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On September 24 2013 05:53 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:49 beg wrote:On September 24 2013 05:35 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull. that's just so true. to this day no one believes me that TvZ marines with +1 armor are better than +1 attack against lings until i prove it to them. Doesnt sond likely considering almost 100% of the bio will be shooting but not all marines will be taking damage. Unless you are talking about some test map scenario where every single marine is being hit by a ling.
HAHA told you no one believes it.
i tested this with ~25 marines being in a fucking corner while only 5 rines are getting attacked. armor > attack.
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On September 24 2013 05:50 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:43 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? I think WolfintheSheep handled this in a previous post, so I will keep it short. We can us intuition to determine what changes will do. We just suck at it a whole bunch and the history of pros saying "that change won't do anything" has proven this. Once again, as Adam Savage, master of testing shit that people assume is true, would say "If you don't test, you don't know." I'm not sure how relevant "us" as the fan community is here. Of course the majority of the community is simply not equipped with the awareness or even the intellect necessary to successfully navigate the task of balancing. But it's not us who's sucking here. This is Blizzard, and David Kim - the man who's job it is to do this, who is sucking. About as badly as us. I see no reason not to call an unintuitive / incomprehensive theory toward how to result in balance for being exactly what it is. We do know things before we test, which is why we test. We only prove it with testing. “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." Good scientists understand and can allow this, instead of wasting away indefinitely off of the unnecessary glorification of proof - relative to the process we're a part of here, which, preceding proof, is to make sense.
The problem is that you think the changes suck because you believe the changes will be absolutely horrible.
And, as I said above, the theorycrafting powers of this community are horrendously bad, and David Kim (and the balance team) have proven to have a better understanding of changes than any individual on this forum.
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On September 24 2013 05:37 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:30 DinoMight wrote:
Dear David Kim,
I really hope that you or someone on your team reads this.
As a Protoss player and without any racial bias, I can tell you that Oracles are pretty much only used for cheese. This is because they kill workers INSANELY fast if they manage to sneak into a mineral line. As the enemy has more units to defend, they become less useful at killing workers. This is why people stop making them.
Oracles are really useful in the late game. Revelation is very helpful for keeping track of the enemy army. However, in any situation where revelation is useful, it's hard to imagine that 50 gas is going to break the bank. Therefore, if you want to make Oracles more useful in the late game, I would suggest buffing something that affects ONLY the late game, or something that cannot be abused in the early game.
Perhaps you could increase the Oracle's sigh range. This will allow it to find the enemy army and cast Revelation on it from a safe distance away. It will cure the most common reason for late game Oracle deaths (flying into a bunch of corruptors / Thors / Vikings) and will achieve the same goal of Saving the Protoss player some gas. But unlike a cost reduction, it will not allow the Oracle to be abused in the early game.
Regards,
DinoMight great approach. really appreciate what you wrote  on the other hand... dont you think that players will just keep using observers for keeping track of the opponent's army? i think oracle needs a complete rework to be a viable non-cheese unit.
Late game PvT observers become unusable. Terran has a lot of excess scans and since they're making Vikings anyway, your observers die really quickly. I remember watching a game recently where the Protoss had lost 29 observers or so in 30 minutes.
Protoss needs a more reliable way to keep track of ghosts as the game continues since EMP is AoE and Feedback is single use, and Protoss can't do anything about scans while Terran can snipe obs. If the Terran's control is really good (and I mean REALLY REALLY good) he can in theory deny all detection.
Maybe make it so that revelation doesn't itself grant detection, but if you reveal something cloaked, it stays revealed??? Currently if you have an obs and you can see a ghost and then you cast revelation, you lose vision of the ghost when your observer dies.
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On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:
[quote]
No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react.
You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage...
Um what? It's not uncommon for both players to start getting a bit of a bank in late game TvP where one bad engagement can end the game, and certainly 1250/1250 and the infrastructure of 10 gateways isn't an unrealistic bank. The infrastructure of 10 starports at 150/100 a piece, a fusion core, and 10 400/300 battlecruiser is quite a bit more and a horrible comparison. 10 Ghosts would be a better comparison, which we dont see because it's safer to remake the faster producing marine / mauraders against the frontloaded production of warp gates.
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On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:
[quote]
No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react.
You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage...
How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that.
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On September 24 2013 05:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:42 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? Once again, if the community, and individuals, didn't have such absolutely horrible "intuition" about patch changes they might be taken a little more seriously. As it stands, everyone is so bad at theory crafting that you might as well ignore absolutely every single one of them. Largely, yes. I feel this sentiment. It certainly wouldn't hurt to invest in a bigger balance team, and to put far more effort into actually validating and experimenting with changes based off of the perspective not of the community at large, which is of course filled with newbery, but the players who are the best at the game. All of the podcast shows, as well interviews, shows that being pro (or a group of pros) doesn't make you an expert at balance from theorycraft either. People give Blizzard a ton of shit constantly, but their track record with minor balance changes means I will trust their judgment more than anyone else.
