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On September 24 2013 06:03 ImperialFist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin. check every TvP with hasobs, he'll make 4 collosi at the same time, warp in 14 HT and 12 DTs and 15 zealots to insta remax behind 64 cannons
At what game time, how many bases, and how long was he maxed for without a fight? Lol.
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On September 24 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin. Ten DTs would have do SO much damage to make it worth it. Seriously, the terran could kill that with his whole army and it would be like wiping out several colossi in cost.
Ergo why I said after and engagement, when the dts would just be picking off units as they come out of the barracks and there isn't a significant 'Main Army'. Not to mention the damage that many DTs could do to infrastructure.
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I'm not sure why they have community polls, as if the average player would know better :/ Actually, I assume that the polls are really only there for the OP, and blizzard could just be implementing the test maps anyway(?)
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On September 24 2013 06:03 ImperialFist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin. check every TvP with hasobs, he'll make 4 collosi at the same time, warp in 14 HT and 12 DTs and 15 zealots to insta remax behind 64 cannons
That doesn't even sound like a real game of TvP. That sounds like someone fucking around on stream because he can.
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On September 24 2013 05:58 Viserion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:20 Chaggi wrote:On September 24 2013 05:17 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:12 Chaggi wrote:
[quote]
You don't seem to understand that TvP from the Terran side is poking at the Protoss until a favorable engagement happens and that takes a lot of poking and proding around. A DT running around the production line means a rerally, or at 200/200 to break off a small group of units. Now, these DT's are running around at the speed of a stimmed marine with detection maybe scattered around. Sorry but if I raise my depot wall, they're gonna break through that in 5 seconds. It's not the fact that DT's can be in the production line, it's the fact that they're gonna be so much harder to handle while TvP late game is already a problem for the vast majority of Terrans. And what you don't understand is that I also play Terran, I don't need your perspective, and that if you can't deal with a DT because you leave nothing back to deal with run-by's, then chargelots are going to fuck up your world equally as hard. I don't really believe that you play Terran. Please give me a replay of you in late game TvP leaving units back preemptively to deal with chargelots/DT's in your production line. I'd like to see this. Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... Only difference is that it would take the Terran about 7-8 minutes to get those 10 BC´s out (First a Fusion Core, then a healthy count of Starpots with tech-labs and then most likely 3 rounds of BC production), while Protoss can just warp-in with their awesome 15 warpgates available instantly.
The point is that they are equally ridiculous ideas. Just like a bunch of BC's aren't suddenly going to appear from nowhere and win the game, neither will 10 DTs magically appear in an even game and then win the game for the toss. It just isn't going to happen. If it was a viable strat people would do this already regardless of the speed buff which probably won't even make it into the game... because there is no way that speed buff will suddenly make "warp in 10 DT" an instawin if it was not before.
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What's with all the unnecessary Protoss hate? Its the weakest race right now so it needs a buff.
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On September 24 2013 05:51 Iodem wrote:
If they really want to buff DT mobility they should give it blink but have blink disable perma-stealth for a short period of time.
This is a cool idea. Would be fun to watch blink stalkers hunt down blink DTs in PvP. Stim MMM chasing after that elusive Dark Templar. Dodging a fungal growth in PvZ but then dying to speedlings because cloak is not available.
Give them blink when you upgrade stalker blink I think would probably be the best tech path for it. Just having fun with the idea 
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On September 24 2013 06:05 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:
[quote]
Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin. Ten DTs would have do SO much damage to make it worth it. Seriously, the terran could kill that with his whole army and it would be like wiping out several colossi in cost. Ergo why I said after and engagement, when the dts would just be picking off units as they come out of the barracks and there isn't a significant 'Main Army'. Not to mention the damage that many DTs could do to infrastructure.
The gas would be better spent on more colossi or HTs. Zealots can do everything those DTs can do for cheaper.
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On September 24 2013 06:08 ladysman09 wrote:
What's with all the unnecessary Protoss hate? Its the weakest race right now so it needs a buff.
I think the problem is these buffs do nothing to fix the problems that make protoss the weakest and most frustrating (which is what makes people rage at p) race: overreliance on gimmicks such as coinflip oracles or semi coinflip DT's, or OP, unmicroable and boring colossi that force other units to be too weak.
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The DT buff terrifies me. It's not making the unit any better against prepared opponents, its only helping achieve easier coin flip wins against opponents with limited or no detection. Aside from that I'm willing to test this stuff out, this game needs a wrench thrown into it to stir things up a bit.
