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On November 12 2013 10:56 Snusmumriken wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 10:51 HolyArrow wrote:On November 12 2013 10:39 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 12 2013 10:35 OneSpeed wrote:
Let's say an Oracle with the best proxy hit your base at ~~ 3:20 minutes, how are we (terrans) suppose to run after them? they melt marines like hellbats (pre-patch) melted workers.... Don't run after them until you've researched stim, gotten a turret, or gotten a viking out. This is the exact same shit people were saying when Prisms were buffed to actually have decent speed. "But what will we do now that our vikings and/or marines can't effortlessly chase down and kill prisms?" Build static d, build vikings, or build a decent little squad of units and leave them at home. its not rocket science, and its far from impossible to overcome. Lol I remember all the bitching about the WP buffs back then. So much shortsighted theorycrafting about how they'd completely break PvT... bullshit. I remember the polls back then it had like 70% approval. As a terran I didnt complain once about that buff, I thought it was a good idea.
I never said that YOU complained about it, nor do I see how the polls are relevant to my claim. I can clearly remember that within the thread, there was plenty of bitching going on, despite the polls. Perhaps a vocal minority, but still sizeable.
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I couldn't care less about the WM nerf as a Terran or Oracle buff, I think think TvT is going to be really annoying now. If you go bio and they go mech you want to transition into BC's late game, and as you do that they are already making reactored 3-3 vikings because of the shared upgrades while your BC's are 2-1 at best. Makes mech seem significantly more preferable in TvT which I despise :o
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On November 12 2013 11:14 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:09 kaos00 wrote:
How many Terran champions are there in WCS compared to Zerg? Obviously the Terran whine is OP.
If you're not top .05% of the game, then get better. On the ladder, you'll win 50%~ of your games. If that isn't enough, then go play basketball with midgets or something that satisfies you. Yeah so fuck every people in this thread, this game etc because they can't train 10h/day. What's your point ? SC2 is not only for thee pro, but for us all. And at my level, theses changes are certainly not balanced.
So by your reasoning, unskilled players should always be able to utilize things even if they don't have the mechanics? That makes no sense. Why have leagues or skill differentials at all?
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I hate the Oracle speed buff, why isn't acceleration enough?? I'm fearing PvP T_T
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So much whine :o
You could, you know, learn how to make new strats or wait or copy others once they figure this out? 8)
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only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo.
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo.
I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between.
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Someone needs to explain me why 21shoots/min instead of 20 is "so enormous it's almost broken omg" All I can imagine is a shitty unit being surrounded before shooting twice anyway.
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On November 12 2013 11:48 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo. I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between.
I disagree. A minor cost or build time buff wouldn't be gamebreaking. For example, if Carriers spawned with 8 interceptors instead of 4, it'd help slightly reduce the window of vulnerability when teching to Carriers (effectively 100 minerals cheaper and 30 seconds less to full strength) without making the unit itself overpowered.
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On November 12 2013 11:41 Grobyc wrote:
I couldn't care less about the WM nerf as a Terran or Oracle buff, I think think TvT is going to be really annoying now. If you go bio and they go mech you want to transition into BC's late game, and as you do that they are already making reactored 3-3 vikings because of the shared upgrades while your BC's are 2-1 at best. Makes mech seem significantly more preferable in TvT which I despise :o
nah man mech tvt is the best!!! Oracle change is beyond retarded when protoss is such a powerful race right now. WM nerf seems a little to big, should do it in smaller steps to find the best balance between tank/mine. Time to go mech every game i guess
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Changes seem good and I`m excited to see how it shakes up the meta. Way too many clueless ppl whining though, oracles are still made of paper and the tank + upgrade buff will probably help terran overall more than the mine nerf hurts them
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Canada16217 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:48 NovemberstOrm wrote:On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo. I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between. I disagree. A minor cost or build time buff wouldn't be gamebreaking. For example, if Carriers spawned with 8 interceptors instead of 4, it'd help slightly reduce the window of vulnerability when teching to Carriers (effectively 100 minerals cheaper and 30 seconds less to full strength) without making the unit itself overpowered.
Do you think it can be a a staple unit in the game? Like one that is used frequently?
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On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo.
Bomber's tank push (I am guessing you are referring to g4 with Soulkey) worked because Soulkey went for a roach/bane bust which didn't do much damage.