I'm not saying that it does, but it is obviously a good place to begin, and if you had to pick a better or worse player to do the job, you're going withi the better player - and for a perfectly good reason. Indeed, many pros are utterly incompetent when it comes to balance considerations. But this does n ot lend itself to marginalizing all professional player opinions or knowledge to being equivalent to the community at large. Hardly. I don't even see the reason to put them under Blizzard. I see many excellent, intensely comprehensive suggestions being put forth by top players left and right. Can't say the same for Blizzard. Are we really giving credit to the "balance team" just because of their title, despite the obvious contrast in expertise between this level of buffoonery versus the awesome understanding of many pros who are capable, just as anyone is, of not ruining the exploration of balance by having racial biases, or of simply being incapable of thinking about things just as adequately?
If you want to do some justice to science, then let's start calling things for how they are, instead of turning in too soon so that we can marginalize the entirety of the community as well as Blizzard in to one big uninformed mass of idiocy. When you do this, you completely neglect the presence and possibility for expertise. This whole mood of "everyones terrible and so by default based on arbitration x we should just give Blizzard all the respect in the world and deny our own perceptions." is .. confounding.
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On September 24 2013 05:53 Fjodorov wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:49 beg wrote:On September 24 2013 05:35 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull. that's just so true. to this day no one believes me that TvZ marines with +1 armor are better than +1 attack against lings until i prove it to them. Doesnt sond likely considering almost 100% of the bio will be shooting but not all marines will be taking damage. Unless you are talking about some test map scenario where every single marine is being hit by a ling.
More like, "and then you just crank out 10 more ghosts" but its on the right track. I don't know what crazy world where people are warping in 10 dts.
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On September 24 2013 05:47 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:39 Sissors wrote:And/or decreasing the build time from 20 to 15 seconds maybe, or an Armor increase so workers aren't so good at killing them. No. Or in other words: Hell no. Nydus worms in their current form cannot be buffed so they are more than a gimmick. Being able to transport your entire army into the enemies main is not something that helps the game. Which is why they could get another 'mode' of transport. A lot cheaper, perhaps free but on cooldown, which transports a limited amount of cargo space to some place on the map differently, for example popping the units instantly and making the worm pop faster.. kind of like in the campaign.
Oh what that I agree, but that is more something for an expansion (like what blizzard announced for HotS).
Personally I can imagine a faster one like you say which transports limitted amount of units. Or a slower one, which however is stronger once established and is faster (that would be used for defensive purposes, although the issue remains the zerg army is so freaking fast it generally simply isn't worth it to bother with nydus worms).
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On September 24 2013 05:54 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:53 Fjodorov wrote:On September 24 2013 05:49 beg wrote:On September 24 2013 05:35 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull. that's just so true. to this day no one believes me that TvZ marines with +1 armor are better than +1 attack against lings until i prove it to them. Doesnt sond likely considering almost 100% of the bio will be shooting but not all marines will be taking damage. Unless you are talking about some test map scenario where every single marine is being hit by a ling. HAHA told you no one believes it. i tested this with ~25 marines being in a fucking corner while only 5 rines are getting attacked. armor > attack.
Medivacs
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Oracle change sounds promising. A good harass and scouting tool that is still a glass cannon, but now Protoss can potentially transition into a more standard army composition after going oracle. I see this being good late game because everything Protoss is so gas heavy, it will be easier to get the oracle out to tag army's for the tempest and such without having to sacrifice as many other tech units, which lets be honest, is 90 percent of the Protoss army.
The other changes sound like it would make the game more interesting and fun. Lets make it happen.
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On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that.
Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time?
And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin.
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On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 rd wrote:
[quote]
No, the turret thats gonna show you the red blip on the mini-map so you can raise your depots, re-rally appropriately, and if you aren't way out of position, walk over with your army and clean-up. Cause TBH if you can't do that, the buffed DT could also be chargelots and it would make 0 difference if you can't react.
You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage...
Only difference is that it would take the Terran about 7-8 minutes to get those 10 BC´s out (First a Fusion Core, then a healthy count of Starpots with tech-labs and then most likely 3 rounds of BC production), while Protoss can just warp-in with their awesome 15 warpgates available instantly.
