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On September 24 2013 05:41 Elldar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 04:38 Grumbels wrote:On September 24 2013 04:35 RaZorwire wrote:
It's perfectly reasonable to nerf the widow mine splash radius, but the proposed change seems WAY too harsh.
Lowering the splash radius from 1.75 to 1.1 would result in the splash area decresing from ~9.62 to ~3.80, meaning the area would only be less than 40% of what it was before the nerf. I think a TL moderator should put it as a note above the thread, since otherwise everyone that passed sixth grade mathematics will feel the need to mention this.  Except that it is a 60% change since the area is 40% percent of what it used to be.
That's what he said.
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Roach burrow speed buff and DT speed buff will change the current meta, so im excited. Glad to see a tank buff as well, combined upgrades sounds silly.
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On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 04:59 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
So now, past 3-4 bases in TvP, I'm going to have DT's in my base, running around my production like invisible stimmed marines. Lovely. Like late game TvP wasn't hard enough.
Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism.
I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?"
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On September 24 2013 05:44 danbel1005 wrote:
Roach burrow speed buff and DT speed buff will change the current meta, so im excited. Glad to see a tank buff as well, combined upgrades sounds silly.
Yeah terrans need to start bringing detection when they mech.
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I like them all . make it fun blizz , let the map makers balance it .
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On September 24 2013 05:42 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? Once again, if the community, and individuals, didn't have such absolutely horrible "intuition" about patch changes they might be taken a little more seriously. As it stands, everyone is so bad at theory crafting that you might as well ignore absolutely every single one of them. Largely, yes. I feel this sentiment. It certainly wouldn't hurt to invest in a bigger balance team, and to put far more effort into actually validating and experimenting with changes based off of the perspective not of the community at large, which is of course filled with newbery, but the players who are the best at the game.
All of the podcast shows, as well interviews, shows that being pro (or a group of pros) doesn't make you an expert at balance from theorycraft either.
People give Blizzard a ton of shit constantly, but their track record with minor balance changes means I will trust their judgment more than anyone else.
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On September 24 2013 05:39 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +And/or decreasing the build time from 20 to 15 seconds maybe, or an Armor increase so workers aren't so good at killing them. No. Or in other words: Hell no. Nydus worms in their current form cannot be buffed so they are more than a gimmick. Being able to transport your entire army into the enemies main is not something that helps the game.
Which is why they could get another 'mode' of transport. A lot cheaper, perhaps free but on cooldown, which transports a limited amount of cargo space to some place on the map differently, for example popping the units instantly and making the worm pop faster.. kind of like in the campaign.
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On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:02 rd wrote:
[quote]
Or you could just have a turret up near a depot wall and watch your mini-map. Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?"
30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though.
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Mech ground and air attack upgrades combined
Seems good enough to try, it will be mostly interesting in TvT and will make an Air switch more powerful for a Meching player. TvP Mech still doesn't truly exist so it doesn't really add much there and TvZ Mech won't be affected too much with the exception of Viking damage vs Corruptors/Brood Lords should Zerg ever get them.
Widow mine splash radius decreased from 1.75 to 1.1
Seems good, TvZ is stale at the moment with 4M vs Muta/Ling/Bane.
My only worry is that the Siege Tank buff won't alleviate the fact that Mutalisks being faster and having regen allows them snipe tanks much more easily than they could in WoL.
Siege tank attack period decreased from 3 to 2.7
Long overdue Siege Tank love. Currently used almost exclusively in TvT and only for crutch defense in TvZ.
As mentioned, I'm still worried about keeping Tanks alive vs Mutas.
Oracle cost decreased from 150/150 to 150/100
Reducing the gas cost encourages early game use because early game is where gas is more much valueable.
This basically turns the Oracle into a Banshee on crack that can be in your base at around the 5 minute mark.
For it to be used midgame, I think the range needs to be modified so it can actually support an army (mostly vs Marines and Hydras) or its spells need to be reworked. The speed of the unit would have to be curbed a bit to compensate for the range though.
