EPTOn September 24 2013 05:29 Die4Ever wrote:
Lol DT speed, let's just every unit faster!
Lol DT speed, let's just every unit faster!
haha, next patch: we doubled the games speed
6 possible balance changes - David Kim - Page 18
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
haha, next patch: we doubled the games speed | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I really hope that you or someone on your team reads this. As a Protoss player and without any racial bias, I can tell you that Oracles are pretty much only used for cheese. This is because they kill workers INSANELY fast if they manage to sneak into a mineral line. As the enemy has more units to defend, they become less useful at killing workers. This is why people stop making them. Oracles are really useful in the late game. Revelation is very helpful for keeping track of the enemy army. However, in any situation where revelation is useful, it's hard to imagine that 50 gas is going to break the bank. Therefore, if you want to make Oracles more useful in the late game, I would suggest buffing something that affects ONLY the late game, or something that cannot be abused in the early game. Perhaps you could increase the Oracle's sigh range. This will allow it to find the enemy army and cast Revelation on it from a safe distance away. It will cure the most common reason for late game Oracle deaths (flying into a bunch of corruptors / Thors / Vikings) and will achieve the same goal of Saving the Protoss player some gas. But unlike a cost reduction, it will not allow the Oracle to be abused in the early game. Regards, DinoMight PS - whenever you reduce the cost of a unit that is used primarily for cheese, you're going to get more cheese. Your balancing team really needs to look at "can this be used for cheese" more carefully, in my opinion. | ||
Falling
Canada11509 Posts
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7 .Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters Noooooooooooooo! The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time. Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything. (And if that nerfs the tank too much, then look at gas cost or supply cost.)  | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote: Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to make a line of depots and manage your rax re-rallies. I'm not sure if you understand me because you keep trying to tell me it's my incompetence that I even let stuff in my base. I'm not whining about that, not even close. DT/chargelot harass is one of the only forms of harass that a Protoss can do and they should be able to do it and it's great cause it's a very effective form of harass. The problem is that these DT's, are now going to be the speed of stimmed marines, they're going to be invisible which means you're going to have to scan around and that handling them, even with stuff in place is going to be stupidly hard to handle unless your base is half filled with turrets, and even then, you don't normally have turrets in the middle of your fucking base. Now imagine from a Terran's PoV, which I know you're not actually playing Terran full time. There's a group of DT's running around in your base, that's scary enough. Now I have to dedicate a part of my army, either a rerally or a group from my main army to go hunt it down and kill it. Now I have to go there and hope it doesn't outrun my units, cause hey, they're just as fast now, WHILE concentrating on my main army in hopes that I don't get stormed and caught out of position. Now that I've explained that to you, you're going to probably tell me OH MAKE SOME DEPOTS THAT'LL HOLD THEM OFF LOL. I'm still waiting on that replay. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote: Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote: Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. | ||
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ImperialFist
790 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote: Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:29 Blacklizard wrote: I don't know if it is funny. It just seems to be the way things work - TL hates Protoss and Blizzard forums hate Terran. I remember when they were thinking about making oracles harass better... posters acted like the sky was falling because nobody had figured out how to defend back then. Now everybody(?) knows how to defend proxy oracles, and yet are still freaking out for a tiny buff. I'll never understand these attitudes. I think people are getting angry at the oracle buff cause it's not really what the oracle needs to be successful/get more use? That's what it seems like from what I'm reading. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:30 Falling wrote: . Noooooooooooooo! The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time. Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything. Oh come on falling, its a faster game and the siege tank was the only one who didn't speed up. It can fire it alittle quicker and we will all be ok. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:30 DinoMight wrote: Dear David Kim, I really hope that you or someone on your team reads this. As a Protoss player and without any racial bias, I can tell you that Oracles are pretty much only used for cheese. This is because they kill workers INSANELY fast if they manage to sneak into a mineral line. As the enemy has more units to defend, they become less useful at killing workers. This is why people stop making them. Oracles are really useful in the late game. Revelation is very helpful for keeping track of the enemy army. However, in any situation where revelation is useful, it's hard to imagine that 50 gas is going to break the bank. Therefore, if you want to make Oracles more useful in the late game, I would suggest buffing something that affects ONLY the late game, or something that cannot be abused in the early game. Perhaps you could increase the Oracle's sigh range. This will allow it to find the enemy army and cast Revelation on it from a safe distance away. It will cure the most common reason for late game Oracle deaths (flying into a bunch of corruptors / Thors / Vikings) and will achieve the same goal of Saving the Protoss player some gas. But unlike a cost reduction, it will not allow the Oracle to be abused in the early game. Regards, DinoMight This, plus making it a real detector. I don't know why oracle has to be such an unreliable spell-based detector, it'd break absolutely nothing to have it be a real detector. | ||
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Suikakuju
Germany238 Posts
I am really sad right now even thou I don´t know how these changes turn out on public. But again meh! | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:30 Falling wrote: . Noooooooooooooo! The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time. Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything. Someone in this thread was already asking for a faster set-up time. Honestly though, sometimes you have to make sacrifices and the siege tank can still be a good unit even if it doesn't live up to our ideals for how the concept should work out. For instance, the fact they're okay to use unsieged now (compared to BW) is hardly a negative aspect of them, and it might be a necessary evil to keep suggestions for faster set-up time at bay. | ||
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frontline-
Bulgaria281 Posts
This is just another panic move that only shows how inept they really are at handling things properly. These changes aren't good and the reasoning from Blizzard behind these propositions is pretty silly. Even after years they still have no idea what the major problems with the game are. | ||
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MstrJinbo
United States1251 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote: It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I thought it was because he was an android incapable of understanding the human emotion of balance rage  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote: It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote: Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. Time and time and time again people have proven themselves to be completely clueless about the actual consequences of changes. Remember the hundreds of people and the dozens of pros claiming the Spore Crawler change wouldn't change ZvZ's mutafest? The people who said Fungal Growth being a projectile would do absolutely nothing? The people that said Ultralisk's flat damage change didn't matter because they were still useless? You can "discern or intuit" plenty from patch notes. People are just fucking horrible at it. | ||
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Zelniq
United States7166 Posts
Same thing goes for a nydus improvement to make it less gimmicky. Right now the way it often functions is that you try to hope he doesn't spot your first attempt to sneak it in his base, which is often not going to happen given that it takes 20 seconds to go up, and is too easy to kill by just some workers or a couple units. As soon as he knows you have a nydus (it's possible he saw the Network going up as well), then it feels impossible to drop it inside now that he knows and each attempt costing 100/100, can't be canceled for any refund is just too brutal of a risk. Just making it cost much less to make a worm, and make it cancel-able, would help a ton. And/or decreasing the build time from 20 to 15 seconds maybe, or an Armor increase so workers aren't so good at killing them. | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On September 24 2013 05:32 Suikakuju wrote: I honestly can´t see how this helps Zerg in struggle vs T and P. And I can tell that Zerg has a hard time right now, when I take a look at the win ratio and tournaments. I am really sad right now even thou I don´t know how these changes turn out on public. But again meh! You don't see how a 2.5 times decrease of splash area of WM would help zerg? Maybe give zerg then control of terran supply depots so they can lower them? How much more of a buff do you want? Imagine baneling splash area was decreased by a factor of 2.5... Not to mention if I look at tournaments it doesn't look that bad. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
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huller20
United States112 Posts
The widow mine nerf was much needed. Its absurd that it cist as much as a roach and did that much damage. Other upgrades e.g. DT seems to just make it more interesting...go for it I say. | ||
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