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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:16 sAsImre wrote: Select, the guy who lost a move command reaper into slow ling at 4min. What a valid player to watch the effect of the patch. You know hes is the only terran that is streaming right now, right? And last time I checked, he was still very good. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12596 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:16 sAsImre wrote: Select, the guy who lost a move command reaper into slow ling at 4min. What a valid player to watch the effect of the patch. I'm confused how you think that what you just said helps your point. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
Tank attack speed buff... hmm... where do I remember that from... Oh yes! My thread way back in early Beta when I suggested it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 The same thread where I said Hellbats were OP, but they released them as-is, and how many nerfs did it take to get them under control? | ||
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Musicus
Germany23580 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:15 Plansix wrote: I know, I try to agree that the tank was really awesome in Select's game and marines still killed mutas that tried to kill the tanks. Who would have known that I was flame baiting? Yeah whatever^^. Btw good point about widow mine splash affecting your own marines, you can definitely control your marines more freely to go after mutas with tanks. Didn't think about it. Select's stream is really great right now, considering it was his first game with this style; I really think he is on to something once his turret/thor timings are more crisp against mutas. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:18 Nebuchad wrote: I'm confused how you think that what you just said helps your point. low-mid level foreigners must be ignore if you want to balance the game. Exactly the kind of foreigner who played the XMG tournament. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:16 dyDrawer wrote: I'm giving a summary of my friend's opinion on Mech, who meched his away to top Masters EU (he doesn't have a Team Liquid account). I feel like the Siege Tank buff is NOT a right step towards making mech more viable against Protoss and Zerg. I'd like to see keeping its attack speed the same (or even nerfing it if you feel it's too stronk), but maybe do something about the time it takes to siege and unsiege (maybe an Armory unlocked upgrade if not straight out buffing it). The biggest problem I feel with Mech is its pace: it just cannot keep up with the pace of today's metagame. When you're having a 200/200 maxed out army, Mech is actually deceptively strong against Protoss, and will easily beat a Protoss player who does not know how to properly counter. Immortals will lose cost efficiency once Siege Tanks reach critical mass, while High Templars can be zoned out by mobile Hellions. Yes, Hellions are still critical. They are the mobility factor that you desperately need in such a slow army. Hellbats are still important in straight up engagements to sponge damage and deal with Zealots, but without Hellions it can be difficult to stop harasses and you WILL be Stormed to death (Bomber vs. Rain, Anaconda, OSL semis). Of course, Protoss air (Carrier/Tempest/Void Ray) still poses a threat to a ground based Mech army, but considering Protoss air is more expensive, that is to be expected, and Terran should be making transitions into its own fleet or hit a timing before Protoss air reaches critical mass. My point is: army composition getting hard countered is not the direst problem in TvP mech. Stopping harassment can be a little challenging, but with Hellions, Turrets etc. it's doable, and a testament of your mechanics. The problem with Siege Tank based Mech, is its effectiveness reduces dramatically once Tanks are unsieged. The key to Siege Tanks retaining cost efficiency against Immortals is the splash damage. Thors and unsieged Tanks simply cannot match the sheer efficiency of the Immortal (it's a really good unit, I know). So when Tanks are unsieged you can't win, but when they're sieged you can't push. Protoss can stall and soften the Mech push so much and buy so much time by forcing sieging and unsieging. Increasing the speed of sieging/unsieging definitely helps addressing this problem. Similar problem is even more dire in TvZ. Mech is very good against most pre-Hive compositions. Swarm Hosts don't necessarily kill a Mech army, because of the splash and range from Tanks. But again, Tanks need to be sieged to deal with Swarm Hosts. More importantly, Vipers with Blinding Cloud is the true counter to mech, even more so than Immortals IMO. Again, sieging and unsieging speed buff also helps address these issues. Hmm... That's an interesting thought about transformation speed. Yeah, you got a good point about that. I think it would be nice if the transformation speed of vikings and Hellions were reduced too for greater utility. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:19 BronzeKnee wrote: Tank attack speed buff... hmm... where do I remember that from... Oh yes! My thread way back in early Beta when I suggested it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=378373 The same thread where I said Hellbats were OP, but they released them as-is, and how many nerfs did it take to get them under control? only 2 nerfs actually for the hellbat :p | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:19 Musicus wrote: Yeah whatever^^. Btw good point about widow mine splash affecting your own marines, you can definitely control your marines more freely to go after mutas with tanks. Didn't think about it. Select's stream is really great right now, considering it was his first game with this style; I really think he is on to something once his turret/thor timings are more crisp against mutas. The way mines worked sort of hurt marines against mutas, since they needed to spread out so much to avoid getting mauled. They don't have that problem when they are protecting tanks and it makes them much strong against mutas. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:18 Plansix wrote: You know hes is the only terran that is streaming right now, right? And last time I checked, he was still very good. 1. he's not very good, and that's since before he switched to dota2. 2. Apoc is streaming, but shit games on an alt tho. | ||
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Mysticesper
United States1183 Posts
What if Siege Tanks couldn't be viper pulled while in siege mode, but could be pulled while in normal mode. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:22 sAsImre wrote: 1. he's not very good, and that's since before he switched to dota2. 2. Apoc is streaming, but shit games on an alt tho. Apoc wasn't streaming when I made the comment, FYI. And once again, select is a very good player. He just isn't Polt or Maru, but who is now a days? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27465 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:22 sAsImre wrote: 1. he's not very good, and that's since before he switched to dota2. 2. Apoc is streaming, but shit games on an alt tho. He still plays at a level far above that which pretty much everyone who uses this forum except other pros will play at. I mean we could just wait until the next WCS Kr season and not pass any judgement until then? | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
I hope they know what they're doing with this patch, because both from my humble point of view and at the highest level, mines didn't seem terribly OP... And I'm not sure this buff to the tank compensates for the nerf to the mine, but eh, why not. Edit: I'm fine with the oracle and roach changes. Though sOs's oracles seemed definitely able to do their job :D | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
I'd like to see keeping its attack speed the same (or even nerfing it if you feel it's too stronk), but maybe do something about the time it takes to siege and unsiege (maybe an Armory unlocked upgrade if not straight out buffing it). If this tank change doesn't prove to be enough, I'd like to see some sort of mobility buff, but perhaps not the one you propose. A good part of the fun, drama and skill in Tank play is timing sieging and unsieging. Knowing when you can get away with it (or creating situations where you can, whether via leapfrogging, pressure elsewhere on the map, or protection from other support units) is one of the biggest things separating mech players. To reduce siege time would be to simplify tank play to an enormous degree, and I think then it might really become boring. Instead, I'd rather see a speed buff to unsieged Tanks. I'm not talking super fast, but taking their speed up a bit to 2.5 or even 2.75 would make it easier for Terran players to cross the map at a faster pace with Tanks, cover more ground, and reinforce...while still preserving the element of skill involved in timing sieging and unsieging. At this point, despite the early testing done it will be hard to say whether the current tank buffs prove sufficient. I'm more optimistic than many that they will, but I'm not so hubristic as to declare it a certainty without seeing it in play. But if they don't, then looking at Tank mobility, while still preserving the skill factor involved in effective leapfrogging and similar manuevers, would be one approach worth playing around with. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:23 Plansix wrote: Apoc wasn't streaming when I made the comment, FYI. And once again, select is a very good player. He just isn't Polt or Maru, but who is now a days? he's a random gm which is very far from a very good player. a good player doesn't lose a reaper to slow ling because he's microing his marine to kill an ovie, and you're lieing about apoc not streaming at the time of your post. | ||
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Eventine
United States307 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:22 sAsImre wrote: 1. he's not very good, and that's since before he switched to dota2. 2. Apoc is streaming, but shit games on an alt tho. neither is anyone who is posting in this thread. this thread is essentially a whine exercise for arm chair sc2 players. | ||
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:25 hansonslee wrote: he didn't, it was a typo on the battle net post too so. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46606 Posts
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hansonslee
United States2027 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:26 sAsImre wrote: he didn't, it was a typo on the battle net post too so. Yeah, I caught that. That's why I deleted my post. | ||
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