Dark Templar movement speed increased from 2.813 to 3.375
Why? This is giving Protoss players a safety net for failing a DT rush.
If I go Cloak Banshee and my opponent gets detection it should hurt for me, it's the basics of the game.
DT rushes utterly murder unprepared opponents and worsen the economy of the Protoss player if it fails.
Such is balance. Great risk vs great reward. Stimmed Marines and Stalkers won't even be able to catch up to them if they are detected. Big no to this unless my Banshee gets Medivac Boosters as well.
Roach speed upgrade also increases the burrowed roach movement speed from 1.41 to 2.25
Roach Burrow is indeed a rare occurence and I'm all for opening up more strategies.
I'd like to see a similar train of thought for the Oracle rather than the current proposed change.
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On September 24 2013 05:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull.
that's just so true. to this day no one believes me that TvZ marines with +1 armor are better than +1 attack against lings until i prove it to them.
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Oh my god, you're going to need to use Turbovacs to catch DTs now this is the silliest and best patch ever.
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On September 24 2013 05:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? I think WolfintheSheep handled this in a previous post, so I will keep it short. We can us intuition to determine what changes will do. We just suck at it a whole bunch and the history of pros saying "that change won't do anything" has proven this. Once again, as Adam Savage, master of testing shit that people assume is true, would say "If you don't test, you don't know."
I'm not sure how relevant "us" as the fan community is here. Of course the majority of the community is simply not equipped with the awareness or even the intellect necessary to successfully navigate the task of balancing. But it's not us who's sucking here. This is Blizzard, and David Kim - the man who's job it is to do this, who is sucking. About as badly as us. I see no reason not to call an unintuitive / incomprehensive theory toward how to result in balance for being exactly what it is. We do know things before we test, which is why we test. We only prove it with testing.
“The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." Good scientists understand and can allow this, instead of wasting away indefinitely off of the unnecessary glorification of proof - relative to the process we're a part of here, which, preceding proof, is to make sense.
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1. Rather than combining mech air and ground upgrades, they should increase the cost of level 2 and level 3 bio upgrades. Just flat-out combining them reduces mech to a supporting role for the main bio army. In TvP, terran usually gets the air attack upgrades for their Vikings, so they'd then have all the mech ground upgrades. In TvZ, terran sometimes gets mech ground upgrades just for Hellions, or so that Seige Tanks one-shot lings. It needs to be different enough so that choosing which upgrades to get is a conscious choice that is being made, and right now, bio upgrades are just too safe of a bet. Raise the cost of bio upgrades, and maybe a slight decrease to the cost of mech upgrades, but that's it!
2. This is a good idea if it were by itself, but I feel that it's not the most elegant way to nerf the "parade" style of TvZ. I think the speed of the Widow Mine Sentinel Missile projectile should be decreased, so that zerg players have more opportunity to micro against it. Furthermore, with the Seige Tank buff in the same patch, Widow Mines really shouldn't need a nerf, because the main problem is no longer balance, but design, as terran players choose Widow Mines over other factory units in the mid and late games in every single TvZ.
3. Fantastic idea. Not too big of a buff, but not so small that it won't be noticed. I still think that what Seige Tanks really need is a late game upgrade to their anti-armor damage, particularly so that they can be all the more deadly against Colossus balls with ample Stalkers from toss and mass Roach switches from zerg, especially considering the new Roach buff.
4. A much better change would be to 50/150. This maintains their role as an expensive investment in the early game, and a bit cheesy, but as the game goes on, mineral-heavy compositions can dump gas into Oracles and use them extensively in the late game. They still need an acceleration buff though.
5. This should be an upgrade, not a straight buff! Holy shit, dude! It's a really great idea, and the OneGoal mod puts it to good use, but it's important that super fast DTs only become available in the very late game, and that making them more usable is something additional that the player must invest in.
6. This is a nice buff. But it needs to be coupled with a buff to the animation speed of burrow and unburrow. Currently, Roaches take 0.55 seconds to burrow and 0.44 seconds to unburrow, +0.10 random seconds that get added on. Lower this to a flat rate of 0.15, and I guarantee you will see more Roach micro.
