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On September 24 2013 05:18 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:12 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:04 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:01 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:58 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:53 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:49 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:46 AnomalySC2 wrote:
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lol he knows what he is doing. He could probably beat any player with any race pretty easily. you're delusional I think he means most players, as in the entire SC2 player base, not pros.. That is a pretty safe bet that he can beat the vast majority of people who hate on the patch and thinks DK sucks at the game. That makes more sense, but at the same time, it's pretty obvious that the community as a whole and David Kim disagree on some key issues regarding the design of some of these units. A lot of what they're buffing doesn't really make sense, and a lot of the nerfs are just so overdone. WM's really freaking sucked for the first few months but baring Innovation, Zergs are competing with Terran's on every level. David Kim is by far better than me, but I can't for the life me understand his reasoning. Maybe I suck too much. If by disagree, you mean that everyone is bias towards the race that they play and always whines when these test notes come out, then sure. Also, I would point that that there are a number of people in the thread who have said they like the changes. My twitter feed is full of players and casters that are also excited. I don't think the "entire community" really ever agrees on anything except that icecream is awesome and beer is good. Even then, we have people who refuse to come to the promised land. No, I think if anything, we've come to see that the community agrees on some non-balance stuff like the design of the game, and that there's something essentially wrong/different. Just from the topics here calling for changes in the game/scene and what not, it seems that we agree on the big ideas. I think we have seen that a section of the community loves to talk about design and have endless discussions about BW as this abstract concept of greatness and then complain about SC2 a lot. People agree about stuff in theory, but when it comes down to the nitty gritty of changing things, that is when it all falls apart. Yeah, this is true. Personally, all I want to see is design where there's trade off between two different choices like Warp Gate vs Gateway and smaller, even if still fast, engagements. But that's a pipe dream and I'm gonna just end up crying about balance changes. I guess it doesn't help that I lost my last 5 TvP's from DT harass at 5 bases. That sounds like a personal problem with DTs. Trust me, I would have been crying in WoL if they buffed the banshee, since it was the bane of my life as a protoss. Warpgate is weird, but also kinda awesome. I would like to see them keep it as it and just make unit that need to travel more awesome(aka, more stargate, more robo, less mass warp ins.). Apparently what you want is like the opposite of 90% of Protoss players on here who want Gateway units to be able to stand up against MMM  DT's are hard for Terran to deal with because of the amount of attention required to deal with them vs the amount of attention required to use them. This speed buff makes them much harder to defend and quite a bit easier to use. That being said, I think it's a step in the right direction for giving Protoss a viable not hard-counter-able form of harass, but it's definitely going to make late game TvP hellish in terms of attention (not that it isn't already though).
I never mind building colossi or HTs. The game would be busted if I didn't need to have AOEs. I think that buffing DTs with a speed boost is a good move, since it takes supply away from the death ball and gets it out on the map. I don't think it should be as crazy as they put out there, but a little extra speed wouldn't hurt.
Note: Secretly, I do want my phoenix, immortal, zealot composition to be viable, but the meta game has not done me right.
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looks like its time to switch back to protoss... :S
no but on a more serious note, the DT buff will not make it into the game like this, you can count on that.
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@Grumbels I said that DT are more of a solid option, and they're already a very good unit in the current metagame. Nevertheless, I fear DT openings will be too hard to deal with in TvP since you'll absolutely need turrets when DTs arrive (you can't kill DTs with scan anymore if the patch goes live), and oracle buff will definitely make 3+ proxy oracles all-in really problematic in PvP and PvT while not really helping with the lategame viability of the unit. This is why I feel those suggestions are bad and hope they don't make it to the game. I'd rather see the oracle turned to a full-time detector, so that you could want to have oracles instead of observers (which are cheap, invisible and detectors) because the increase cost could be justified by the harassment potential and revelation.
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Terran has been winning much more than Protoss, and yet these poll results xD So terrible.
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2 mayor buffs for terrans? omg...
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On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."
Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking?
Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first."
No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes.
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United Kingdom1381 Posts
Oh god all those speed DTs... you could bait scans and outrun stimmed marines.
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Widow mine splash decreased, finally! Should have been year ago...
