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On September 24 2013 05:02 Aquila- wrote:
As always from Blizzard completely random things in the patchnotes. Don't they think about the numbers at all before posting this? A DT beeing as fast as a stimmed Marine? Buffing Protoss cheese even more? Reducing mine Aoe by 60,5%? SERIOUSLY?
Balance changes that negatively affect my own race? SERIOUSLY?
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fast DT drop that cant be defended without turrets on whole base by terran if protoss just microes dts... + even faster oracle
with deadly protoss late game terran is just doomed even more than before vs protoss . + mech vs zerg, protoss still dont exist . They making protoss for middle master terran like wall what u cant jump behind or see the top......
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On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land.
No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas.
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United Kingdom184 Posts
The DT speed is impossible unless Terran can make Ravens without techlab, or DT damage is havled. DT will be as fast as stim marines - except that in TvP there is no way a Terran can get stim before a DT rush meaning that it is literally impossible to catch a DT by scanning and chasing them with marines.
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Canada16217 Posts
These changes seem less about balance and more about overall gameplay.
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On September 24 2013 04:59 Undead1993 wrote:
as a toss, i am the happiest man alive right now!
Having even stronger coinflippy options makes you that happy ? Man, you must have a disgusting playstyle...
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On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:25 shid0x wrote:
Heya little man you like macro ?
well we don't.
-Blizzard 2013. We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins. Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map.
Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol
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On September 24 2013 05:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:59 Undead1993 wrote:
as a toss, i am the happiest man alive right now! Having even stronger coinflippy options makes you that happy ? Man, you must have a disgusting playstyle...
it is not coinflippy if it becomes a viable and solid option....(Taste some of your own medicine),
it still way less annoying then cloak banshee openings in WoL, which were standard and solid.
its funny, that the protoss changes with the least effect on the game get the most critics here, double standards.
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On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas.
I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart.
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I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh*
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On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:31 shid0x wrote:On September 24 2013 04:29 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:25 shid0x wrote:
Heya little man you like macro ?
well we don't.
-Blizzard 2013. We got that macro thing down. We need to get back to harassing and earning those expansions. Oh yeah and proxy oracle and DT and cocaine are gonna fix that ? No,its just gonna be more cheese opportunities. At least the zerg change asks you to use you brain for a bit. Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins. Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol
No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also just be a few chargelots. It makes 0 difference because they're both going to do a lot of damage if left unopposed when you react slowly/poorly. 
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On September 24 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas. I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart.
Yeah, this is true. Personally, all I want to see is design where there's trade off between two different choices like Warp Gate vs Gateway and smaller, even if still fast, engagements. But that's a pipe dream and I'm gonna just end up crying about balance changes. I guess it doesn't help that I lost my last 5 TvP's from DT harass at 5 bases.
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On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh*
the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game
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Can the oracle's tag ability tag cloaked burrowed units?
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On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh*
At least we are consistent. I also love how everyone will post in this thread, but on one plays the test map in question.
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To preface these comments I am a Protoss Player
1. Mech - I'm happy to finally see Mech get a buff of some kind + with the nerf of Widow Mine I think we will see more variation from Terran when playing Zerg. I don't think the Widow Mine buff changes any other matchup because it will still kill clumped workers when they stack. I think combining the upgrades is long overdue and was surprised it didn't happen on the last update.
2. Roach - I feel like this isn't utilized a whole lot and don't think this "buff" really changes a whole lot. For the players that do use it...They can't complain.
3. DT's and Oracles: I love the DT speed upgrade as a Protoss to be able to deal with Terran drops more effectively but I think the Oracle should remain as is. I think moving it to only 100 makes Protoss Stargate/Gateway All-Ins which are common even more likely, it won't create Oracle play late game.
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On September 24 2013 05:07 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:05 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Undead1993 wrote:
as a toss, i am the happiest man alive right now! Having even stronger coinflippy options makes you that happy ? Man, you must have a disgusting playstyle... not if coinflippy options becomes solid...
The thing is those harass options can never become parts of a real army because of how fragile they are. DTs evaporate once they can be detected and any serious anti-air force annihilates oracles in mid-lategame straight fights. I'm sorry but in their current state (glass cannons : low health and huge damage input) DTs and oracles will never be more than coinflippy harass options (less so for DTs since they're invisible and any good player should incorporate them in lategame). The true solid harass option for toss is warp prism, and I feel it's not even used enough now. Protoss is in a really fine state now, those patches would only make PvP uninteresting and unplayable again and give some random tosses undeserved build order wins.
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On September 24 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:On September 24 2013 04:45 Akusta wrote:
David Kim just throws out random stuff with no clue of their effects if you ask me. Looks like Terran is going back to the bottom. lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas. I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart.
It's not that it falls apart, it's just that ultimately it's up to Blizzard to make any changes so all we can do is discuss the issue. If the matter is purely theoretical there is very little cost to disagreeing, and it makes the discussion more fun if there is a wide variety of opinions.
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Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined: After 10,000 years, this change is finally free! Now to conquer Earth!
Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1: That's kind of extreme, but the nerf was needed.
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7: That's about equivalent to a +1 upgrade. Nice little buff, but maybe not that impactful, except in TvT. Should make tanks a little more viable in TvZ, but not much.
Oracle cost decreased from 150/150 to 150/100: Well, cheapening Dark Shrines let to more late game DTs, so...I'm not sold.
Dark Templar movement speed : This is totally broken. I love it. Faster than the speed of sound and light combined, stealthier than a mouse fart on the moon. This is the kind of utterly ludicrously good unit SC2 needs more of.
Roach speed upgrade also increases the burrowed roach movement speed from 1.41 to 2.25: Fuck yo' force fields. Probably not that important of a change, but worst case scenario is that is does nothing.
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Wow, not the total re-design of SC2 that I wanted, but that's a lot of changes.
While these changes are not the best, I think Blizzard knows SC2 is not doing well, so they are trying (lazy) ways to make things (possibly) more interesting.
I vote ineffectual in the long run.
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EPT
