom 2:40 gate gas pylon core opening for sjow 3:30 scv scout in. zealot runs around. stalker otw. 4:30 sjow chases away the repar. moves out with the little 1-1-1 (one zealot, one stalker, one msc ) 5:40 tzain kills every unit in the 1-1-1. Expansion ready for sjow, so is for Tzain. 7:30 4g robo ready. 49/52 supply for sjow. looks a little dead. 9:00 cannons in both mineral lines. 9:45 builds proxy pylons, sees tanks and bunkres, loses obs to turret.
10:40 moves in anyway. stream stutters but I guess he dies now.
11:20 attack gets squashed but sjow has a third now
12:50 ... and some templars
13:20 kills hellions at the third.
14:40 130 supply for sjow.
15:00 145 supply. some archons.
16:00 warp prism inbound... denied. Archon attack denied. Tzain building CCs number 5,6,7 probably.
17:50 tzain has tanks and bunkers everywhere.
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I've been watching his stream, he really likes scrolling around a lot. (edge scroll)
He could do so much more if he used camera keys / the base cam key, especially with his low apm.
Strategically, he'll learn protoss fast, I think. He's a smart guy, his strength with terran were also strategic plays.
Top50 GM is far, far away right now.
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On December 03 2013 06:31 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:27 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 06:24 scypio wrote:This was a straightforward macro game and Thorzain had the edge all the time, since his first reaper attack. g5 Polar Night. Sjow vs Throzain. 0:00 Sjow spawns at the bottom 2:40 gate gas pylon core opening for sjow 3:30 scv scout in. zealot runs around. stalker otw. 4:30 sjow chases away the repar. moves out with the little 1-1-1 (one zealot, one stalker, one msc ) 5:40 tzain kills every unit in the 1-1-1. Expansion ready for sjow, so is for Tzain. 7:30 4g robo ready. 49/52 supply for sjow. looks a little dead. 9:00 cannons in both mineral lines. 9:45 builds proxy pylons, sees tanks and bunkres, loses obs to turret. 10:40 moves in anyway. stream stutters but I guess he dies now. 11:20 attack gets squashed but sjow has a third now 12:50 ... and some templars 13:20 kills hellions at the third. 14:40 130 supply for sjow. 15:00 145 supply. some archons. 16:00 warp prism inbound... denied. Archon attack denied. Tzain building CCs number 5,6,7 probably. 17:50 tzain has tanks and bunkers everywhere.
19:00 Sjow making fourth nexus at the bottom left. loses units randomly walking into siege fire. Tzain moves out.
20:40 hellbat siege tank ghost banshee for tzain. immortals ht archons for sjow. Sjow kinda holds. down to 104 supply
22:40 thorzain moves in for the kill... 3 VRs try to save the day but ghosts snipe them.
24:40 3 banshees attack the fourth. Minereals mined out. ghostmech kills the remaining army. Sjow ggs.
Sjow vs Throzain 2:3
"Next time I'll beat him... easy" says Sjow.
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On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran.
Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics.
Spoon terran also isn't appropriate at all here since G4 was a base-trade.
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On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics.
how do you dare to bring logic to the discussion
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On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics.
I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game.
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IN reality though this is one of his first days..... I tried offracing I feel like a fish out of water or a INfant trying to tie my shoes hahahaha its really weird lol
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Thorzain takes advantage of Sjow's inexperience with protoss in game 5 by going unconventional.
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On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game.
Well, Sjow said that he should have won G4 and with a little more practice he is bound to do that.
I trust his judgment on this.
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On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game.
Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them?
Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one.
Well, Sjow said that he should have won G4 and with a little more practice he is bound to do that.
If Sjow hadn't got giantly supply blocked twice early game. If he hadn't forgotten about the Oracle. If he had just overall had better macro (chrono usage + spending skill). If he actually had a plan on how to deal with drops. If he wasn't so incredibly slow about pulling probes to one of the drops.....
Then the timing attack he did would absolutely had killed Thorzain. But even after all those mistakes, he still had a shot of beating Thorzain if all of his HT's hadn't been clumped against the EMP.
His mistakes should be easily fixable as they simply are unforgiveable at master+ level. So yeh, if Thorzain continue to play at that level, then Sjow has a decent shot at beating him next game.
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On December 03 2013 06:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game. Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them? Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one.
the fight against negativity and whine against P should not be stopped.
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On December 03 2013 06:46 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game. Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them? Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one.
The live reports made it seem like he lost all the games buy the one wih the proxy gate. I was not aware he won two games, because it sure didn't seem like it from the reports.
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On December 03 2013 06:34 virpi wrote:
I've been watching his stream, he really likes scrolling around a lot. (edge scroll)
He could do so much more if he used camera keys / the base cam key, especially with his low apm.
Strategically, he'll learn protoss fast, I think. He's a smart guy, his strength with terran were also strategic plays.
Top50 GM is far, far away right now.
Really? He made Masters today
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On December 03 2013 06:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:46 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game. Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them? Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one. The live reports made it seem like he lost all the games buy the one wih the proxy gate. I was not aware he won two games, because it sure didn't seem like it from the reports.
On December 03 2013 05:46 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:43 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:40 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh. 15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth. 16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies. Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0 Thorzain vs Sjow g2 Akilon Wastes. 0:00 Sjow spawns top left. 3:00 same gate-gas-core opening from sjow. He makes a zealot this time. 4:20 exp for sjow. Chases away the reaper with first stalker. MSC is out. 5:20 sjow attacks with zealot stalker and MSC. Tzain lifts his nat. 7:15 1gate exp into msc pressure into twiligth into blink. Adding 3 more gates now. 8:15 Tzain drops widow mines and marines. no detection for sjow. 9:35 robo completes, obs starts. blink is done. 11:00 11 stalkers blink into tzains main. He has two tanks, MM and a third CC. All stalkers die. And the msc. 12:30 frontal assault with zealot and stalkers. Somehow he breaks through and Tzain dies. W t f. Sjow is crying. Thorzain vs Sjow g2 - sjow wins. 1:1
can't read and you accuse the live reporter ?
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On December 03 2013 06:49 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:46 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game. Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them? Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one. The live reports made it seem like he lost all the games buy the one wih the proxy gate. I was not aware he won two games, because it sure didn't seem like it from the reports.
You missed the part where he amoved a bunch of GW units into Tzains siege lines + MMM and won after Tzain built 4th cc...
In related news: Sjow just hit master.
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On December 03 2013 06:29 figq wrote:
Sjow is known for intelligent precise play with low APM.
Seems fitting to switch to Protoss. On racial APM comparisons Protoss consistently places the lowest of the three races. The difficulty of playing Protoss is related to the strengths of Sjow, he should do well. In fact, he probably should have tried that much earlier in the past.
Protoss APM is only "seemingly" lowest, because other races boost their APM with things like "zzzzzzzzzzz" or "aaaaaa".
It doesn't mean Protoss is played by slower players, or you can be slower with protoss than other races.
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On December 03 2013 06:52 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:49 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:46 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game. Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them? Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one. The live reports made it seem like he lost all the games buy the one wih the proxy gate. I was not aware he won two games, because it sure didn't seem like it from the reports. Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 05:46 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:43 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:40 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh. 15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth. 16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies. Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0 Thorzain vs Sjow g2 Akilon Wastes. 0:00 Sjow spawns top left. 3:00 same gate-gas-core opening from sjow. He makes a zealot this time. 4:20 exp for sjow. Chases away the reaper with first stalker. MSC is out. 5:20 sjow attacks with zealot stalker and MSC. Tzain lifts his nat. 7:15 1gate exp into msc pressure into twiligth into blink. Adding 3 more gates now. 8:15 Tzain drops widow mines and marines. no detection for sjow. 9:35 robo completes, obs starts. blink is done. 11:00 11 stalkers blink into tzains main. He has two tanks, MM and a third CC. All stalkers die. And the msc. 12:30 frontal assault with zealot and stalkers. Somehow he breaks through and Tzain dies. W t f. Sjow is crying. Thorzain vs Sjow g2 - sjow wins. 1:1 can't read and you accuse the live reporter ?
Maybe I should have written that Thorzain got protossed in G2 :D
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On December 03 2013 06:29 figq wrote:
Sjow is known for intelligent precise play with low APM.
Seems fitting to switch to Protoss. On racial APM comparisons Protoss consistently places the lowest of the three races. The difficulty of playing Protoss is related to the strengths of Sjow, he should do well. In fact, he probably should have tried that much earlier in the past.
Not sure about that one, while it is true that Protoss average apm tends to be the lowest. Usually the apm pikes during battle are the highest for Protoss.
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On December 03 2013 06:53 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 06:52 sAsImre wrote:On December 03 2013 06:49 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:46 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:42 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:39 Hider wrote:On December 03 2013 06:29 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 06:21 Hider wrote:
Given how awfull Sjow actually plays, these games are way too close. If I didn't know it was Sjow playing, I would have thought it was diamond-league level. Please, 3 cc vs proxy gate is a game that even the most nubby Protoss should win. He got smashed in two other games and only lasted as long as he did because he was against the spoon Terran. Did you watch G4? That was way too close and Sjow made multiple big mistakes and overall just showed bad mechanics. I can't , I'm at work. I was commenting on the losing to a proxy gate vs 3cc. You would have to be magic to win as a Terran in that game. Then why on earth are you commenting on the series and talking about how he got smashed in the 2 other games when you haven't watched them? Further, your post easily ignored that Sjow won 2 games and not just one. The live reports made it seem like he lost all the games buy the one wih the proxy gate. I was not aware he won two games, because it sure didn't seem like it from the reports. On December 03 2013 05:46 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:43 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:40 scypio wrote:On December 03 2013 05:29 scypio wrote:Sjow POV LR :D Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE. + Show Spoiler +
0:00 Thorzain spawns top right. Sjow spawns bottom left.
1:55 13gate 14 gas from sjow. second pylon at 15. chronoboosting probes.
3:00 cyber core and second gas otw. No zealot.
4:00 Tzains reaper arrives. Expo eng-bay blocked.
4:33 Sjow kills the reaper with his first stalker.
5:00 3 more gates from Sjow. no expansion still.
6:30 4 gates opening. Thorzain is ready with a bunker and a marauder.
8:00 supply blocked at 41 supply. blinks into main with 8 stalkers.
9:26: blinks in with 16 stalkers. Tzain has medivicas and stim. half of the stalkers die.
10:30 expansion for Sjow building. 53 supply, 13 stalkers with blink.
12:30 Sjow at 62 supply. Tzain with a ton of MMM.
14:20 sjow at 86 supply. building templar archives. Tzain moving out, takes down the MCS. End is nigh. 15:45 Tzain with SCV train? or possibly just taking a fourth. 16:34 SCV train it is. 8+ medivacs, a ton of MM and a ton of scvs. everything dies. Thorzain vs Sjow g1 Yeonsu LE 1:0 Thorzain vs Sjow g2 Akilon Wastes. 0:00 Sjow spawns top left. 3:00 same gate-gas-core opening from sjow. He makes a zealot this time. 4:20 exp for sjow. Chases away the reaper with first stalker. MSC is out. 5:20 sjow attacks with zealot stalker and MSC. Tzain lifts his nat. 7:15 1gate exp into msc pressure into twiligth into blink. Adding 3 more gates now. 8:15 Tzain drops widow mines and marines. no detection for sjow. 9:35 robo completes, obs starts. blink is done. 11:00 11 stalkers blink into tzains main. He has two tanks, MM and a third CC. All stalkers die. And the msc. 12:30 frontal assault with zealot and stalkers. Somehow he breaks through and Tzain dies. W t f. Sjow is crying. Thorzain vs Sjow g2 - sjow wins. 1:1 can't read and you accuse the live reporter ? Maybe I should have written that Thorzain got protossed in G2 :D
Nah, the text was just super small on my phone. My mistake. I apologize for the confusion.