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On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 04:36 rd wrote:
[quote]
Not sure why people don't realize exactly why DT's are cheesy. It's because they rely on an opponent not having sufficient detection, and they're almost completely useless after that point. Now they're buffed so that they might be useable regardless of detection, and aren't reliant so much on a gamble anymore, but people will just thumbs it down anyways cause fuck inadvertently buffing Protoss all-ins.
Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going. The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO. The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins. So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough. Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this.
Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty.
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This is such a joke...zerg is struggling yet the other races gets buffed and zerg gets a retarded change which doesn't help at all.
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Except for DT speed (that seems "wtf?" ), all other changes are awesome. Please, do this, Blizzard!
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On September 24 2013 05:25 Darkthorn wrote:
This is such a joke...zerg is struggling yet the other races gets buffed and zerg gets a retarded change which doesn't help at all.
Dude we got the mine damage radius reduced. It literally what zergs have been asking for since hots was released
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As a random race player im completely undecided on all 6. I don't really use tanks but do use mines so im not gonna say anything there :p.
I hated roach spam ZvP a year ago and I don't want to promote any roach buffs for fear of ruining ZvP
Id like an oracle change rather then price change, not sure what this changes. Definately buffs to toss in teamgames =D
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Thinking about it, the buffed DTs can sound interesting engagement wise.
The problem is that for the Terrans, the current meta and economic investment on dealing with them makes the buff sound absolutely ridiculous. Maybe some further tweaking on Terran can bring out the potential in the change.
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On September 24 2013 05:15 Gullis wrote:
Mine nerf will certainly show what other options terran has in tvz especially with the proposed tank buff and it will probably make tvz more balanced. If the nerf is to big is hard to tell but I think it is necessary to further evolve the match up.
Quite frankly I am afraid this will put the matchup hugely in favor of zerg. Currently it might be slightly in favor of terran, but it isn't as bad as many claim.
The proposed widow mine nerf is gigantic. It isn't making them a bit worse, it is nerfing them into the ground against small units (lings, banelings mainly, also marines but it isn't like they are used against them), and stacked units (air). More than a factor 2.5 reduction in effectiveness against those is not exactly a minor change.
Then sure siege tanks are a tad stronger with this boost, but will it make mech or bio-mech viable? I doubt it personally. The issue isn't all that much how they do in a straight up fight, it is mobility. 4M is literally several times more mobile than anything with siege tanks. You cannot split an army with siege tanks in two to attack two locations at once, since the zerg will simply overrun one army first and then the next one.
The counter to fast mutas is by permantly attacking preventing them from ruining your day. With siege tanks you simply cannot do that. Not to mention they do quite bad against mutas.
I am a mech player myself, so it will only help me, but still I don't think mech/bio-mech is up to it now, also not with minor buffs, and I don't think such a huge nerf is a good idea. If they decided that siege tanks should have 2.5 times the splash area no one would think it to be a good idea either.
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On September 24 2013 05:27 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:25 Darkthorn wrote:
This is such a joke...zerg is struggling yet the other races gets buffed and zerg gets a retarded change which doesn't help at all. Dude we got the mine damage radius reduced. It literally what zergs have been asking for since hots was released
Doesn't matter, them Terran buffs are unstoppable.
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On September 24 2013 05:25 Darkthorn wrote:
This is such a joke...zerg is struggling yet the other races gets buffed and zerg gets a retarded change which doesn't help at all.
You seem to have missed the WM nerf?
Anyway zerg isn't struggling as much as you'd like people to think they are, you're clearly biased and making silly claims without backing them up. Instead of this eternal balance whine, maybe focus on gameplay instead of spamming [x] race (which happens to be the race I play on ladder, coincidence??!!) is so weak, and [y] change only makes it worse!
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Lol DT speed, let's just every unit faster!
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On September 24 2013 04:32 freetgy wrote:
funny how ever protoss change has a thumb down, while everything else gets an up despite the other changes beeing way more critical...
i suggest, that DTs should get a speed upgrade when charge is researched similar to the passiv speed bonus Zealots get when it is researched.
I don't know if it is funny. It just seems to be the way things work - TL hates Protoss and Blizzard forums hate Terran. I remember when they were thinking about making oracles harass better... posters acted like the sky was falling because nobody had figured out how to defend back then. Now everybody(?) knows how to defend proxy oracles, and yet are still freaking out for a tiny buff. I'll never understand these attitudes.
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So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough.
Your comment was so good it made me start laughing hysterically...
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EPT