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On September 24 2013 05:57 Woizit wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:54 beg wrote:On September 24 2013 05:53 Fjodorov wrote:On September 24 2013 05:49 beg wrote:On September 24 2013 05:35 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 ImperialFist wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ No, nobody needs to explain what testing means. Thanks for asking? Anyway, you're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no matter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can, why try to make sense first." No. There isn't a single good reason for us to stop perceiving what we are and that which is plain to see for a great many people here - there is some serious incompetence going on with the balance team. And it's not a secret. It's not like something we're just finding out. This just happens to be a particularly astonishingly absurd array of potential changes. It's Plansix, condescending is his specialty! He clearly sees himself as a prophet sent to TL to illuminate the masses. Gotta love him though! I respond to kinda shitty arguments with being condescending. It a pretty good way to respond in my personal experience. The idea that people shouldn't test ideas out is just plan stupid to me. Even if they are crazy, I would rather try and have everyone know the results than assume we know how it would effect the game. I am all about shit being over powered, rather than boring, slow and dull. that's just so true. to this day no one believes me that TvZ marines with +1 armor are better than +1 attack against lings until i prove it to them. Doesnt sond likely considering almost 100% of the bio will be shooting but not all marines will be taking damage. Unless you are talking about some test map scenario where every single marine is being hit by a ling. HAHA told you no one believes it. i tested this with ~25 marines being in a fucking corner while only 5 rines are getting attacked. armor > attack. Medivacs
i had this argument with a friend after a game by bomber. he did an early rine attack with combat shield and +1 attack and i told my friend that this was a mistake.
sooo yea, my argument is obviously situational. you could also have said "battlecruisers!". 
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On September 24 2013 05:57 NET wrote:
Oracle change sounds promising. A good harass and scouting tool that is still a glass cannon, but now Protoss can potentially transition into a more standard army composition after going oracle. I see this being good late game because everything Protoss is so gas heavy, it will be easier to get the oracle out to tag army's for the tempest and such without having to sacrifice as many other tech units, which lets be honest, is 90 percent of the Protoss army.
The other changes sound like it would make the game more interesting and fun. Lets make it happen.
Except that... You can already transition from oracle harass into really gas heavy things like double forge templars or phoenix colossi, and lategame oracles serve no purpose warp prisms and observers don't fulfill more cost-effectively. It's just going to make early game oracles all-in stronger, and I guess this is not what you desire ?
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DT Change : why not, but add a need for upgrade because early its way too op !
Mine change : too much i think. Will zerg still micro during fight ? Not so sure
Tank change : pretty good i guess. 10% buff is a nice change. Lets see if its enough.
Roach change : YEAY !
Orcale change : mmmh well... no. Sight buff would be way better.
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On September 24 2013 05:54 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:50 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:43 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? I think WolfintheSheep handled this in a previous post, so I will keep it short. We can us intuition to determine what changes will do. We just suck at it a whole bunch and the history of pros saying "that change won't do anything" has proven this. Once again, as Adam Savage, master of testing shit that people assume is true, would say "If you don't test, you don't know." I'm not sure how relevant "us" as the fan community is here. Of course the majority of the community is simply not equipped with the awareness or even the intellect necessary to successfully navigate the task of balancing. But it's not us who's sucking here. This is Blizzard, and David Kim - the man who's job it is to do this, who is sucking. About as badly as us. I see no reason not to call an unintuitive / incomprehensive theory toward how to result in balance for being exactly what it is. We do know things before we test, which is why we test. We only prove it with testing. “The intuitive mind is a sacred gift and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant and has forgotten the gift." Good scientists understand and can allow this, instead of wasting away indefinitely off of the unnecessary glorification of proof - relative to the process we're a part of here, which, preceding proof, is to make sense. The problem is that you think the changes suck because you believe the changes will be absolutely horrible. And, as I said above, the theorycrafting powers of this community are horrendously bad, and David Kim (and the balance team) have proven to have a better understanding of changes than any individual on this forum.
We are so bad at it. I am sure if I searched now I could find all sorts of quotes about the infestor buff or queen buff not doing a lot. Or people saying the zerg teir 3 was terrible(back in the day went roach/hydra/corruptor was a thing and they just used to rub up against force fields until they died).
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On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:
[quote]
And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin.
not sure what you guys are talking about tbh but 10 DTs arent that crazy. Ive seen tons of pro games played to the very late game and both players have every tech and upgrade and 5-6k gas and minerals. Didnt you see jaedong make 50 mutas? ;P The thing is that destroying a few buildings at that stage of the game isnt a big deal so I agree that its not an issue.
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On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:
[quote]
And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin.
Ten DTs would have do SO much damage to make it worth it. Seriously, the terran could kill that with his whole army and it would be like wiping out several colossi in cost.