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"I think I figured out PvP" says Sjow right after his oracle goes up to 11 kills and his opponent ggs.
Sjow seems to like oracle in PvP a lot.
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HuK trolling him hard on twitter :p
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On December 03 2013 07:00 scypio wrote:
"I think I figured out PvP" says Sjow right after his oracle goes up to 11 kills and his opponent ggs.
Sjow seems to like oracle in PvP a lot.
It's a good way to end the match before you get to the bullshit part. You might not win, but it will be fast.
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Another game and another PvP... opponent goes for a crappy cannon rush, Sjow counters with oracle msc. Rank 24 master.
TvP incoming. The enemy knows it's Sjow. He can watch the stream
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Sjow is being stomped by mines like a noob, lol.
Edit: His nexuses have full energy.
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On December 03 2013 07:15 darkness wrote:
Sjow is being stomped by mines like a noob, lol.
He is a protoss noob. And got masters in less than a day.
Nice doom drop :D
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On December 03 2013 07:00 scypio wrote:
"I think I figured out PvP" says Sjow right after his oracle goes up to 11 kills and his opponent ggs.
Sjow seems to like oracle in PvP a lot.
like i said much earlier in this thread...
he'll lean on the Oracle the way he leaned on the Banshee...
he can make a Banshee do everything but cook breakfast and do the laundry.
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manner mules... The T had a nice opening and pretty good macro this game.
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LoL! I tune in to see him get manner muled. Silly Protoss, you don't push out when while securing a 3rd.
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I think it will be tough for him to learn a high enough level pvp in one month to make top 50. I'll bet his pvt will be at that level though.
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On December 03 2013 07:21 lamprey1 wrote:
he can make a Banshee do everything but cook breakfast and do the laundry.
Pretty sexist remark considering the Banshee pilot is a woman.
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On December 03 2013 07:27 The_Darkness wrote:
I think it will be tough for him to learn a high enough level pvp in one month to make top 50. I'll bet his pvt will be at that level though.
PvZ is no walk in the park either. He is going to have a lot of games that end in "fuck, mutas"
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Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On December 03 2013 07:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:27 The_Darkness wrote:
I think it will be tough for him to learn a high enough level pvp in one month to make top 50. I'll bet his pvt will be at that level though. PvZ is no walk in the park either. He is going to have a lot of games that end in "fuck, mutas"
Dear Sjow,
If you are reading this watch all of San's games at IEM. Just 4 gate zealot + msc all zergs.
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On December 03 2013 07:21 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:15 darkness wrote:
Sjow is being stomped by mines like a noob, lol. He is a protoss noob. And got masters in less than a day. Nice doom drop :D
Any GM player can get Master in less than a day with the other 2 races ~_~.
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5 gates + colossus tech on 1 pylon, the Artosis pylon is strong this game :D
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On December 03 2013 07:32 stuchiu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:31 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 07:27 The_Darkness wrote:
I think it will be tough for him to learn a high enough level pvp in one month to make top 50. I'll bet his pvt will be at that level though. PvZ is no walk in the park either. He is going to have a lot of games that end in "fuck, mutas" Dear Sjow, If you are reading this watch all of San's games at IEM. Just 4 gate zealot + msc all zergs.
There can only be one Zealotking
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He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
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On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time.
The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it.
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How comes he still has such a high bonus pool of 200pt+ after 24 games? :o
I played like a single game in the beginning of the season and now only have 340pt...
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Well in the following weeks his stream numbers will go up for sure.
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On December 03 2013 07:49 JustPassingBy wrote:
How comes he still has such a high bonus pool of 200pt+ after 24 games? :o
I played like a single game in the beginning of the season and now only have 340pt...
Higher leagues have higher bonus pools if i'm not mistaken. When you get promoted, you also get the amount of bonus points that you missed out on in lower leagues.
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On December 03 2013 07:59 SolidSMD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:49 JustPassingBy wrote:
How comes he still has such a high bonus pool of 200pt+ after 24 games? :o
I played like a single game in the beginning of the season and now only have 340pt... Higher leagues have higher bonus pools if i'm not mistaken. When you get promoted, you also get the amount of bonus points that you missed out on in lower leagues.
But didn't he start at a low league and only started playing more games on that acount today? But nevermind, I think I recall watching him playing some unranked games, they obviously leave your bonus pool untouched while they are still listed in that statistics.
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On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it.
A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately.
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On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately.
You think people can't think for themselves after losing to protoss on ladder that they hate protoss?
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On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately.
Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi).
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On December 03 2013 08:20 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi).
If you hate protoss, you hate 33% of the game. But the problem is not the hate directed to the race per se, but hating the person that play the race.
I play protoss on NA ladder and the past weeks having been anything but pleasant. I'm almost blocking all the terran players in the beginning in the game to avoid the almost certain "die protoss faggot", "i really wish you get cancer stupid piece of crap", "you would be gold playing a real race noob"....
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On December 03 2013 08:24 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:20 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi). If you hate protoss, you hate 33% of the game. But the problem is not the hate directed to the race per se, but hating the person that play the race. I play protoss on NA ladder and the past weeks having been anything but pleasant. I'm almost blocking all the terran players in the beginning in the game to avoid the almost certain "die protoss faggot", "i really wish you get cancer stupid piece of crap", "you would be gold playing a real race noob"....
Game is unfair -> people get real frustrated. Pretty simple.
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On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately.
It's not really 'lately', it's always been the same. Weren't you there when protoss was the "ghey" race at the end of 2010, or when terrans would abuse us every game at the end of 2012 even though no protoss had figured out what to do against ghost viking yet?
It's frequent for a game to contain something to loathe, so that the majority of players can ally against it. It just happens to be protoss in SC2's case.
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On December 03 2013 08:28 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:24 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 08:20 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi). If you hate protoss, you hate 33% of the game. But the problem is not the hate directed to the race per se, but hating the person that play the race. I play protoss on NA ladder and the past weeks having been anything but pleasant. I'm almost blocking all the terran players in the beginning in the game to avoid the almost certain "die protoss faggot", "i really wish you get cancer stupid piece of crap", "you would be gold playing a real race noob".... Game is unfair -> people get real frustrated. Pretty simple.
But it's not our fault. Most of us just chose protoss when the game first came out and stuck to it since. And I'm not even convinced P is op vs T yet anyway.
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On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately.
Don't worry about that. Guys like Greg always bitched about Protoss. Anyone who remembers his remarks about MC when Bosstoss was running good should know this. Don't hate the player; hate the game ha. If I were on the other end of it I'd just ask, "Why do you still play then? Oh that's right because this is your livelihood." If you aren't passionate about what you're playing then it's time to switch things up if you really want to be happy in life. Otherwise, you're just on borrowed time.
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On December 03 2013 08:28 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:24 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 08:20 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi). If you hate protoss, you hate 33% of the game. But the problem is not the hate directed to the race per se, but hating the person that play the race. I play protoss on NA ladder and the past weeks having been anything but pleasant. I'm almost blocking all the terran players in the beginning in the game to avoid the almost certain "die protoss faggot", "i really wish you get cancer stupid piece of crap", "you would be gold playing a real race noob".... Game is unfair -> people get real frustrated. Pretty simple.
I can hate on protoss without hating protoss, if that makes sense. If I'm ever cheering too much for the non-protoss player then that is because I've seen too much protoss already, just because of boredom, not because of balance whine.
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Terran has gotten their fair share of hate too, 2010 up to queen buff in 2012. Then all of HotS up until WCS season 3.
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On December 03 2013 08:28 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:24 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 08:20 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi). If you hate protoss, you hate 33% of the game. But the problem is not the hate directed to the race per se, but hating the person that play the race. I play protoss on NA ladder and the past weeks having been anything but pleasant. I'm almost blocking all the terran players in the beginning in the game to avoid the almost certain "die protoss faggot", "i really wish you get cancer stupid piece of crap", "you would be gold playing a real race noob".... Game is unfair -> people get real frustrated. Pretty simple.
When people perceive the game to be unfair*
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On December 03 2013 08:19 KingofGods wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. You think people can't think for themselves after losing to protoss on ladder that they hate protoss?
This is the Internet, where our prejudices affirmed, not contradicted.
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On December 03 2013 08:40 Valikyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:28 aTnClouD wrote:On December 03 2013 08:24 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 08:20 JustPassingBy wrote:On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Meh, should I ever hate on protoss, though I try not to and seriously hope that I never will, it's because the German national league EPS is flooded with them. Even if you take out the prominent players Hasuobs and Socke, you will still find a lot more skilled protoss players (Showtime, Tarrantius, Acro, Monty, Knowme, CPU) than terran players (Heromarine, kauP, Krass, Goody) or zerg players (Hanfy, Salt, Delphi). If you hate protoss, you hate 33% of the game. But the problem is not the hate directed to the race per se, but hating the person that play the race. I play protoss on NA ladder and the past weeks having been anything but pleasant. I'm almost blocking all the terran players in the beginning in the game to avoid the almost certain "die protoss faggot", "i really wish you get cancer stupid piece of crap", "you would be gold playing a real race noob".... Game is unfair -> people get real frustrated. Pretty simple. But it's not our fault. Most of us just chose protoss when the game first came out and stuck to it since. And I'm not even convinced P is op vs T yet anyway.
ye same playing protoss since broodwar... Dont get these flamer persons and anyway if protoss is OP why did the last tournaments went zerg protoss terran as winner and also taeja destroyed every protoss.
Anyway i hate Pro Gamer that switch so late their race feels odd to me.
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It is a common issue people seem to have of blaming everything but themselves for a loss when really they only have themselves to blame.
Sjow is a professional player, of course he is going to reach gm, it remains to be seen whether he will make top 50 in a month but we will see.
He once beat Life in a TvZ, he would have to beat (insert top 10 player here) in the later stages of a major tournament to even match what he did with terran. There is some novelty value in seeing a player focus on what was previously an off race, do not fool yourself that it is has anything to do with balance, however satisfying it might be in seeing a terran now play protoss beating terrans.
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God, I so wish there was a way to go back in time and have stats for things like how many non korean terrans were "x rank." The best terrans, BW or SC 2, always kept winning, while the non korean terrans kept defying statistics (if the game was anywhere close to being balanced in strength between the races). There's 0 difference now. I just can't believe how fervent the imbal people are now or how little anyone mentioned it/cared back in BW. Same deal but completely different responses/views now.
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if he's pvp ain't good he's probably going to be demoted to masters, considering protoss eu numbers
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On December 03 2013 08:42 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Don't worry about that. Guys like Greg always bitched about Protoss. Anyone who remembers his remarks about MC when Bosstoss was running good should know this. Don't hate the player; hate the game ha. If I were on the other end of it I'd just ask, "Why do you still play then? Oh that's right because this is your livelihood." If you aren't passionate about what you're playing then it's time to switch things up if you really want to be happy in life. Otherwise, you're just on borrowed time.
Well there's still a reason why there's 40+% protoss in every GM and only 23% terran at the moment. It's not because of some streamers opinions. Imo it clearly shows Protoss is the most useable race to be the best in the game. Nobody switches to terran.
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Will be really stupid if he can't reach his goal with an OP easy race
...or if he "realises" that toss is not much his style after hitting a wall on high masters or low GM
...or if he reaches top 50 but keeps playing terran, just because is too dirty to play toss (still getting no results as terran)
...or if he reaches top 50, switches, and then fail to be competitive as toss, just like almost all foreigners except Naniwa.