And I don't get DK's oracle change which is suppose to make oracles been kept in the mid game. What about banshees and reapers? Ts don't get to use those units after early game either...
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On November 12 2013 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:48 NovemberstOrm wrote:On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo. I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between. I disagree. A minor cost or build time buff wouldn't be gamebreaking. For example, if Carriers spawned with 8 interceptors instead of 4, it'd help slightly reduce the window of vulnerability when teching to Carriers (effectively 100 minerals cheaper and 30 seconds less to full strength) without making the unit itself overpowered.
i think you have to look at the carrier as "why would i build this instead of phoenix/voidray"
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On November 12 2013 11:50 Faust852 wrote:
Someone needs to explain me why 21shoots/min instead of 20 is "so enormous it's almost broken omg" All I can imagine is a shitty unit being surrounded before shooting twice anyway.
Why would you think shots per minute is somehow a useful metric? The buff is still enormously useful regardless of how many "extra" shots you get off, because the shots you do get will be coming faster, which means killing enemy units at a faster rate, which reduces how much time they're alive to attack you, which reduces how much damage you take and preserves more of your units, which means your units are alive longer to deal damage, which kills the enemy faster, etc. etc. Small changes in dps can have a powerful snowballing effect on engagements, and that becomes even truer for long range aoe units that kill things in clumps.
The truth is no one really knows yet whether this buff will be too strong, not enough, or just right. But what we do know is that looking at as simply a matter of shots per minute is a deeply inane approach to analysis.
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On November 12 2013 11:59 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:53 awesomoecalypse wrote:On November 12 2013 11:48 NovemberstOrm wrote:On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo. I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between. I disagree. A minor cost or build time buff wouldn't be gamebreaking. For example, if Carriers spawned with 8 interceptors instead of 4, it'd help slightly reduce the window of vulnerability when teching to Carriers (effectively 100 minerals cheaper and 30 seconds less to full strength) without making the unit itself overpowered. Do you think it can be a a staple unit in the game? Like one that is used frequently?
No, but I do think it could have a small place, especially if Mech is made viable vs. P. Its not like Toss has a shortage of lategame options in all matchups, so I don't think its purely necessary, but it could be cool if they had even a small place in the metagame. They are an iconic Protoss unit, after all.
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On November 12 2013 12:01 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:50 Faust852 wrote:
Someone needs to explain me why 21shoots/min instead of 20 is "so enormous it's almost broken omg" All I can imagine is a shitty unit being surrounded before shooting twice anyway. Small changes in dps can have a powerful snowballing effect on engagements, and that becomes even truer for long range aoe units that kill things in clumps.
What about the HUGE change in widow mine DPS? Wouldn't that have a HUGE snowballing effect?
I don't thinking terrans are complaining about tank changes in a vacuum. Obviously, it buffs the tank. However, the widow mine DPS was nerfed much more drastically.
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Awesome gonna play as random today to get to see how each works
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On November 12 2013 11:50 Faust852 wrote:
Someone needs to explain me why 21shoots/min instead of 20 is "so enormous it's almost broken omg" All I can imagine is a shitty unit being surrounded before shooting twice anyway.
well, if you have 20 tanks its gonna give you 21 sh....
nope, you are right; shitty unit being surrounded before shooting twice anyways. -_-
meh, lets wait and see...
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Canada13406 Posts
On November 12 2013 11:48 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2013 11:47 VayneAuthority wrote:
only people that played league at any point would understand the magnitude of the tank change. Attack speed changes even at lower then 10% is such a large difference to the game. Bomber's style push that he displayed at blizzcon with the Marines/tanks will be extremely hard to stop I think for a while until people learn what to do against it.
Oracle buff is stupid, it already sees a lot of use. what about the carrier, even the tempest(which has its niche but obviously is still a but underpowered)
armory buff is pretty bad as well, why makes choices hurp durp here just have upgrades for everything.
Mech TvP is shaping up to be absurdly strong between those two changes once people learn how to play it.
The roach change could force observers which is obviously bad for protoss, seems like not a well thought out change considering the 2 counters to roach come out of robo. I don't think you can realistically buff the carrier without it being over-powered, it will always be over-powered or under-powered never in between.
Make it build in less than 120 seconds. Done. 100 seconds would be enough. They just take too long to make.
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EPT
