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6 possible balance changes - David Kim - Page 18

Forum Index > SC2 General
1350 CommentsPost a Reply
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Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
September 23 2013 20:30 GMT
#341
On September 24 2013 05:29 Die4Ever wrote:
Lol DT speed, let's just every unit faster!


haha, next patch: we doubled the games speed
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 20:46:19
September 23 2013 20:30 GMT
#342
Dear David Kim,

I really hope that you or someone on your team reads this.

As a Protoss player and without any racial bias, I can tell you that Oracles are pretty much only used for cheese. This is because they kill workers INSANELY fast if they manage to sneak into a mineral line. As the enemy has more units to defend, they become less useful at killing workers. This is why people stop making them.

Oracles are really useful in the late game. Revelation is very helpful for keeping track of the enemy army. However, in any situation where revelation is useful, it's hard to imagine that 50 gas is going to break the bank. Therefore, if you want to make Oracles more useful in the late game, I would suggest buffing something that affects ONLY the late game, or something that cannot be abused in the early game.

Perhaps you could increase the Oracle's sigh range. This will allow it to find the enemy army and cast Revelation on it from a safe distance away. It will cure the most common reason for late game Oracle deaths (flying into a bunch of corruptors / Thors / Vikings) and will achieve the same goal of Saving the Protoss player some gas. But unlike a cost reduction, it will not allow the Oracle to be abused in the early game.

Regards,

DinoMight


PS - whenever you reduce the cost of a unit that is used primarily for cheese, you're going to get more cheese. Your balancing team really needs to look at "can this be used for cheese" more carefully, in my opinion.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 20:38:35
September 23 2013 20:30 GMT
#343
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7

Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters
.
Noooooooooooooo!

The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time.
Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything. (And if that nerfs the tank too much, then look at gas cost or supply cost.)

Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
September 23 2013 20:30 GMT
#344
On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going.


The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO.

The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins.


So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough.


Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map.


Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol


No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react.


You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans.


And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard.

I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this.


Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to make a line of depots and manage your rax re-rallies.


I'm not sure if you understand me because you keep trying to tell me it's my incompetence that I even let stuff in my base.

I'm not whining about that, not even close. DT/chargelot harass is one of the only forms of harass that a Protoss can do and they should be able to do it and it's great cause it's a very effective form of harass.

The problem is that these DT's, are now going to be the speed of stimmed marines, they're going to be invisible which means you're going to have to scan around and that handling them, even with stuff in place is going to be stupidly hard to handle unless your base is half filled with turrets, and even then, you don't normally have turrets in the middle of your fucking base. Now imagine from a Terran's PoV, which I know you're not actually playing Terran full time. There's a group of DT's running around in your base, that's scary enough. Now I have to dedicate a part of my army, either a rerally or a group from my main army to go hunt it down and kill it. Now I have to go there and hope it doesn't outrun my units, cause hey, they're just as fast now, WHILE concentrating on my main army in hopes that I don't get stormed and caught out of position.

Now that I've explained that to you, you're going to probably tell me OH MAKE SOME DEPOTS THAT'LL HOLD THEM OFF LOL.

I'm still waiting on that replay.
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5356 Posts
September 23 2013 20:31 GMT
#345
On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:
On September 24 2013 04:54 rd wrote:
On September 24 2013 04:40 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
Lets face it, if they had buffed the oracle or DT is any way, people would have complained about all ins. It makes terrans have to be more careful and not just do that one or 2 openings that they always do. Or open reaper scout out where that gas is going.


The DT buff doesn't really change DT all-ins at all. The timing might have a few seconds shaved off if they weren't made with a warp prism, but the solutions are still the same. Those all-ins were busted if the opponent made the right read and had detection. It's not hard to defend two bases from cloaked units. But now they're way faster out on the map, dodging overseers/observers/scans more easily, and (might) not immediately be dead if caught with detection. Pretty much everyone harassed with the much more tankier and cheaper chargelots anyways unless you're caught with your pants down (no static detection at fringe bases). I can see the logic in this buff, though putting them back into the archives would have probably have been a better buff IMO.