...or makes a fame as cheeser like stardust
I just can't see the good angle of all this "jorney" or how any result will prove that Terran is UP All pro players are expected to climb the ladder on pure mechanics and game knowlodge. Atleast we had a fun plat to masters series with lots of blink all-ins and oracle play, and a nice boost on twitch.
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No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM
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On December 03 2013 09:03 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 08:42 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately. Don't worry about that. Guys like Greg always bitched about Protoss. Anyone who remembers his remarks about MC when Bosstoss was running good should know this. Don't hate the player; hate the game ha. If I were on the other end of it I'd just ask, "Why do you still play then? Oh that's right because this is your livelihood." If you aren't passionate about what you're playing then it's time to switch things up if you really want to be happy in life. Otherwise, you're just on borrowed time. Well there's still a reason why there's 40+% protoss in every GM and only 23% terran at the moment. It's not because of some streamers opinions. Imo it clearly shows Protoss is the most useable race to be the best in the game. Nobody switches to terran.
Who said that there are more protoss player because of streamers opinions?
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On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM
He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all.
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On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all.
Oh no, we will read into it. We will read into it so much. His story will be used as tinder to fuel balance arguments for years. The outcome will not matter, the evidence of protoss being ez pz is there for those who really want to find it.
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On December 03 2013 10:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Oh no, we will read into it. We will read into it so much. His story will be used as tinder to fuel balance arguments for years. The outcome will not matter, the evidence of protoss being ez pz is there for those who really want to find it.
![[image loading]](http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/24.gif)
The Book of SjoWmanship.
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On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all.
Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM.
If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true
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On December 03 2013 10:14 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:08 Plansix wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Oh no, we will read into it. We will read into it so much. His story will be used as tinder to fuel balance arguments for years. The outcome will not matter, the evidence of protoss being ez pz is there for those who really want to find it. The Book of SjoWmanship.
...its like that joke is coming and you can't get out of the way. Well played sir.
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Taeja plays Protoss and Zerg at a high enough level to beat guys like NightEnd and Catz handily.
Enough with the balance whining. Being good at StarCraft revolves less around what race you play and more around how good your mechanics and game knowledge are.
As for balance win rates are 50% pretty much evenly for WCS events.
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On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true
Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark.
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On December 03 2013 10:26 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark.
That has nothing to do with his point, even if it isn't lategame the amount of apm still decides if you can execute strategy X.
Not that i would agree that his success(or the lack of it) proves anything, but your argument has nothing to do with the point people will try to make.
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On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
Do you actually mean the opposite ? Not a lot of pro players would dare making a race's switch, and he's doing so that he can prove either this race is clearly OP, or something is wrong or whatever you can name it. If not, then maybe we'll think twice before arguing about how unfair protoss' play is compared to the others races (Yes i'm biased, I too think this protoss race really has it easy).
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On December 03 2013 10:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:26 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark. That has nothing to do with his point, even if it isn't lategame the amount of apm still decides if you can execute strategy X. Not that i would agree that his success(or the lack of it) proves anything, but your argument has nothing to do with the point people will try to make.
It has everything to do with it because it fits right into his playstyle. SjoW isn't the type of player who sits back to take it to late game. The fact that Protoss is designed to play to SjoW's specifications means he should find some success with it. You don't need a lot of APM to be a successful player, lol. This is even true for BW. For instance look at Testie's Protoss. Enough said.
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On December 03 2013 10:26 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark.
Whether Toss is a more aggressive race, all-in race, or whatever, there is still that notion of Toss as a low APM race, meaning it's a mechanically more forgiving race.
I'm not arguing that at the highest level, protoss is imba, because then at high APMs, Terran can unlock their race "potential" and overcome/abuse the protoss weaknesses, which are due to their design mechanics.
I'm not arguing a person can't be successful with low APM. Look at Goody, Sjow, Elfi.
But if Goody were to switch to P, will he be more successful? If Elfi switched to T, will he be less successful?
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On December 03 2013 08:15 Tiaraju9 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 07:46 Nebuchad wrote:On December 03 2013 07:42 Tiaraju9 wrote:
He's doing a big disservice to the community with this. Each game he talks about how he shouldn't be winning and how protoss is imba and stupid and such.
Its just a bad "service" that will increase the protoss hate in our community. Its a very unprofessional way to deal with the game too.
He doesn't have that kind of power. The people who think protoss is shit will keep on thinking it, and the people who don't will keep on just the same. SjoW has been vocal about protoss for a long time. The way he comments after every game looks a bit forced to me, like he's trying to entertain us the IdrA way. I don't mind it. A lot of popular streamers talk shit about protoss. Idra, Destiny, Avilo... I blame this people for the protoss hate that have been around lately.
not at all, I just find it far more frustrating to lose vs protoss than terran or zerg. Everything about the race is really frustrating and annoying. So many annoying cheeses and gimmicks. The protoss hate probably wont ever go away, unfortunately.
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On December 03 2013 11:55 BakedButters wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:26 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark. Whether Toss is a more aggressive race, all-in race, or whatever, there is still that notion of Toss as a low APM race, meaning it's a mechanically more forgiving race. I'm not arguing that at the highest level, protoss is imba, because then at high APMs, Terran can unlock their race "potential" and overcome/abuse the protoss weaknesses, which are due to their design mechanics. I'm not arguing a person can't be successful with low APM. Look at Goody, Sjow, Elfi. But if Goody were to switch to P, will he be more successful? If Elfi switched to T, will he be less successful?
In this case, the Testie example is completely acceptable because he didn't just play Protoss. The Canadian was known as a race picker. He could play Zerg, Terran and Protoss at a highly respectable level. Once again, it's merely an example and APM can only take you so far. We've argued it so many times on this website that it's gone beyond tedious.
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What rank did he end up at today? Last I saw he was rank 24 master or something.
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On December 03 2013 09:03 ConCentrate405 wrote:
...or makes a fame as cheeser like stardust
Lol, that is pretty debatable.
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On December 03 2013 12:35 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 11:55 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:26 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark. Whether Toss is a more aggressive race, all-in race, or whatever, there is still that notion of Toss as a low APM race, meaning it's a mechanically more forgiving race. I'm not arguing that at the highest level, protoss is imba, because then at high APMs, Terran can unlock their race "potential" and overcome/abuse the protoss weaknesses, which are due to their design mechanics. I'm not arguing a person can't be successful with low APM. Look at Goody, Sjow, Elfi. But if Goody were to switch to P, will he be more successful? If Elfi switched to T, will he be less successful? In this case, the Testie example is completely acceptable because he didn't just play Protoss. The Canadian was known as a race picker. He could play Zerg, Terran and Protoss at a highly respectable level. Once again, it's merely an example and APM can only take you so far. We've argued it so many times on this website that it's gone beyond tedious.
Yes I agree APM can take you so far. But there is still a discrepancy in which race requires more meaningful APM to be successful, hence which race is mechanically easier, or more forgivable. This is simply due to how the three races are designed with very different macro mechanics and unit micro, causing some strategies and units to be more gimmicky and abusive.
But since Sjow is really only pro with low APM to switch race, it will give us more insight on how big this discrepancy on APM/mechanics is required for the different races, or is it really more smart decision making/ intuition of game/ knowledge of build orders, etc. that will make player more consistent and successful, and these skills can only come with time in mastering the game though time. You can argue that with time, your APM will also rise, but there is a ceiling for every pro. Some pro more mechanically challenged than others. I'm trying to figure out what race can take most advantageous at different levels of APM.
This was my point in the first post.
Again this is in the lowish APM area, and since most average SC2 players fall more into this area, we can see why there's a major lack of Terrans on ladder
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I'm happy for SjoW Hopefully a race-switch gives him new motivation and the ability to start kicking ass again
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His APM is low but the problem is his mechanics, he doesn't even use the base camera hotkey/ camera hotkey, everytime he moves around the base, he uses his mouse to drag the screen around
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His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units.
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On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote:
His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units.
but terran can also queue units, meaning they can "remember" to macro once and get a lot out of it if they are floating minerals. every time a protoss forgets he has lost a cycle for good
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On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote:
His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units.
Except Terran players can stack production cycles ahead of time by queuing units in their barracks, whereas you can't do that with Protoss's warpgates so you really need to hit your warpgate cycles at the exact time to keep your macro on par with Terran's.
EDIT: Ninja'd by negativedge
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On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote:
His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units.
You really rarely are going to chrono your warpgates, and chronoing your Robos/Stargates is a given. Terran don't float minerals as much because of queuing units, Protoss can never perfectly warp-in which is why you always have to make more warpgates than you can afford to constantly warp-in with.
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On December 03 2013 14:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 13:57 KingofGods wrote:
His minerals also float above 1k quite often. Protoss are more forgiving if they forget a production cycle because they can chronoboost to make up some of that time and they can warp in as soon as they remember where as terran have to wait 30+ seconds to get their units out after they remember to make units. Except Terran players can stack production cycles ahead of time by queuing units in their barracks, whereas you can't do that with Protoss's warpgates so you really need to hit your warpgate cycles at the exact time to keep your macro on par with Terran's. EDIT: Ninja'd by negativedge
Just don't convert to warpgate. Problem solved!!!!
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As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level).
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You can only queue units if you have minerals to spare which generally means you have already missed a production cycle or two. So you are never making up lost time, you are only trying to ensure you don't lose anymore time.
Even pro protoss players always, always have chronoboost to spare especially when the action gets more intense which would be the main cause of forgetting to produce.
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On December 03 2013 11:55 BakedButters wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 10:26 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 10:20 BakedButters wrote:On December 03 2013 10:03 StarStruck wrote:On December 03 2013 09:18 BakedButters wrote:
No if he doesn't reach his goal, then it shows that all races can be played a high level with lowish APM, and that Toss is not simply the race that can reach the highest play with the lowest amount of APM He's just one player guys. I wouldn't read much into it at all. Of course it's just one sample data. But his case is little unique; it's the fact that he has low APM, played Terran throughout SC2. If he can surpass his Terran skill playing Protoss in a short amount of time, then it will feed to the general negativity that Protoss is the race that can most abuse low APM. If he doesn't succeed, then the general statement that Terran is most APM intensive race is not very true Then I say look at the openings most common by Protoss players these days. We're more used to seeing them be the aggressors across the board. It shouldn't really be surprising if SjoW is able to win games anywhere from the twelve to sixteen minute mark. Whether Toss is a more aggressive race, all-in race, or whatever, there is still that notion of Toss as a low APM race, meaning it's a mechanically more forgiving race. I'm not arguing that at the highest level, protoss is imba, because then at high APMs, Terran can unlock their race "potential" and overcome/abuse the protoss weaknesses, which are due to their design mechanics. I'm not arguing a person can't be successful with low APM. Look at Goody, Sjow, Elfi. But if Goody were to switch to P, will he be more successful? If Elfi switched to T, will he be less successful?
I think Goody actually did switch for a short period. Could be it was just versus Protoss around the time he gave up on mech and went bio in that matchup.
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Can remember GoOdy beating Strelok with protoss in WoL in some online cup
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I watched a bit of Sjow's stream yesterday, quite entertaining! He was in platinum, advanced to diamond as I watched. Did he make it to masters before the end of the day?
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On December 03 2013 15:52 BaneRiders wrote:I watched a bit of Sjow's stream yesterday, quite entertaining! He was in platinum, advanced to diamond as I watched. Did he make it to masters before the end of the day?
Yes, on NA.
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On December 03 2013 14:59 KingofGods wrote:
You can only queue units if you have minerals to spare which generally means you have already missed a production cycle or two. So you are never making up lost time, you are only trying to ensure you don't lose anymore time.
