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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 23 2013 01:33 Shinokuki wrote:
Oh geesh the comments here want to make me laugh
Sc2 is by far easier game than bw and that is why its difficult for top players to even remain for long time. The game simply has no other skills like macroing( i mean going back to your base to spam z z z z z into your gateways while you fight and rally your workers), or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a ing micro constantly, or having to multitAsk while doing all that. Bw simply was much harder. The lack of those skills and possibly more don't allow sc2 players to be really distinguished from each other. There's a reason why bw legends were able toget 4+ awards constantly and dominating even b/a level players who are also really good.
Yeah, the consistency of BW really is the reason why no OSL Champion ever fell out of the first round the next OSL
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On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
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On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone. Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
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On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Show nested quote +Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
The fact its mechanically easy puts more emphasis on other things to distinguish the winners such as your builds meaning if you pick the wrong ones or get too predictable as flash admits he does then you end up losing more then other players.
Its impossible to question flash mechanics too much history to just dismiss that, but his builds and play style are more open to criticism
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On September 23 2013 01:40 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:33 Shinokuki wrote:
Oh geesh the comments here want to make me laugh
Sc2 is by far easier game than bw and that is why its difficult for top players to even remain for long time. The game simply has no other skills like macroing( i mean going back to your base to spam z z z z z into your gateways while you fight and rally your workers), or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a ing micro constantly, or having to multitAsk while doing all that. Bw simply was much harder. The lack of those skills and possibly more don't allow sc2 players to be really distinguished from each other. There's a reason why bw legends were able toget 4+ awards constantly and dominating even b/a level players who are also really good. Yeah, the consistency of BW really is the reason why no OSL Champion ever fell out of the first round the next OSL
Yeah I always thought this was true even from the beginning they are just different games hard to compare. The slower pace of BW was a big part of allowing micro and battles to make more a difference.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone. Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks? Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
Sure, clicky.
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maybe not so much skill ceiling as BW was a concave curve and SC2 a convex in terms of difficulty.
so in a sense the skill ceiling is equally unreachable, but the 'wall' and sweet spot placements are harder to reach in bw
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I seriously can't comprehend why anyone should be upset at Flash's statement..
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On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone. Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone. Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks? Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS Sure, clicky.
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
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On September 23 2013 01:23 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:22 purakushi wrote:
Basically, he just means that the skillcap is lower. By saying the game is easier, he is not implying that he should dominate. Since it is so easy, there are less things a player can do to differentiate themselves from the rest. The skillcap talk is meaningless - there is no "cap" that a human being can reach as it would require you to do everything perfectly. It's just not possible and never will be. Besides, I think what he's saying is that it's easier to reach a decent level mechanically speaking, not easier to play at the top level.
I am not speaking on those terms. There are just so many things that humans can not do perfectly within BW and in SC2. That does not matter. What matters is what humans are capable of. Korean pros are already playing at the best the game can be played at. Due to the nature of the game, no one can be consistent. Sure, they can be consistently near the top, but there will never be a dominating players like there were in BW, where players have considerably more avenues of outplaying their opponents. (Note: I am only listing BW just as an example.)
Understandably, SC2 is a different game, but more often than not, one wrong move, you can just die. The game is very punishing. While a very punishing game can be exciting and whatnot, if you factor in how well players can play across several years to just how easy it is to lose a game, that is an intrinsic cap on how well a player can play.
Basically, in the highest of the high tiers of SC2, there will never be true consistency, just because SC2 involves a lot more gambling, absolute build order losses, and AI playing for you (i.e. less avenues of player skill versus player skill).
I respect all of the greatest SC2 players, but I always cringe when people bring up the "B" word in SC2.
Not even close.
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I think Flash hit the nail on the head when he said that he was confused why fans are being so negative. SC2 is dying is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I for one don't buy into it, especially since a new generation of progamer has emerged.
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On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone. Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks? Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
This has to be a troll, 68% is pretty much exactly Mvp's winrate for all 3 years.
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Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Specifically when opponents all in, don’t panic. Once you panic, you will lose. I also try to be calm but sometimes I still can’t do it.
starcraft 2 in a nutshell
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I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
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On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote:
I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
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On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well. If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Because it's easier for everyone. Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks? Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS Sure, clicky.
Playing a bunch of tournaments with foreigners in them doesn't compare to the Brood War records that were created playing only other players and in events from KeSPA, the most serious and professional eSports organization on the planet.
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On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote:
I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Back in wol early-mid yes terran did, I would agree that now especially in hots their diversity is pretty limited. Protoss is now the race that has many, many builds compared to zerg or terran.
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On September 23 2013 02:11 purakushi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote:
I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations. Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
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On September 23 2013 02:11 purakushi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote:
I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations. Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
TvP Mech unplayable
TvZ mech not really viable (viper say hello)
TvT mech is viable. widow mines counter battlecruisers wtf....
TvP : what should be better than cc first in TvP? don't forget MSC decline the most/all early agression. at his skil level.
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EPT