The oracle change however doesn't really fix anything. The unit itself is like a Raven, except instead of having late game usefulness, it comes with the coin-flip fragility of a Banshee. And it doesn't change the fact that Robo is still just a better tech path than Stargate. This WILL be a direct buff to stargate all-ins.


So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough.


Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map.


Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol


No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react.


You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans.


And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard.

I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this.


Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty.

Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism
¯\_(シ)_/¯
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2013 20:31 GMT
#346
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.

Every. Goddamned. Time.

*sigh*


the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game

In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world.

Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up.

As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."


Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can."

No.

Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ImperialFist
Profile Joined April 2013
790 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 20:31:58
September 23 2013 20:31 GMT
#347
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.

Every. Goddamned. Time.

*sigh*


the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game

In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world.

Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up.

As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."


Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking?

Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first."

No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes.

It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses.

Gotta love him though!
"In the name of Holy Terra I challenge, Take up arms, for the Emperor’s Justice falls on you!"
Chaggi
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1936 Posts
September 23 2013 20:32 GMT
#348
On September 24 2013 05:29 Blacklizard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 04:32 freetgy wrote:
funny how ever protoss change has a thumb down, while everything else gets an up despite the other changes beeing way more critical...

i suggest, that DTs should get a speed upgrade when charge is researched similar to the passiv speed bonus Zealots get when it is researched.


I don't know if it is funny. It just seems to be the way things work - TL hates Protoss and Blizzard forums hate Terran. I remember when they were thinking about making oracles harass better... posters acted like the sky was falling because nobody had figured out how to defend back then. Now everybody(?) knows how to defend proxy oracles, and yet are still freaking out for a tiny buff. I'll never understand these attitudes.


I think people are getting angry at the oracle buff cause it's not really what the oracle needs to be successful/get more use? That's what it seems like from what I'm reading.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2013 20:32 GMT
#349
On September 24 2013 05:30 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7

Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters
.
Noooooooooooooo!

The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time.
Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything.


Oh come on falling, its a faster game and the siege tank was the only one who didn't speed up. It can fire it alittle quicker and we will all be ok.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24193 Posts
September 23 2013 20:32 GMT
#350
On September 24 2013 05:30 DinoMight wrote:
Dear David Kim,

I really hope that you or someone on your team reads this.

As a Protoss player and without any racial bias, I can tell you that Oracles are pretty much only used for cheese. This is because they kill workers INSANELY fast if they manage to sneak into a mineral line. As the enemy has more units to defend, they become less useful at killing workers. This is why people stop making them.

Oracles are really useful in the late game. Revelation is very helpful for keeping track of the enemy army. However, in any situation where revelation is useful, it's hard to imagine that 50 gas is going to break the bank. Therefore, if you want to make Oracles more useful in the late game, I would suggest buffing something that affects ONLY the late game, or something that cannot be abused in the early game.

Perhaps you could increase the Oracle's sigh range. This will allow it to find the enemy army and cast Revelation on it from a safe distance away. It will cure the most common reason for late game Oracle deaths (flying into a bunch of corruptors / Thors / Vikings) and will achieve the same goal of Saving the Protoss player some gas. But unlike a cost reduction, it will not allow the Oracle to be abused in the early game.

Regards,

DinoMight


This, plus making it a real detector. I don't know why oracle has to be such an unreliable spell-based detector, it'd break absolutely nothing to have it be a real detector.
Suikakuju
Profile Joined July 2010
Germany238 Posts
September 23 2013 20:32 GMT
#351
I honestly can´t see how this helps Zerg in struggle vs T and P. And I can tell that Zerg has a hard time right now, when I take a look at the win ratio and tournaments.

I am really sad right now even thou I don´t know how these changes turn out on public. But again meh!
Laugh and the world laughs with you. Weep and you weep alone.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
September 23 2013 20:34 GMT
#352
On September 24 2013 05:30 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7

Bio play may be more interesting with the Widow Mine change and this buff. Not only that, we believe Terran mech armies can be a lot more viable because faster attack speed naturally means Siege Tanks will be better against their hard counters
.
Noooooooooooooo!

The siege tank is losing its identity entirely. No upgrade, faster reload time. Next it will be faster set up time.
Go big or go home was the siege tank. More damage, more overkill and slow down the rate of fire if anything.