Even pro protoss players always, always have chronoboost to spare especially when the action gets more intense which would be the main cause of forgetting to produce.
Obviously the same argument would be applicable to Protosses as well; chronoboosting your warp gates is rather silly if you're already macroing *so well* that you don't have any extra money to make more units (so why rush to open up the warp gate again?). At least with Terran, those with imperfect macro can queue units ahead of time and don't need to worry about "catching up" and using chrono boosts on warpgates instead of other structures.
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On December 03 2013 13:37 ETisME wrote:
His APM is low but the problem is his mechanics, he doesn't even use the base camera hotkey/ camera hotkey, everytime he moves around the base, he uses his mouse to drag the screen around
Camera hotkey isn't that useful, for exemple, Stephano didn't use them and was one of the best zerg early 2012. And he was zerg where I think camera location hotkey were the most useful. Demuslim uses them only on the early game but is still a very good macro player.
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On December 03 2013 15:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 14:59 KingofGods wrote:
You can only queue units if you have minerals to spare which generally means you have already missed a production cycle or two. So you are never making up lost time, you are only trying to ensure you don't lose anymore time.
Even pro protoss players always, always have chronoboost to spare especially when the action gets more intense which would be the main cause of forgetting to produce. Obviously the same argument would be applicable to Protosses as well; chronoboosting your warp gates is rather silly if you're already macroing *so well* that you don't have any extra money to make more units (so why rush to open up the warp gate again?). At least with Terran, those with imperfect macro can queue units ahead of time and don't need to worry about "catching up" and using chrono boosts on warpgates instead of other structures.
The only Terran known to queued up production was Goody AFAIK, it's not that hard to have continious production even with low APM. When the terran has 1k+minerals it's more because of the lack of production facilities, and it's better to add multiple rax when you are at 1k minerais than queuing units.
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On December 03 2013 15:55 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 15:52 BaneRiders wrote:I watched a bit of Sjow's stream yesterday, quite entertaining! He was in platinum, advanced to diamond as I watched. Did he make it to masters before the end of the day? Yes, on NA.
Cool! 
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On December 03 2013 16:21 BaneRiders wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 15:55 ZAiNs wrote:On December 03 2013 15:52 BaneRiders wrote:I watched a bit of Sjow's stream yesterday, quite entertaining! He was in platinum, advanced to diamond as I watched. Did he make it to masters before the end of the day? Yes, on NA. Cool!
Last time I watched, he was already rank 1 master, not sure whether he managed to get into gm yet.
edit: nope, still top master: http://www.sc2ranks.com/character/us/5208635/PatchToss/hots/1v1
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On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level).
Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran?
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That anybody can justify in their minds the belief that Warpgates are more user friendly than Barracks blows my mind.
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On December 03 2013 17:52 Lachrymose wrote:
That anybody can justify in their minds the belief that Warpgates are more user friendly than Barracks blows my mind.
well for one, there is a little icon to show your warp gate can warp in units :p
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On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level). Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran?
I just find toss incredibly hard to get used to in general if you care at all about trying to play optimally, meaning having all spell casters on a different hotkey and, at least, 2 nexi on their own hotkey. Part of trying to play correctly is never having your supply "cap" be too much higher than what your supply is. When you combine high supply units like colossi, immortals and void rays with having to factor in chrono boost, it really takes a while before you get a feel for when you should make pylons and how many.
In BW it was really easy and at a comfortable pace. It was a lot more intuitive. Toss was incredibly "easy" in BW. I could offrace with toss and fare even better than with T (my main). But, that didn't mean Toss was stronger... just easier. In SC 2, with terran, being able to drop supply is somewhat like a get out of jail card. If you get supply blocked with toss, it's rarely ever not a big deal.
Terran macro in BW, where obviously it was harder, wasn't that hard to begin with. A big part of that is, say in t vs z, where it was the hardest, you mainly made the same units. Just marines and medics. It's very easy to get the timing down for when you need to start up your next cycle when you're not making many different types of units. Very easy. Toss, in SC 2, sucks if you don't have a little bit of everything. It's nearly impossible to have something go off in your head that let's you know when it's time to try to make more units or to have an idea of what cooldowns are done with (and the thing that lets you know on your screen is too concealed for me to notice).
And, ofc, the biggest thing is... with terran you don't have to leave your screen to have perfect macro. With toss, you always have to take your eyes off the battle or make some units here, switch screen, make some units here, etc. If you think macro'ing with terran is hard, toss is impossible. And some of these reasons are way terran players always have a higher spending quotient.
Also, when going from playing toss to terran in sc 2, it feels like you never have minerals. It really feels like the game is being played on the slowest speed. It's really unbearable, at least in the early game. With toss, your income is always booming and "constant;" There are no dips/breaks. You always have to be macro'ing well.
And, if you're trying to play optimally, you always have to keep tabs on your nexi chrono boost and then take into account forges, robos, etc and prioritize where the energy needs to go. Can you still chrono nexi? Toss macro in SC 2 is harder than terran or toss in BW, imo. And micro is more important than it was with Terran in BW: due to how reliant toss is on synergies, you can have a million different types of units yet still feel like all of your eggs are in one basket because you can't afford to lose any type of unit... and everything is a spell caster...
Anyways, I simply find toss way harder than terran was. Stim + attack move? Spreading marines? That stuff really wasn't hard in BW... I think people would benefit from splitting their units up more BW like, because that stuff just isn't hard... and the margin for error is so much higher. But I digress.
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If Terran was as easy as you make it out to be, you wouldn't see all the high leagues dominated by protoss and zerg, and only the very best Korean terrans with their mechanical brilliance able to compete with Terran in Sc2 at the top level.
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On December 03 2013 18:49 AxionSteel wrote:
If Terran was as easy as you make it out to be, you wouldn't see all the high leagues dominated by protoss and zerg, and only the very best Korean terrans with their mechanical brilliance able to compete with Terran in Sc2 at the top level.
I think that's mainly due to how few places most players can attack at once. If takes a certain level of protoss to be able to defend, say, 3 attacks/fonts at once. If more terrans could simply do this, life would be much harder. I feel like that's by far the biggest difference maker between terrans.
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I think it's because terran is fricking hard to play, personally.
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On December 03 2013 18:43 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level). Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran? I just find toss incredibly hard to get used to in general if you care at all about trying to play optimally, meaning having all spell casters on a different hotkey and, at least, 2 nexi on their own hotkey. Part of trying to play correctly is never having your supply "cap" be too much higher than what your supply is. When you combine high supply units like colossi, immortals and void rays with having to factor in chrono boost, it really takes a while before you get a feel for when you should make pylons and how many. [...]
Not doubting what you are saying, warp gate might be a really powerful mechanic but it also makes macroing harder due to having no queue and the need to watch where you warp in. But why would you have two separate hotkeys for nexi?
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Tbh so far he's struggling way more than pro player should with another race...
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On December 03 2013 19:03 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 18:43 playa wrote:On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level). Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran? I just find toss incredibly hard to get used to in general if you care at all about trying to play optimally, meaning having all spell casters on a different hotkey and, at least, 2 nexi on their own hotkey. Part of trying to play correctly is never having your supply "cap" be too much higher than what your supply is. When you combine high supply units like colossi, immortals and void rays with having to factor in chrono boost, it really takes a while before you get a feel for when you should make pylons and how many. [...] Not doubting what you are saying, warp gate might be a really powerful mechanic but it also makes macroing harder due to having no queue and the need to watch where you warp in. But why would you have two separate hotkeys for nexi?
Because, if you have any plans of trying to play optimally, you have to constantly keep tabs on your energy (cycling between hotkeys) so you can use chrono boost asap (when energy allows). And if you don't understand how much energy you have at the time, you can't understand what makes sense to chrono or not.
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Hmmm, top 50 GM seems a good test, could well depend on how he adapts to the PvP mirror match up, lots of Protoss in that high masters/GM MMR bracket and from what I have seen of that match up in pro tournies it seems a bit of a head fucker. Good luck to him anyway.
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Playa says what makes it hard for him, from what i think and from what i saw his statement is pretty unique. SC2 toss is different and because of that he can't nail it, hence it's harder than anything BW.
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On December 03 2013 19:18 DinoToss wrote:
Playa says what makes it hard for him, from what i think and from what i saw his statement is pretty unique. SC2 toss is different and because of that he can't nail it, hence it's harder than anything BW.
No one is able to utilize chrono energy, for example, as efficiently as possible. I still have a good enough grasp of toss macro to be GM. But, if you're actually trying to play "properly," then the learning curve is much steeper for Toss. Most people, though, in SC 2 just try to take the "easy way," even if it's blatantly noobish. If Sjow wants to try to macro "correctly," imo, then his apm probably needs to go up.
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On December 03 2013 18:43 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level). Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran? I just find toss incredibly hard to get used to in general if you care at all about trying to play optimally, meaning having all spell casters on a different hotkey and, at least, 2 nexi on their own hotkey. Part of trying to play correctly is never having your supply "cap" be too much higher than what your supply is. When you combine high supply units like colossi, immortals and void rays with having to factor in chrono boost, it really takes a while before you get a feel for when you should make pylons and how many. In BW it was really easy and at a comfortable pace. It was a lot more intuitive. Toss was incredibly "easy" in BW. I could offrace with toss and fare even better than with T (my main). But, that didn't mean Toss was stronger... just easier. In SC 2, with terran, being able to drop supply is somewhat like a get out of jail card. If you get supply blocked with toss, it's rarely ever not a big deal. Terran macro in BW, where obviously it was harder, wasn't that hard to begin with. A big part of that is, say in t vs z, where it was the hardest, you mainly made the same units. Just marines and medics. It's very easy to get the timing down for when you need to start up your next cycle when you're not making many different types of units. Very easy. Toss, in SC 2, sucks if you don't have a little bit of everything. It's nearly impossible to have something go off in your head that let's you know when it's time to try to make more units or to have an idea of what cooldowns are done with (and the thing that lets you know on your screen is too concealed for me to notice). And, ofc, the biggest thing is... with terran you don't have to leave your screen to have perfect macro. With toss, you always have to take your eyes off the battle or make some units here, switch screen, make some units here, etc. If you think macro'ing with terran is hard, toss is impossible. And some of these reasons are way terran players always have a higher spending quotient. Also, when going from playing toss to terran in sc 2, it feels like you never have minerals. It really feels like the game is being played on the slowest speed. It's really unbearable, at least in the early game. With toss, your income is always booming and "constant;" There are no dips/breaks. You always have to be macro'ing well. And, if you're trying to play optimally, you always have to keep tabs on your nexi chrono boost and then take into account forges, robos, etc and prioritize where the energy needs to go. Can you still chrono nexi? Toss macro in SC 2 is harder than terran or toss in BW, imo. And micro is more important than it was with Terran in BW: due to how reliant toss is on synergies, you can have a million different types of units yet still feel like all of your eggs are in one basket because you can't afford to lose any type of unit... and everything is a spell caster... Anyways, I simply find toss way harder than terran was. Stim + attack move? Spreading marines? That stuff really wasn't hard in BW... I think people would benefit from splitting their units up more BW like, because that stuff just isn't hard... and the margin for error is so much higher. But I digress.
When I offraced Terran, I found it was kind of weird/hard to hotkey my units, cause suddenly I needed a squad to drop, and then another squad to drop another place, and preferably poke the front, so I had to rehotkey everything. I guess I should have given it more practise.