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Wow! Brilliant suggestions! Love the Terran and Zerg buffs! Protoss is just so hated that I can't even think of a change that wouldn't make them feel more "Cheesy and annoying" to most folks :p
Maybe it's just time to accept it and just welcome changes to Protoss as well even if they feel frustrating
HOW-FFING-EVER! Where is my goddamn Nydus buff!!! Decrease canal cost. Easiest changes ever to make. Been suggested so many time by pros n noobs. We want to see it moaar!
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All changes are perfect apart from DT speed and Oracle. If these unitw were buffed, it would be so hard to counter protoss allins.
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kinda sceptical about some of these changes, basically the same concerns that have been discussed extensively in this thread, but overall i like the approach, at least for some of them. testmap should be interesting at least.
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On September 24 2013 06:12 Cereb wrote:Wow! Brilliant suggestions! Love the Terran and Zerg buffs! Protoss is just so hated that I can't even think of a change that wouldn't make them feel more "Cheesy and annoying" to most folks :p Maybe it's just time to accept it and just welcome changes to Protoss as well even if they feel frustrating HOW-FFING-EVER! Where is my goddamn Nydus buff!!! Decrease canal cost. Easiest changes ever to make. Been suggested so many time by pros n noobs. We want to see it moaar!
I actually think increasing the canal cost and decreasing worm cost would be a better idea imo
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On September 24 2013 06:05 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 06:03 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:58 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:54 Sissors wrote:On September 24 2013 05:51 H0i wrote:On September 24 2013 05:48 Pursuit_ wrote:On September 24 2013 05:45 Plansix wrote:On September 24 2013 05:39 rd wrote:On September 24 2013 05:31 Whatson wrote:On September 24 2013 05:25 rd wrote:
[quote]
Map awareness/control is pretty important. Turns out chargelots and dt's don't magically warp-in and teleport to your mineral line (your main base mineral line, apparently), they have to travel there first, i.e., you can react. Blizzard can't be balancing for incompetence because you can't be fucked to wall off your natural and manage your production rallies. Don't speak on behalf of Terrans in the first person unless you're one of several notable Korean pros, ty. Lol please, you're Protoss you can warp in 30 units at a time as long as you have a warp prism If a protoss is allowed to mine and bank the necessary minerals to make 30 gateways, and then consistently warp 60 supply of units more than once from them, your problem extends beyond just the warp prism. I love the "you can warp in 30 zealots with a WP" when it comes to protoss balance. All I can think is "How would I fit all of those in the tiny warp prism power field? And why do I have 60 less supply and 3000 minerals?" 30 units is definitely an exaggeration, but ~10 is pretty realistic. After a fight which ends pretty nuetrally a 10dt warp in into the main might actually be game ending if they move as fast as stimmed marines now that I think about it. Doesn't seem like something that would come up often though. A 10 DT warp in ?!?!?!?! Are you insane? How would that ever happen? It's like saying a terran should just quickly produce 10 BC's after a fight to get an advantage... How is a 10 DT warp in special? Only in general a combination of zealots and DTs are preferred, but late game a toss should be able to afford that. Show me one game where 10 DTs were warped in at the same time? And seriously, it's not that hard to stop. A major problem, sure. You'll need to pull back your army... but it's not like it's some instawin. Ten DTs would have do SO much damage to make it worth it. Seriously, the terran could kill that with his whole army and it would be like wiping out several colossi in cost. Ergo why I said after and engagement, when the dts would just be picking off units as they come out of the barracks and there isn't a significant 'Main Army'. Not to mention the damage that many DTs could do to infrastructure.
If this were remotely an issue, it would be happening already. 10 DTs camping your production line don't need speed to outrun scans. They just kill everything.
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DT speed is definitely a bad idea, oracle cost decrease is definitely a bad idea. Roach burrow move speed could be cool, anything that makes siege tanks better is golden in my book, widow mine radius decrease isn't necessarily a bad thing but 1.75 to 1.1 is more than likely an over-nerf.
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I think I know how we can bring Carriers / Battle Cruisers / Brood Lords back in game.
We increase their movement speed.
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On September 24 2013 06:20 ReMinD_ wrote:
I think I know how we can bring Carriers / Battle Cruisers / Brood Lords back in game.
We increase their movement speed.
Ha ha ha ha You're quite mean to David Kim, but you made me laugh.
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anything for less wms. although it seems a little steep.
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DTs and Oracles do not need buffs at all. They are already very strong options for Protoss in terms of harass. I'm not sure that the siege tank rate of fire change will be enough to compensate for the massive widow mine nerf. Hopefully those are place holder numbers that only represent the type of change DKim wants. I really like the mech upgrade buff. If they want to nerf widow mines that badly, I'd say reduce the cost of mine substantially (25-50 mins 10-25 gas) and make them suicide like spider mines.
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EPT