Someone in this thread was already asking for a faster set-up time.

Honestly though, sometimes you have to make sacrifices and the siege tank can still be a good unit even if it doesn't live up to our ideals for how the concept should work out. For instance, the fact they're okay to use unsieged now (compared to BW) is hardly a negative aspect of them, and it might be a necessary evil to keep suggestions for faster set-up time at bay.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
frontline-
Profile Joined March 2012
Bulgaria281 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-23 20:36:10
September 23 2013 20:34 GMT
#353
Blizzard are clueless.

This is just another panic move that only shows how inept they really are at handling things properly. These changes aren't good and the reasoning from Blizzard behind these propositions is pretty silly. Even after years they still have no idea what the major problems with the game are.
MstrJinbo
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1251 Posts
September 23 2013 20:34 GMT
#354
On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.

Every. Goddamned. Time.

*sigh*


the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game

In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world.

Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up.

As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."


Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking?

Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first."

No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes.

It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses.

Gotta love him though!


I thought it was because he was an android incapable of understanding the human emotion of balance rage
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 23 2013 20:35 GMT
#355
On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.

Every. Goddamned. Time.

*sigh*


the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game

In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world.

Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up.

As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."


Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking?

Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first."

No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes.

It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses.

Gotta love him though!


I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
September 23 2013 20:36 GMT
#356
On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:
On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.

Every. Goddamned. Time.

*sigh*


the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game

In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world.

Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up.

As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know."


Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking?

Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first."

No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes.


Time and time and time again people have proven themselves to be completely clueless about the actual consequences of changes.

Remember the hundreds of people and the dozens of pros claiming the Spore Crawler change wouldn't change ZvZ's mutafest? The people who said Fungal Growth being a projectile would do absolutely nothing? The people that said Ultralisk's flat damage change didn't matter because they were still useless?

You can "discern or intuit" plenty from patch notes. People are just fucking horrible at it.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
Zelniq
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States7166 Posts
September 23 2013 20:36 GMT
#357
First impression is I like every change so far, and the roach/DT changes in particular interest me. It's refreshing to see changes that are not specifically dealing with issues in the game, and are instead trying to open up more interesting possibilities for some maybe less useful/underused things. That being said, I'm still waiting for the overlords to move faster at lair, after you get the speed upgrade of course. As it is right now it's still too slow for dropping.

Same thing goes for a nydus improvement to make it less gimmicky. Right now the way it often functions is that you try to hope he doesn't spot your first attempt to sneak it in his base, which is often not going to happen given that it takes 20 seconds to go up, and is too easy to kill by just some workers or a couple units.
As soon as he knows you have a nydus (it's possible he saw the Network going up as well), then it feels impossible to drop it inside now that he knows and each attempt costing 100/100, can't be canceled for any refund is just too brutal of a risk. Just making it cost much less to make a worm, and make it cancel-able, would help a ton. And/or decreasing the build time from 20 to 15 seconds maybe, or an Armor increase so workers aren't so good at killing them.
ModeratorBlame yourself or God
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
September 23 2013 20:36 GMT
#358
On September 24 2013 05:32 Suikakuju wrote:
I honestly can´t see how this helps Zerg in struggle vs T and P. And I can tell that Zerg has a hard time right now, when I take a look at the win ratio and tournaments.

I am really sad right now even thou I don´t know how these changes turn out on public. But again meh!

You don't see how a 2.5 times decrease of splash area of WM would help zerg? Maybe give zerg then control of terran supply depots so they can lower them? How much more of a buff do you want? Imagine baneling splash area was decreased by a factor of 2.5...

Not to mention if I look at tournaments it doesn't look that bad.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
September 23 2013 20:36 GMT
#359
You can always ignore posters if you don't like them, it might be more effective (and healthier!) than arguing with them.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
huller20
Profile Joined August 2010
United States112 Posts
September 23 2013 20:37 GMT
#360
I am all for buffing stuff that isn't used. What is the point of having useless units/upgrades? Buff BCs too I say.

The widow mine nerf was much needed. Its absurd that it cist as much as a roach and did that much damage. Other upgrades e.g. DT seems to just make it more interesting...go for it I say.
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