It just seemed so annoyingly difficult too make hitsquad groups all the time (remake your group 1, make group 2 for hitsquad etc), and having some control of your medivac not amoving above your enemy, making them heal and not move etc. I really had a problem with the Terran army control in general, found it very annoying. Maybe there is a terran army control guide somewhere that I didn't bother looking up.
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On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level). Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran?
Terran probably has the easiest macro in the sense that you never have to go back to your base. You can instead focus on your army all the time.
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On December 03 2013 20:11 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 17:50 crappen wrote:On December 03 2013 14:56 playa wrote:
As someone that macro'd "well" with terran and toss in BW, I found macro'ing (trying to be optimal) with toss, in SC 2, too be much harder than anything in BW. Terran macro in SC 2... seems to be way easier than anything I've seen before... With Sjow's apm and the macro he is used to, I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the worst macro toss of all time (at least at a pro level). Can you explain why this is so? Why you experienced that macroing with toss is much harder then say terran? Terran probably has the easiest macro in the sense that you never have to go back to your base. You can instead focus on your army all the time.
Strictly speaking they have to drop MULEs too.
But then again Terran has a huge advantage with that macro gimmick compared to Zerg and Protoss macro gimmicks. You can stack up energy for MULEs and if you miss some you can just drop a bunch at once, your gain will be delayed, but it will be as high as if you hit it on time; so overall your gain is just the same because the Terran gimmick is an income boost. But since both Protoss and Zerg gimmicks are both about increasing production rate you always lose out if you miss it, because its all about saving time rather than boosting income; miss a chrono on something then its always wasted time and if you miss an inject again its always wasted time.
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Out of interest, would someone mind telling me what SjoW's average APM is? A rough figure of course :3 Thanks! Good luck with him anyway, no matter what, if it keeps him passionate about the game it's worth it.
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On December 03 2013 20:26 Merilwen wrote:
Out of interest, would someone mind telling me what SjoW's average APM is? A rough figure of course :3 Thanks! Good luck with him anyway, no matter what, if it keeps him passionate about the game it's worth it.
He had 60 avg. apm in his first 7 matches. After that I stopped watching.
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PvT is hilariously protoss favoured at the lower level, its funny that anyone would deny that.
Overall though I don't have a problem with it as a race, I enjoy watching cheesy bullshit every now and then. Good luck to Sjow, I think he will be a better player as protoss.
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On December 03 2013 20:11 Hider wrote:
Terran probably has the easiest macro in the sense that you never have to go back to your base. You can instead focus on your army all the time.
This isn't strictly true for all people. Friends of mine who tried Terran off-race failed very badly, since Terran has to build buildings and depots (any many of them) all of the time and you need one worker for each. Zerg has by far the easiest macro seen this way. Many Terran off-racing as Zerg report very fast success (success stories "I was stuck in diamond and after switching to Zerg I'm easily Master"), but it doesn't work the other way round. Of course, Protoss has only a little bit less infrastructure hassle.
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On December 03 2013 20:39 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 20:26 Merilwen wrote:
Out of interest, would someone mind telling me what SjoW's average APM is? A rough figure of course :3 Thanks! Good luck with him anyway, no matter what, if it keeps him passionate about the game it's worth it. He had 60 avg. apm in his first 7 matches. After that I stopped watching.
I think it was Nony who said a couple of years ago that SjoW needed to work on playing faster and that was the biggest thing holding him back.
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On December 03 2013 21:01 Green_25 wrote:
PvT is hilariously protoss favoured at the lower level, its funny that anyone would deny that.
Overall though I don't have a problem with it as a race, I enjoy watching cheesy bullshit every now and then. Good luck to Sjow, I think he will be a better player as protoss.
Still winrates are even.
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He's already at a top masters level on NA after 1 day of practice. A month is too much time for him, I bet he can manage to get top 50 GM in less than 2 weeks.
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protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On December 03 2013 21:12 ( bush wrote:
He's already at a top masters level on NA after 1 day of practice. A month is too much time for him, I bet he can manage to get top 50 GM in less than 2 weeks.
Uhem, what about top 50 GM on EU :3?
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On December 03 2013 21:11 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:01 Green_25 wrote:
PvT is hilariously protoss favoured at the lower level, its funny that anyone would deny that.
Overall though I don't have a problem with it as a race, I enjoy watching cheesy bullshit every now and then. Good luck to Sjow, I think he will be a better player as protoss. Still winrates are even.
winrates indicate that matchmaking is good not that one race harder than another race, i think.
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On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals.
The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that.
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On December 03 2013 21:18 75 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:11 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On December 03 2013 21:01 Green_25 wrote:
PvT is hilariously protoss favoured at the lower level, its funny that anyone would deny that.
Overall though I don't have a problem with it as a race, I enjoy watching cheesy bullshit every now and then. Good luck to Sjow, I think he will be a better player as protoss. Still winrates are even. winrates indicate that matchmaking is good not that one race harder than another race, i think.
not necessarily, protoss players could technically have a 0% win rate vs zerg and 100% vs terran. and this would indicate that one of those match up isn't balanced.
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On December 03 2013 21:12 ( bush wrote:
He's already at a top masters level on NA after 1 day of practice. A month is too much time for him, I bet he can manage to get top 50 GM in less than 2 weeks.
Highly doubt it.
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Getting to top masters offracing is really easy for any pro, going from that to top 50 gm is a massive jump, personally feel he will struggle to get there, since every gm he faces will know who he is and just auto prepare for cheese. Getting GM itself will be quite easy.
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On December 03 2013 21:12 ( bush wrote:
He's already at a top masters level on NA after 1 day of practice. A month is too much time for him, I bet he can manage to get top 50 GM in less than 2 weeks.
He's not at top master level. He was around mid-master (the position in the division is meaningless, you should consider his points).
And from there to top 50 gm the journey is VERY long, expecially considering he have no clue about builds in PvP/PvZ and his mechanics can't carry him (since they are quite bad). He's a very smart guy and that helps a bit, but still it will be very hard to get top50.
My prediction is : he will achieve GM in a month but not top50. It seems resonable..
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Can't SjoW technically only achieve GM if there's an opening (i.e., current GM players are idle for so long that they lose their spot in the GM league, allowing someone to take it)? Or are we just referring to SjoW's MMR, where he's consistently playing mid-GM players?
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
Funniest thing about this all: this got him some tasty stream viewers.
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On December 03 2013 23:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Can't SjoW technically only achieve GM if there's an opening (i.e., current GM players are idle for so long that they lose their spot in the GM league, allowing someone to take it)? Or are we just referring to SjoW's MMR, where he's consistently playing mid-GM players?
GM is rarely 200/200
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Funniest thing about this all: this got him some tasty stream viewers.
Yea, the Terran players want him to succeed in doing this and the protoss players want him to fall flat on his face LOLOL so everyone has their reasons to watch
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Awesome to see him play yesterday. Blink-boss-SjoW ;-D
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Not having that income boost as early as possible DOES delay production for terran. You can't build your extra production facilities earlier and you can't produce units until you have that income boost. Terran players factor that income boost into determining how many production facilities they can support.
Unless you are planning to chronoboost an upgrade 100% of the time, it's not going to matter exactly when you chronoboost it. It's 7 am, I just woke up so I'll just make up some numbers instead of looking up exact times.
For example let's say you plan to chronoboost weapons upgrade twice. You can either chronoboost it twice back-to-back right off the start and then wait 20 seconds at the end. So 15 second (for 1 chronoboost) + 15 + 20 = 50 seconds to complete the upgrade. Or you can chronoboost once at the start and once at the end, 15 + 20 + 15 = 50 seconds. Or you can chronoboost twice at the end, 20 + 15 + 15 = 50 seconds.
So again, unless you are planning to chronoboost 100% of the time, you don't lose anything by chronoboosting late.
Protoss players build more gateways then they need or can support because they can afford to do that. They don't actually want to be building gateway units that early. They can afford to skip production cycles because they can instantly have a particular unit when they want it. How many times have you seen protoss players build gateways but instead of warping in units, they warp in a nexus? Terran players and even zerg players are forced to build and spend income 30+ seconds before they actually want that unit and before their spent income actually has an affect.
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On December 03 2013 23:37 KingofGods wrote:
Unless you are planning to chronoboost an upgrade 100% of the time, it's not going to matter exactly when you chronoboost it. It's 7 am, I just woke up so I'll just make up some numbers instead of looking up exact times.
...
So again, unless you are planning to chronoboost 100% of the time, you don't lose anything by chronoboosting late.
Which you SHOULD be doing. You SHOULD be chronoboosting key upgrades 100% of the time to get it out as fast as possible optimally. And if you miss that you'll wreck a timing or possibly flat out lose the game if you're missing something crucial at a key moment (storm, say...or thermal lance).
So...your point?
And lets not get into the whole "front loaded production vs back loaded production" again. There's like a million threads about it already.
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I'm actually still surprised that Sjow is still playing . I'm guessing he's a part-time pro and has a real job doing something else, I would be surprised if he could get by for two years already with very little coverage or accomplishment ,with his team still paying him a normal salary. At this point I'm surprised any foreigner except those at the very top are still playing.
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On December 03 2013 23:18 Pirfiktshon wrote:Yea, the Terran players want him to succeed in doing this and the protoss players want him to fall flat on his face LOLOL so everyone has their reasons to watch
Pretty much this
I bet if I drank the twitch chat for the session yesterday would have been highly entertaining.
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On December 03 2013 22:40 Lochland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:12 ( bush wrote:
He's already at a top masters level on NA after 1 day of practice. A month is too much time for him, I bet he can manage to get top 50 GM in less than 2 weeks. He's not at top master level. He was around mid-master (the position in the division is meaningless, you should consider his points). And from there to top 50 gm the journey is VERY long, expecially considering he have no clue about builds in PvP/PvZ and his mechanics can't carry him (since they are quite bad). He's a very smart guy and that helps a bit, but still it will be very hard to get top50. My prediction is : he will achieve GM in a month but not top50. It seems resonable..
Yeh I agree with that prediction. Low-mid GM is most realistic.
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he has gm toss coach that tells him what builds to use and Sjow is smart. im sure he will be Gm in few days. and 50 in 1 week.
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SjoW after 5 hours at top of master league in NA ^^
good job, and beat Thorzain twice, but lost in the end 3-2 ... but i don't know what i should think about this, a pro switch race and barely can beat a long time pro with Terran (Thorzain)??
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This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol
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On December 04 2013 00:54 VeTerrAn1 wrote:
SjoW after 5 hours at top of master league in NA ^^
good job, and beat Thorzain twice, but lost in the end 3-2 ... but i don't know what i should think about this, a pro switch race and barely can beat a long time pro with Terran (Thorzain)??
Not being funny but I'm pretty sure someone in Bronze league could have beaten Thorzain in that game 3 given how it went...
Game 2 was slightly different, but Thorzain was still pretty greedy with the third CC. Bit of a weird game though, you get them sometimes.
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On December 04 2013 01:09 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:54 VeTerrAn1 wrote:
SjoW after 5 hours at top of master league in NA ^^
good job, and beat Thorzain twice, but lost in the end 3-2 ... but i don't know what i should think about this, a pro switch race and barely can beat a long time pro with Terran (Thorzain)?? Not being funny but I'm pretty sure someone in Bronze league could have beaten Thorzain in that game 3 given how it went... Game 2 was slightly different, but Thorzain was still pretty greedy with the third CC. Bit of a weird game though, you get them sometimes.
He had 4 cc right?
2 at the natural and 2 at the mainbase.
+ he did double upgrates
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On December 04 2013 00:58 ffadicted wrote:
This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol
And then Terran got nerfs and Byun hasn't been seen in a scene much. At least not in WCS.