Overall, some truly extraordinary adventurousness on the part of the balancing team, and it has certainly reignited my faith in the Blizzard development team.
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If they really want to buff DT mobility they should give it blink but have blink disable perma-stealth for a short period of time.
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On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though.
A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage...
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On September 24 2013 05:49 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:35 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull. that's just so true. to this day no one believes me that TvZ marines with +1 armor are better than +1 attack against lings until i prove it to them.
Doesnt sond likely considering almost 100% of the bio will be shooting but not all marines will be taking damage. Unless you are talking about some test map scenario where every single marine is being hit by a ling.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Changes to mech are nice, but changes to the most interesting race in the game is pretty easy. Protoss issues are much more fundamental than DT speed and oracle gas cost, it's pretty laughable that these are even being considered.
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On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:06 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
Oh yes, my turret that's going to shoot the DT yes? So basically Terran's need to have a planetary or bunker in the production line with turrets at 3-4 bases because if the Terran decides to move out, and DT's in the base? lol No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react. You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though.
Unless the Protoss has a significant base advantage, or has been mining for a significant time (past 20 minutes unopposed) without having to recreate any high templars/colossus, then yeah, sinking 1250 gas into a DT doom drop might be pretty deadly. But again, that is just a by-product of what would require extreme inactivity from both sides in terms of engagements. Almost everyone at higher levels use zealots because minerals are usually what the Protoss can afford to throw away -- and they can actually smash a small base defense without melting.
On September 24 2013 05:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:42 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? Once again, if the community, and individuals, didn't have such absolutely horrible "intuition" about patch changes they might be taken a little more seriously. As it stands, everyone is so bad at theory crafting that you might as well ignore absolutely every single one of them. Largely, yes. I feel this sentiment. It certainly wouldn't hurt to invest in a bigger balance team, and to put far more effort into actually validating and experimenting with changes based off of the perspective not of the community at large, which is of course filled with newbery, but the players who are the best at the game. All of the podcast shows, as well interviews, shows that being pro (or a group of pros) doesn't make you an expert at balance from theorycraft either. People give Blizzard a ton of shit constantly, but their track record with minor balance changes means I will trust their judgment more than anyone else.
I'd add a footnote that specifically refers to recent minor changes, because Blizzard's initial track record with small tweaks has been fairly devastating. Ever since the queen patch when they vowed to be more conservative and let the players develop the meta game more though, they've been much better about patching.
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On September 24 2013 05:50 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:43 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? I think WolfintheSheep handled this in a previous post, so I will keep it short. We can us intuition to determine what changes will do. We just suck at it a whole bunch and the history of pros saying "that change won't do anything" has proven this. Once again, as Adam Savage, master of testing shit that people assume is true, would say "If you don't test, you don't know." I'm not sure how relevant "us" as the fan community is here. Of course the majority of the community is simply not equipped with the awareness or even the intellect necessary to successfully navigate the task of balancing. But it's not us who's sucking here. This is Blizzard, and David Kim - the man who's job it is to do this, who is sucking. About as badly as us. I see no reason not to call an unintuitive / incomprehensive theory toward how to result in balance for being exactly what it is. We do know things before we test, which is why we test. We only prove it with testing. “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." Good scientists understand and can allow this, instead of wasting away indefinitely off of the unnecessary glorification of proof - relative to the process we're a part of here, which, preceding proof, is to make sense.
Right, so what does that have to do with my comment to TT1 about his comment being useless and that testing a DT buff isn't bad? I fail to see the point of the discussion, since testing is always better than just assuming.
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From the blizzard forums:
Dayvie wrote:
FYI, these changes aren't even final for the balance test map. Seeing a lot of responses as if they're 100% decided already.
And we'd like to be more aggressive with changes on the test map compared to reality. We've tested a lot of changes in the past that never made it into the game and we believe these are important for us to learn what different changes will do.
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EPT