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On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:
[quote]
And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin.
check every TvP with hasobs, he'll make 4 collosi at the same time, warp in 14 HT and 12 DTs and 15 zealots to insta remax behind 64 cannons
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On September 24 2013 05:54 Lumi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:47 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 24 2013 05:42 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:41 WolfintheSheep wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:23 Lumi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:15 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:09 TT1 wrote:On September 24 2013 05:08 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
I love this community...every time we do this balance testing map thing people always gloss right over the word "testing" and act like all these changes are coming out tomorrow.
Every. Goddamned. Time.
*sigh* the issue is the fact that they would even consider these protoss changes, shows a lack of knowledge in regards to the game In the opinion of TT1, balance master of the world. Seriously, do we need to explain what testing is? You test thing, even if they are crazy. If they were going to test medivacs picking up sieged tanks, I would be all about it, even it if would be totally messed up. As Adam Savage would say "Until you test, you don't know." Not sure why you're compelled to take a condescending tone in this conversation =\ You're basically saying that there is nothing we can discern or intuit well enough about the game, and that we can try out anything, no ma tter how crazy or readily apparent as being stupid it is. Sorry, but that's a terrible and blatantly inefficient and unintuitive approach to balancing. We only get so many changes offered to us - there are tons, and tons, and tons of awesome ones out there that they could be working with. Instead, we get the obviously bad crap. And then you rush in to be a dick to TT1 and say "what's the problem man this is how things should be we just do whatever cuz we can." No. Please, its the standard "The fact that Blizzard is even thinking about it proves they have no idea." Testing is good, assuming is bad. Are you just not interested in acknowledging the role of intuition in our lives or something? You're acting like before testing, we can't actually know something. Like oh we should all hush hush and wait until the theory of gravity is re-affirmed for us all. We know how this game works and what the suggested changes mean. That's how you come up with these ideas to begin with - off of some basis of intuition. The problem is that some of these ideas are clearly born out of ignorance. Do you think Blizzard actually knows best? They're the last ones to the party, always. What's worse is that even the spirit of testing itself, better testing of ideas that actually have merit and relevance simply doesn't happen. Instead we're getting obviously ill-informed / ham-handed suggestions. We're not having "Test alllllllllllllll the changes out" party in our scene. We've been handed some garbage, and we don't need to test it have (well there won't actually ever be any) empirical proof in order to figure this out and have convictions about it. People do know things before they are tested. How do you think we come up with the notion to test things to begin with? Once again, if the community, and individuals, didn't have such absolutely horrible "intuition" about patch changes they might be taken a little more seriously. As it stands, everyone is so bad at theory crafting that you might as well ignore absolutely every single one of them. Largely, yes. I feel this sentiment. It certainly wouldn't hurt to invest in a bigger balance team, and to put far more effort into actually validating and experimenting with changes based off of the perspective not of the community at large, which is of course filled with newbery, but the players who are the best at the game. All of the podcast shows, as well interviews, shows that being pro (or a group of pros) doesn't make you an expert at balance from theorycraft either. People give Blizzard a ton of shit constantly, but their track record with minor balance changes means I will trust their judgment more than anyone else. I'm not saying that it does, but it is obviously a good place to begin, and if you had to pick a better or worse player to do the job, you're going withi the better player - and for a perfectly good reason. Indeed, many pros are utterly incompetent when it comes to balance considerations. But this does n ot lend itself to marginalizing all professional player opinions or knowledge to being equivalent to the community at large. Hardly. I don't even see the reason to put them under Blizzard. I see many excellent, intensely comprehensive suggestions being put forth by top players left and right. Can't say the same for Blizzard. Are we really giving credit to the "balance team" just because of their title, despite the obvious contrast in expertise between this level of buffoonery versus the awesome understanding of many pros who are capable, just as anyone is, of not ruining the exploration of balance by having racial biases, or of simply being incapable of thinking about things just as adequately? If you want to do some justice to science, then let's start calling things for how they are, instead of turning in too soon so that we can marginalize the entirety of the community as well as Blizzard in to one big uninformed mass of idiocy. When you do this, you completely neglect the presence and possibility for expertise. This whole mood of "everyones terrible and so by default based on arbitration x we should just give Blizzard all the respect in the world and deny our own perceptions." is .. confounding.
Calling theory-crafting "science" is a joke. The community, and the pro's, theory-crafting is based solely on opinion. Blizzard's is at least based on some collective data.
The only expertise that's worth considering are people who extensively play the test maps and actually try to the changes, and even then that's only barely indicative of what hundreds of pros will do in the tournament scene.
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