But hey, let's keep implying Terran is OP.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On December 04 2013 01:30 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:58 ffadicted wrote:
This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol And then Terran got nerfs and Byun hasn't been seen in a scene much. At least not in WCS. But hey, let's keep implying Terran is OP.
Nobody denies that at time when ByuN switched Terran could be considered *kinda* OP. Not now though. Or ever in 2012.
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On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that.
PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period.
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On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period.
Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT...
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Is anyone aware of how PvZ is faring for the moment? I don't really care about these numbers since I am a lowly silver trudger (potential racial imbalances doesn't affect me yadi-yadi-ya) and as always it seems kind of balanced at the top level. I'm just curious, since there's a lot of heat emanating from the PvT-side of things, but I haven't really experienced that when it comes to PvZ.
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On December 04 2013 01:24 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:09 -Celestial- wrote:On December 04 2013 00:54 VeTerrAn1 wrote:
SjoW after 5 hours at top of master league in NA ^^
good job, and beat Thorzain twice, but lost in the end 3-2 ... but i don't know what i should think about this, a pro switch race and barely can beat a long time pro with Terran (Thorzain)?? Not being funny but I'm pretty sure someone in Bronze league could have beaten Thorzain in that game 3 given how it went... Game 2 was slightly different, but Thorzain was still pretty greedy with the third CC. Bit of a weird game though, you get them sometimes. He had 4 cc right? 2 at the natural and 2 at the mainbase. + he did double upgrates
I was only half watching so I might have missed the fourth, I distinctly remember the third and thinking he was being pretty brave with trying that against a likely all-inning Protoss. Ye gods, and people are taking that seriously? X-D
On December 04 2013 01:32 lolfail9001 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:30 plogamer wrote:On December 04 2013 00:58 ffadicted wrote:
This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol And then Terran got nerfs and Byun hasn't been seen in a scene much. At least not in WCS. But hey, let's keep implying Terran is OP. Nobody denies that at time when ByuN switched Terran could be considered *kinda* OP. Not now though. Or ever in 2012.
Plenty of people did and still do. I believe the argument was "they're just better!" which is a wonderful hand wave that's been used for years by a number of Terrans. Most recently at the start of Heart of the Swarm before things started getting nerfed.
And I shudder to think of what you think truly imbalanced is if 62.5% of GSL Code S being Teran is only "kinda OP". ;P
On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period.
Actually I'm pretty sure the 1/1/1 era had WAY higher Terran winrates than a mere 55%. Especially considering 55% is only borderline for there being a balance issue (i.e. has to be higher than that for it to even be considered as a potential problem).
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On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT...
It's worse in terms of winrates. Your opinion does not change that.
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On December 04 2013 01:30 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 00:58 ffadicted wrote:
This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol And then Terran got nerfs and Byun hasn't been seen in a scene much. At least not in WCS. But hey, let's keep implying Terran is OP.
It's all about timelines and I don't think he was implying Terran is OP atm. He's talking about one moment in time.
On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT...
It wasn't pretty to watch, that's for sure.
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On December 04 2013 02:07 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:24 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:On December 04 2013 01:09 -Celestial- wrote:On December 04 2013 00:54 VeTerrAn1 wrote:
SjoW after 5 hours at top of master league in NA ^^
good job, and beat Thorzain twice, but lost in the end 3-2 ... but i don't know what i should think about this, a pro switch race and barely can beat a long time pro with Terran (Thorzain)?? Not being funny but I'm pretty sure someone in Bronze league could have beaten Thorzain in that game 3 given how it went... Game 2 was slightly different, but Thorzain was still pretty greedy with the third CC. Bit of a weird game though, you get them sometimes. He had 4 cc right? 2 at the natural and 2 at the mainbase. + he did double upgrates I was only half watching so I might have missed the fourth, I distinctly remember the third and thinking he was being pretty brave with trying that against a likely all-inning Protoss. Ye gods, and people are taking that seriously? X-D Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:32 lolfail9001 wrote:On December 04 2013 01:30 plogamer wrote:On December 04 2013 00:58 ffadicted wrote:
This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol And then Terran got nerfs and Byun hasn't been seen in a scene much. At least not in WCS. But hey, let's keep implying Terran is OP. Nobody denies that at time when ByuN switched Terran could be considered *kinda* OP. Not now though. Or ever in 2012. Plenty of people did and still do. I believe the argument was "they're just better!" which is a wonderful hand wave that's been used for years by a number of Terrans. Most recently at the start of Heart of the Swarm before things started getting nerfed. And I shudder to think of what you think truly imbalanced is if 62.5% of GSL Code S being Teran is only "kinda OP". ;P Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Actually I'm pretty sure the 1/1/1 era had WAY higher Terran winrates than a mere 55%. Especially considering 55% is only borderline for there being a balance issue (i.e. has to be higher than that for it to even be considered as a potential problem).
http://aligulac.com/reports/
Outside of march 2013 last time TvP was below 45% - November 2010. Im pretty sure 1/1/1 was later.
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Stream is up... here we go again.
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On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT...
During that time, everything just went poorly for Protoss. The top Protoss MC was slumping and had fallen to Code B, you had all these vP monsters running around, Bomber, Polt, MKP, and Coca (100% winrate vs. Protoss in 2011 GSL matches).
Zergs had a tough time too, as you had these vZ monsters in Mvp, MMA and Nestea (cannibalizing the swarm).
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On December 04 2013 00:36 Marke wrote:
he has gm toss coach that tells him what builds to use and Sjow is smart. im sure he will be Gm in few days. and 50 in 1 week.
Then he's not listening his coach (Runa?) since 90% of the build he's doing doesen't make that much sense...
And top50 in a week ? Lol :D
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"how do you beat storms?"asks Sjow's zergy opponent.
"emp" - says Sjow.
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On December 04 2013 00:58 ffadicted wrote:
This reminds me of when Byun switched from Toss to Terran cuz he thought Terran was super OP.
I remember him saying "I would be Code S already if I was terran", then he switched to terran and made code S lol
Well he qualified for best GSL league first two seasons (as protoss). Then 3rd season after he had transioned he didn't qualify at all to GSL and then 4th season he got 4th in Code a.
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2.
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On December 04 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT... It's worse in terms of winrates. Your opinion does not change that.
While I was indeed just stating my opinion, you haven't even verified that your truth value statement is correct. Is the current statistic of PvT at 55% win rate for Protoss actually a less even statistic than the GomTvT era? You made that claim, so please back it up with those old statistics to compare. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm asking you to provide evidence to validate your assertion.)
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On December 04 2013 12:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT... It's worse in terms of winrates. Your opinion does not change that. While I was indeed just stating my opinion, you haven't even verified that your truth value statement is correct. Is the current statistic of PvT at 55% win rate for Protoss actually a less even statistic than the GomTvT era? You made that claim, so please back it up with those old statistics to compare. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm asking you to provide evidence to validate your assertion.)
http://aligulac.com/reports/
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On December 04 2013 15:31 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 12:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT... It's worse in terms of winrates. Your opinion does not change that. While I was indeed just stating my opinion, you haven't even verified that your truth value statement is correct. Is the current statistic of PvT at 55% win rate for Protoss actually a less even statistic than the GomTvT era? You made that claim, so please back it up with those old statistics to compare. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm asking you to provide evidence to validate your assertion.) http://aligulac.com/reports/
That shows records of Terran with nearly 60% win rate against both Protoss and Zerg back in the day. I don't think 55% PvT all of a sudden is that big a deal lol.
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meh, im more concerned with the second graph, showing a decline in T performance since the release of hots, with no sign of slowing down. in fact you can see the performance of T now is the same as in the patch zerg era...
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On December 04 2013 15:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:31 keglu wrote:On December 04 2013 12:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT... It's worse in terms of winrates. Your opinion does not change that. While I was indeed just stating my opinion, you haven't even verified that your truth value statement is correct. Is the current statistic of PvT at 55% win rate for Protoss actually a less even statistic than the GomTvT era? You made that claim, so please back it up with those old statistics to compare. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm asking you to provide evidence to validate your assertion.) http://aligulac.com/reports/ That shows records of Terran with nearly 60% win rate against both Protoss and Zerg back in the day. I don't think 55% PvT all of a sudden is that big a deal lol.
If we wanna go back to balance from end of 2010 indeed we should not worry about current trend and situation.
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On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2.
Reapers.
Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran.
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On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran.
Haha.
Also, (probably) not technically true. If you take, say, BabyKnight and Happy, put them on a current map, and give them the patch before amulet was removed, i would bet good money on babyk winning. A lot of early victories from terran came from the fact that maps naturally compressed games into timeframes where terran had the advantage, and other races didn't get to exercise their strengths as much.
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Foreigners cannot win with Terran, its just too hard. But switching to the by far easiest race is not a option...
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On December 05 2013 03:47 CrankOut wrote:
Foreigners cannot win with Terran, its just too hard. But switching to the by far easiest race is not a option...
He switched to Protoss, not Zerg...
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On December 05 2013 03:50 blinken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:47 CrankOut wrote:
Foreigners cannot win with Terran, its just too hard. But switching to the by far easiest race is not a option... He switched to Protoss, not Zerg...
Come on, he didn't want to sink THAT low... besides, the gamertag PatchZerg would not have even been creative, whereas PatchToss is just awesome :D
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On December 05 2013 03:42 GTPGlitch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. Haha. Also, (probably) not technically true. If you take, say, BabyKnight and Happy, put them on a current map, and give them the patch before amulet was removed, i would bet good money on babyk winning. A lot of early victories from terran came from the fact that maps naturally compressed games into timeframes where terran had the advantage, and other races didn't get to exercise their strengths as much.
Yes, let's create a completely irrelevant scenario featuring a new map, arbitrary balance buffs, a different metagame, and two mid-tier pro-gamers to defend an assertion about the way the game used to be balanced, instead of looking at actual statistics and data.
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United States23455 Posts
Guys this is the thread you're looking for I think.
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He needs some coaching for Protoss, his micro is "okay" but his timings are very late on his attacks. He needs to practice builds and have a Pro-Protoss give him tips. I think his PvT is his best matchup because he understands how it works so well. I think his PvZ is abysmal and as a diamond Protoss I find his play sloppy and late, his attacks are too late, his builds orders are unsafe and not very efficient. He needs a lot of work or he will never make GM ^^ Good luck.
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On December 04 2013 15:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 15:31 keglu wrote:On December 04 2013 12:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 02:18 keglu wrote:On December 04 2013 01:55 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. Nothing is worse than the 1/1/1 domination period, or GomTvTvTvTvT... It's worse in terms of winrates. Your opinion does not change that. While I was indeed just stating my opinion, you haven't even verified that your truth value statement is correct. Is the current statistic of PvT at 55% win rate for Protoss actually a less even statistic than the GomTvT era? You made that claim, so please back it up with those old statistics to compare. (I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm asking you to provide evidence to validate your assertion.) http://aligulac.com/reports/ That shows records of Terran with nearly 60% win rate against both Protoss and Zerg back in the day. I don't think 55% PvT all of a sudden is that big a deal lol.
I think that u should consider that the patch was at mid November and from October to November it was 3% increase for Protoss in the matchup so it can be easyly 58-60% now we have to w8 on the next month.
But U also can no denie that on EU and NA nearly 50% of the GM league are Protoss^^.
And last ZvT was in 2010 also about 60% and Fruitdealer won GSL. So I think all this ah Taeja wins Tournaments so the game is balanced is off the table now.
thanks for reading.^^
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On December 05 2013 04:11 Darkhoarse wrote:Guys this is the thread you're looking for I think.
No, it´s not, because nobody reads that.
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On December 05 2013 04:07 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:42 GTPGlitch wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. Haha. Also, (probably) not technically true. If you take, say, BabyKnight and Happy, put them on a current map, and give them the patch before amulet was removed, i would bet good money on babyk winning. A lot of early victories from terran came from the fact that maps naturally compressed games into timeframes where terran had the advantage, and other races didn't get to exercise their strengths as much. Yes, let's create a completely irrelevant scenario featuring a new map, arbitrary balance buffs, a different metagame, and two mid-tier pro-gamers to defend an assertion about the way the game used to be balanced, instead of looking at actual statistics and data.
Oh you, you and your reason <3
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I will be interested to see how this pans out for him... But I don't expect it will really last.
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On December 05 2013 03:50 blinken wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:47 CrankOut wrote:
Foreigners cannot win with Terran, its just too hard. But switching to the by far easiest race is not a option... He switched to Protoss, not Zerg...
Having played all three races to low-mid masters (before ladder changes) protoss is by far the easiest race to play
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Think PvP will be his downfall. Compared to TvT it feels maybe not coinflippy, but on a razor's edge. Sjow has always struck me as a good strategic player but PvP seems to be more about trickery and mind games.
Edit: I also find it a bit funny that people don't agree with KA being the most OP thing that got removed. The maps were so insanely small that it didn't effect the game as much as it'd do now, but that doesn't really change how strong it was. If you got to hts + storm + KA they were a nightmare to deal with.
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On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran.
What was the PvZ winrate the last month that Void Ray speed was in the game? Both upgrades would have eventually led to some pretty disgusting Protoss dominance if they weren't taken out of the game before they became a problem. Stargate openings didn't even become popular until AFTER the speed upgrade was taken out.
EDIT: I guess it's only speculation that Protoss would dominate. Regardless, those were 2 super strong upgrades.
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On December 05 2013 17:59 Zarahtra wrote:
Think PvP will be his downfall. Compared to TvT it feels maybe not coinflippy, but on a razor's edge. Sjow has always struck me as a good strategic player but PvP seems to be more about trickery and mind games.
Edit: I also find it a bit funny that people don't agree with KA being the most OP thing that got removed. The maps were so insanely small that it didn't effect the game as much as it'd do now, but that doesn't really change how strong it was. If you got to hts + storm + KA they were a nightmare to deal with.
As far as his winrates go though, PvZ is his worst at the moment, right? How good (and quick) are his forcefields?
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![[image loading]](http://imgim.com/4919incif6292052.png)
User was warned for this post
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On December 05 2013 18:38 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 17:59 Zarahtra wrote:
Think PvP will be his downfall. Compared to TvT it feels maybe not coinflippy, but on a razor's edge. Sjow has always struck me as a good strategic player but PvP seems to be more about trickery and mind games.
Edit: I also find it a bit funny that people don't agree with KA being the most OP thing that got removed. The maps were so insanely small that it didn't effect the game as much as it'd do now, but that doesn't really change how strong it was. If you got to hts + storm + KA they were a nightmare to deal with. As far as his winrates go though, PvZ is his worst at the moment, right? How good (and quick) are his forcefields?
Well, I only watched for 3 minutes when he was in playing a zerg and lets just say I saw a lot of stalkers, but hardly any sentries. He didn't look good at all, heh. The other guy didn't look very good either meh.
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On December 05 2013 18:01 Arolis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. What was the PvZ winrate the last month that Void Ray speed was in the game? Both upgrades would have eventually led to some pretty disgusting Protoss dominance if they weren't taken out of the game before they became a problem. Stargate openings didn't even become popular until AFTER the speed upgrade was taken out. EDIT: I guess it's only speculation that Protoss would dominate. Regardless, those were 2 super strong upgrades.
Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate.
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He is still master? What is his rank now?
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Around 700-750 pts i think
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On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran.
TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time).
It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon.
With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba.
Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate
Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts;
1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game.
2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this).
3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong.
Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game.
Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated.
Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame.
But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose.
However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then.
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kinda funny watching Sjow struggle a bit after his cocky comments like "P imba" etc... :p
PvZ and PvP seem quite hard to master for him, which is no surprise really since he actually is learning those matchups for the very first time. With PvT he has quite some fun ^_^, at least for now bashing mostly random master players.
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On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period.
In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination.
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On December 06 2013 12:29 bearhug wrote:Toss so easy to play.
If you actually tuned into his stream.. I've seen very little of him play but for what I did see of his PvZ. He has a very loooooong way to go.
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On December 06 2013 12:32 StarStruck wrote:If you actually tuned into his stream.. I've seen very little of him play but for what I did see of his PvZ. He has a very loooooong way to go.
True true. Wonder if any pros will change to T because it's apparently easy ;P
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Yes so far I've watched him only once and that was 4-5 games max but it seems that he isn't really trying to learn. His wall-offs against zerg are terrible and he has only gateway units 15 minute into the game against terran. (to name 2 obvious mistakes but there are many more) And he does it over and over again.
He could be top 50 GM no problem if he actually learned protoss but he is playing on auto-pilot right now.
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As insulting as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying the sh*t out of this stream. Sjow is very slow for a pro, it's great learning from his play and what he is able to do with low APM, way easier to replicate then someone like TL.HerO, prob the worst player ever to learn from haha
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I switched to protoss, but after about 2 months I went back to Terran. I just found Protoss really not exciting, Warp gates are insanely strong, its amazing how at Diamond level people don't scout the map for pylons with a single marine. I would just warp in like 8 zealots and just decimate workers anytime I saw the chance.
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On December 09 2013 01:17 ffadicted wrote:
As insulting as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying the sh*t out of this stream. Sjow is very slow for a pro, it's great learning from his play and what he is able to do with low APM, way easier to replicate then someone like TL.HerO, prob the worst player ever to learn from haha
You should get elfi, he is top5 gm and slow :D
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On December 09 2013 01:29 TheBloodyDwarf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:17 ffadicted wrote:
As insulting as this may sound, I'm actually enjoying the sh*t out of this stream. Sjow is very slow for a pro, it's great learning from his play and what he is able to do with low APM, way easier to replicate then someone like TL.HerO, prob the worst player ever to learn from haha You should get elfi, he is top5 gm and slow :D
elfi actually got quite a bit faster, but ofc slow compared to some high apm players still
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On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea.
This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png)
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On December 06 2013 13:13 RedMorning wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 12:32 StarStruck wrote:On December 06 2013 12:29 bearhug wrote:Toss so easy to play. If you actually tuned into his stream.. I've seen very little of him play but for what I did see of his PvZ. He has a very loooooong way to go. True true. Wonder if any pros will change to T because it's apparently easy ;P
worth pointing out this is NA. Just by looking at ladder points, NA master league is much much less competitive than EU ladder. Sjow is already top 200 master in NA, however with the same amount of point in EU ladder, I don't think he would even be top 500.
Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea.
Your manipulating statistics with that quote as the 65% number suffers extremely much from variance. With that quote your implying the "true w/r" of the 1/1/1 era was 65%, when in reality the real number is much much less.
Instead, it is much better to take a broader view over multiple months where the average is much closer to 55%.
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I think the fun part about Sjows streams is that he doesnt seem have much of an understanding of protoss meta.
He just roughly copies common builds and then learns as he goes along.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Show nested quote +Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then.
Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units.
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On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments.
Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era?
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On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool.
Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates:
+ Show Spoiler +
There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November.
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On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November.
I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP
- GSL Code S - 0
- GSL Code A -0
- GSTL:1
- U&D :6
- code B :27
So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments. Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here.
To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example.
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On December 09 2013 05:58 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here. To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example. You hit the nail on the head. Only SangHo made it through, and he played only PvZ in RO16, losing to Coca. He beat Polt once in group stages, which were still considered Up and Down. The other 3 Protoss in October (totalling 4 in the RO32) all lost their matches. Hence no PvTs in Code S.
So yeah, the sample size for TvP was tiny, but that in itself is indicative of how bad Protoss was doing. Funny enough, there were quite a few Protoss in Code A, but they all had PvZs, including the infamous MC vs. Monster matchup where Monster literally just went mass infestor and killed MC with Infested Terrans in an all-in on Dual Sight. That knocked him out of the GSL.
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Is the goal top 50 on EU or NA? I seee he has been playing on NA even though he is living in EU (I think?). I hope he is using NA for some practice then using an account on EU, that would be a lot more impressive if he made it.
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On December 09 2013 08:13 rANDY wrote:
Is the goal top 50 on EU or NA? I seee he has been playing on NA even though he is living in EU (I think?). I hope he is using NA for some practice then using an account on EU, that would be a lot more impressive if he made it.
I think he's going for NA since it's the easiest. He's obviously got a personal agenda trying to prove something with this lol
Though I hope he's really thinking of switching, it's no shame to accept your style is better suited for different race without saying "SEE LUL DIS RACE SO VRY EZPZ"
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On December 09 2013 02:11 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then. Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units.
What are you talking about? Everyone 1gated expanded in WOL. That's some insane rewriting of history.
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On December 09 2013 08:35 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 02:11 T.O.P. wrote:On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Eh he propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into robo into adding 2 more gates . Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then. Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units. What are you talking about? Everyone 1gated expanded in WOL. That's some insane rewriting of history.
He propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into quick robo and then add 2 more gates.
Can propably call that somewhat 3 gate quick colo, since you'd assume everyone does 1 gate fe :o
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On December 09 2013 08:52 Quateras wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 08:35 Hider wrote:On December 09 2013 02:11 T.O.P. wrote:On December 06 2013 07:30 Hider wrote:On December 05 2013 03:09 BronzeKnee wrote:On December 04 2013 04:07 Hider wrote:
Looking back though - Protoss was much stronger than terran at that point in time due to Khadarian amulet. That's probably the most imbalanced thing ever to have been in Sc2. Reapers. Anyway, Protoss was strong, but Terran was clearly stronger back in the day. Results and statistics back that up. The last month KA was in the game, Protoss was winning less than 50% of games against Terran. TvP really rarely got to late game back then due to the strengt of terran all ins (yeh very different time). It took time for protoss to figure it out. However, if pro's played with same balance today, protoss would be unbeatable. Just think of lategame PvT today - how hard it is for terran. Imagine the new balance if terran never could attack any location protected by a pylon. With Reapers - at least, zergs had kinda figured out how to deal with them somewhat decently (before they got nerfed), and it was only vs Zerg they were imba. Speculate as we may on how dominant Protoss might have, speed Reapers were completely broken against Zerg and Terran did dominate Eh he propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into robo into adding 2 more gates . Its not really speculation at all. These are the facts; 1) Protoss eventually learned how to get to late game without terran. If KA wasn't nerfed, it would only have been even easier for them to get ot late game. 2) Terran almost never won late game back then. All wins simply came from early game/early midgame (blizzard posted statsitics confirming this). 3) I think anyone can agree today that HT's vs terrans are pretty strong. Those, it doesn't take a genius to figure out how broken TvP lategame would be today if KA was still in the game. Further, if you also go back and study VOD's of TvZ prereaper nerf, you will probably also see that the Reaper imbalance is somewhat exaggerated. Even the famous Morrow vs. Idra finale wasn't really decided by Reapers. In only one game (out of the 4) did Morrow get a signifciant lead after the Reaper harass. The two other reaper-games were quite even when they got into the midgame. But the strong thing about the Reaper was that they simply gave the terran a call-option of winning the game as there was no real bad outcome for him. Worst-case scenario was him getting even into the game. But if zerg made some small mistakes he could easily lose. However, that's simply a much less imbalance than unwinable late-game, which is what KA created back then. Nope. Without mothership core, toss would still need to open 3 gates and a super fast colo to not die to terran in the first 9 minutes of the game. Obviously that would play out different compared to than the game in hots today where protoss goes straight into tech with no units. What are you talking about? Everyone 1gated expanded in WOL. That's some insane rewriting of history. He propably meant the standard 1 gate fe into quick robo and then add 2 more gates. Can propably call that somewhat 3 gate quick colo, since you'd assume everyone does 1 gate fe :o
Ya he did. HotS with no mamma core = broken as sh*t, toss would be garbage unless you followed it up with a lot of toss buffs. It would also ruin PvP permanently again lol
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So many foreigners have switched off T, Morrow, TLO, Sjow... but I haven't heard of any switching to T. Such a shame, it's my fav race to watch.
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On December 09 2013 19:45 kckkryptonite wrote:
So many foreigners have switched off T, Morrow, TLO, Sjow... but I haven't heard of any switching to T. Such a shame, it's my fav race to watch.
Sjow has not yet switched. Morrow is playing terran and he never stopped playing terran(racepicker). TLO was random, terran, random and now zerg.
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On December 09 2013 07:44 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 05:58 Zealously wrote:On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:On December 03 2013 21:13 perfidiusrex wrote:
protoss ain't having that high winrate in tournaments.recently they might be good but overall not that many protoses win anything.despite being the whiniest zerg and terran usually dominate the tournament scene by far.hell jaedong beat dear in the world finals. The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that. PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here. To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example. You hit the nail on the head. Only SangHo made it through, and he played only PvZ in RO16, losing to Coca. He beat Polt once in group stages, which were still considered Up and Down. The other 3 Protoss in October (totalling 4 in the RO32) all lost their matches. Hence no PvTs in Code S. So yeah, the sample size for TvP was tiny, but that in itself is indicative of how bad Protoss was doing. Funny enough, there were quite a few Protoss in Code A, but they all had PvZs, including the infamous MC vs. Monster matchup where Monster literally just went mass infestor and killed MC with Infested Terrans in an all-in on Dual Sight. That knocked him out of the GSL.
You used 65% in October as proof of peak 1-1-1 domination when immortal buff was in august and in adjacent to October months winrates were 54% and 45%. So this 65% is just reason of small sample size.and not peak of 1-1-1 domination.
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I think they switch off more because of boredom rather than a race being imba. It also pays to have played a different race competitively, because you know what they want or what they look like they want.
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On December 09 2013 08:13 rANDY wrote:
Is the goal top 50 on EU or NA? I seee he has been playing on NA even though he is living in EU (I think?). I hope he is using NA for some practice then using an account on EU, that would be a lot more impressive if he made it.
I heard him talking to someone else while on stream and mentioning that he was learning the race on the NA server and then would be bringing it to EU where he would try to get top 50.
His strategy is probably to play out most of the month on NA, practice a lot of builds and get a good feel of the metagame, and then he'll probably switch to EU towards the end of the month and make a huge push. With the bonus pool he'll begin with, he will climb the ladder extremely quickly. On NA he made it to Diamond in the first day, and then Masters on day 2, and had he continued winning, could have had enough points for GM within a day or two after that. He can probably do the same thing on EU, but much more efficiently, since he will actually know the race and shouldn't lose any games to his opponents until high masters.
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On December 10 2013 01:31 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2013 07:44 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 05:58 Zealously wrote:On December 09 2013 05:52 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 05:28 Ben... wrote:On December 09 2013 02:32 keglu wrote:On December 09 2013 01:49 Ben... wrote:On December 06 2013 10:14 tomatriedes wrote:On December 04 2013 01:34 keglu wrote:On December 03 2013 21:29 Green_25 wrote:
[quote]
The game is balanced at the highest levels noones denying that.
PvT is a 55% last month. This is basically worse than in 1/1/1 domination period. In Korea TvP was 61% during 1-1-1 domination. Near the end of the 1/1/1 era it was 65% in Korea. This GSL only SangHo made it past RO32. Every other Protoss was either killed by 1/1/1 or by mass ling/infestor. It was a rough time to be Protoss. So many of the maps were super good for 1/1/1. Dual Sight and Xel'Naga Fortress were still in tournaments Which month do you consider "end of 1/1/1" era? End of October, start of November, once the immortal buff had fully kicked in and Xel'Naga Fortress had been removed from the GSL pool. Note the massive evening out of winrates for November and December in TvP winrates: + Show Spoiler +There were 5 Protoss in the RO16 instead of 1 in GSL November. I checked October 2011 and amount of TvP - GSL Code S - 0 - GSL Code A -0 - GSTL:1 - U&D :6 - code B :27 So i want just to point out that we are talking about 35-40 games sample size here. To be fair, there being so few TvPs played could be an indication of imbalance in itself. Not that it necessarily was in this case, but if there are no Protoss players in Code S, then objectively Protoss is in a bad spot and no TvPs can be played in the first place, for example. You hit the nail on the head. Only SangHo made it through, and he played only PvZ in RO16, losing to Coca. He beat Polt once in group stages, which were still considered Up and Down. The other 3 Protoss in October (totalling 4 in the RO32) all lost their matches. Hence no PvTs in Code S. So yeah, the sample size for TvP was tiny, but that in itself is indicative of how bad Protoss was doing. Funny enough, there were quite a few Protoss in Code A, but they all had PvZs, including the infamous MC vs. Monster matchup where Monster literally just went mass infestor and killed MC with Infested Terrans in an all-in on Dual Sight. That knocked him out of the GSL. You used 65% in October as proof of peak 1-1-1 domination when immortal buff was in august and in adjacent to October months winrates were 54% and 45%. So this 65% is just reason of small sample size.and not peak of 1-1-1 domination. Immortal buff was end of September:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Patch_1.4.0
Hence why I said the end of the 1/1/1 era was the end of October/start of November, because that was the time when the effects of that era started wearing off and we started seeing Protoss in Code S again (We had 5 in November Code S rather than just SangHo). For October, there were far fewer Protoss as a result of the previous seasons having most of them removed.
And as I explained, the horrible sample size was a result of a combination of Protoss having trouble in PvZ against infestor based compositions (this was before the Neural nerf) and the 1/1/1, which resulted in nearly no Protoss being in Code S. The September 20th patch fixed both of those issues and allowed Protoss back into the game. They also nerfed fungal damage too so it wasn't so good against armoured, which obviously would affect PvZ significantly. Most importantly, the map switch in November gave Protoss relief from some of the maps that were favoured heavily against them like Xel'Naga Fortress.
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Being coached by Naniwa on stream now (in Swedish)
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Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time.
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On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time.
Sure you are not looking at only Master?
He's currently ranked 73 in NA Masters, via http://nios.kr/sc2/us/1v1/hots/master/ .
Never liked SC2ranks.
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Huh? The ranks are divided up in leagues? Interesting, didn't knew that. Definitely good to know, but am I the only one who thinks that it is counterintuitive?
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On December 10 2013 22:43 JustPassingBy wrote:
Huh? The ranks are divided up in leagues? Interesting, didn't knew that. Definitely good to know, but am I the only one who thinks that it is counterintuitive?
Yes lol How is cross-league ranking intuitive?
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On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time.
He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc)
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On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc)
That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR
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On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR
Though at that level of ladder, points are pretty well indicative of MMR if they've spent all of their bonus pool.
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On December 10 2013 23:48 Thallis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR Though at that level of ladder, points are pretty well indicative of MMR if they've spent all of their bonus pool.
A pro who's winning enough to get to GM MMR will be top 1 Masters eventually.
GM is only 200 people so he has to actually pass someone.
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On December 10 2013 23:50 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 23:48 Thallis wrote:On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR Though at that level of ladder, points are pretty well indicative of MMR if they've spent all of their bonus pool. A pro who's winning enough to get to GM MMR will be top 1 Masters eventually. GM is only 200 people so he has to actually pass someone.
Nop, for exemple in EU, Dayshi is like top200 master, but if he plays some games he will up GM because he has a high MMR, even if he has not that much point.
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On December 10 2013 23:55 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On December 10 2013 23:48 Thallis wrote:On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR Though at that level of ladder, points are pretty well indicative of MMR if they've spent all of their bonus pool. A pro who's winning enough to get to GM MMR will be top 1 Masters eventually. GM is only 200 people so he has to actually pass someone. Nop, for exemple in EU, Dayshi is like top200 master, but if he plays some games he will up GM because he has a high MMR, even if he has not that much point.
Bonus pool + amount of point is probably the best indicator you can get to estimate your MMR.
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On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR
The guy with the highest point, assuming no bonus pool, have the highest MMR
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On December 10 2013 23:55 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On December 10 2013 23:48 Thallis wrote:On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR Though at that level of ladder, points are pretty well indicative of MMR if they've spent all of their bonus pool. A pro who's winning enough to get to GM MMR will be top 1 Masters eventually. GM is only 200 people so he has to actually pass someone. Nop, for exemple in EU, Dayshi is like top200 master, but if he plays some games he will up GM because he has a high MMR, even if he has not that much point.
That's because Dayshy was GM before.
If you never been in gm you need to be top #1-3 master of your region and wait for an open spot.
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On December 11 2013 00:30 Lochland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR The guy with the highest point, assuming no bonus pool, have the highest MMR
Wrong. As long as the bonus pool is around, the points will never reflect MMR. Of course the more a player plays outside of his bonus pool, the more his points will converge to his MMR (if that makes sense). A counterexample to your statement would be a player who barely plays enough to burn down his bonus pool and always lose. He will lose in MMR, but his points stay roughly untouched. But in high masters and above, players tend to play enough games that the points can give you a rough estimate of his MMR.
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He can play in SEA and get top 20 GM without difficulty.
SEA has only 16 GM for now :p
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He plays so slow, can he change his name to sjowbro? :D
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On December 10 2013 20:17 Tobblish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. Sure you are not looking at only Master? He's currently ranked 73 in NA Masters, via http://nios.kr/sc2/us/1v1/hots/master/ . Never liked SC2ranks.
That's cute, right now he's 74th, and the 73rd is PatCHZERG
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On December 11 2013 00:31 Lochland wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2013 23:55 Faust852 wrote:On December 10 2013 23:50 DinoMight wrote:On December 10 2013 23:48 Thallis wrote:On December 10 2013 23:26 ffadicted wrote:On December 10 2013 22:53 Lochland wrote:On December 10 2013 20:01 JustPassingBy wrote:
Weird that Sjow can be Top100 on NA according to region rank on sc2ranks, yet still not in GM. Either sc2ranks or the GM league is not working as it is supposed to... but maybe it just needs a little bit more time. He's top 100 of the masters. He need to be #1 to get promoted to GM (if there is an open spot ofc) That's not how it works, it doesn't run on points, but on hidden MMR Though at that level of ladder, points are pretty well indicative of MMR if they've spent all of their bonus pool. A pro who's winning enough to get to GM MMR will be top 1 Masters eventually. GM is only 200 people so he has to actually pass someone. Nop, for exemple in EU, Dayshi is like top200 master, but if he plays some games he will up GM because he has a high MMR, even if he has not that much point. That's because Dayshy was GM before. If you never been in gm you need to be top #1-3 master of your region and wait for an open spot.
No, the players in GM aren't necessarily the top 200 players based on MMR. Some of them lose/decay whatever their hidden MMR is, and some are overtaken by players outside of said ladder (however, at the time of promotion they were obviously ranked in the top 200). I was ranked probably around 10th and promoted to GM before, for example. That simply means that I was top 200 in MMR at the time of promotion despite not being top 3 or whatever.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XII8Mh.png)
