Flash's Interview about Dreamhack, retirement wave, and SC2's current predicament
This translated interview is a shortened version of the Inven's interview about Flash.
As always, it is important to note about the things that lost during the two translation processes.
Q: How did you spend your Chuseok (Korean festival)?
Flash: Although it is vocation, I spent my time practicing and only rest at the weekend. Before Dreamhack, I mainly practiced for Dreamhack.
Q: In order to go into Global Finals, you must have good result in Season 3.
Flash: First, I must get to Ro4. Also, I need to perform well in the season finals and achieve a huge comeback. This season’s goal is Ro4 and I will climb up step by step.
Q: Jaedong is very active in the Season Finals. As your old enemy, you must feel something.
Flash: I am happy for Jaedong’s success. That’s also a motivation for me. Both Jaedong and I have a long way to go. So we will work hard and fight to come back to our prime time.
Q: Is participating in both foreign and domestic tournaments difficult for you?
Flash: There is no much difference. Surprisingly, my foreign tournaments’ results are very good, except this Dreamhack. Although my result was not good in this Dreamhack, I will make foreign tournaments my main focus.
Q: What should be improved?
Flash: My strategies are not diverse enough. So I was often specifically countered by my opponents. Terran is a race with limited diversity, and my strategic diversity is even more limited. I have to change this. Many people have pointed out this weakness.
Q: Your old competitors have retired one by one. How do you feel?
Flash: I knew long ago that the older brothers (meaning: the older players) will retire. We sometimes have some drinks, so I know beforehand. I feel very pity. They are supposed to be the hardworking players. However, because of the falling size of the fans and SC2’s current situation, they can’t hang on anymore.
Progamer is a tough profession. The older brothers practiced 12 hours a day. This life is tiring and dull. Everyone is wondering how will things turn out after playing for one more year. And many people in the starcraft scene are constantly saying that the current situation is grim. I have no idea why they keep emphasizing on this sentence constantly.
Players are the ones who know the scene the most, right? When people around you are talking about the negativity all the time, players will feel ashamed. Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? But even so, telling negativity to the hardworking players will only increase their hardship. There are no players who don’t know about the deteriorating situation, but keeping listening to these will certainly make players exhausted and powerless.
Q: Is SC2’s fall regretful to those very active players?
Flash: Certainly you can’t see the future of next year and the years after that. This is the reality. Based on the standpoint of KeSPA, they can develop other programs. But in the standpoint of players, they will think “I have already achieved this kind of results but my salary will still be cut next year.” So some players do not want to work under KeSPA anymore. Innovation’s transfer is certainly not unrelated to this reason. In foreign teams, you can play for tournaments freely.
Q: Do you worry about your future?
Flash: I do not have such concern. I feel like I can do anything, so I don’t feel worried. I will worry when I join the army. I have a lot of things to do. I want to go to school and also do some business.
Q: Many people are starting to play SC2 recently. What’s your advice?
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Specifically when your opponent all-ins, do not panic. Once you panic, you will lose. I also try to be calm but sometimes I still can’t do it.
Q: Are you satisfied with your current place?
Flash: I have satisfied long ago. I am working hard regardless of where I am. Many people have high hope for me. I don’t know if it is because SC2’s current difficulties, I am very satisfied now if I can achieve good results.
I have played this game for so long after all. It is impossible to not have a sense of mission to this game. If you don’t have it, then it is a lack of responsibility. I have a sense of responsibility of all of my games. Anyway, I need to show good results first.
Q: Have you thought about what you will be like after 10 years?
Flash: I may be a coach, or may be doing things outside esports. I am the person who don’t want to work under people, so my job is probably the type where I can have control.
Nice interview. It really reveals a lot about Flash's hard working mindset and how he was able to achieve so much success in Brood War. I'm hoping he can do the same in SC2!
Players are the ones who know the scene most, right? When people around you are talking about the negativity all the time, players will feel ashamed. Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? But even so, telling negativity to the hardworking players will only increase their hardship. There are no players who don’t know about the deteriorating situation, but keeping listening to these will certainly make players exhausted and powerless.
It's me or is he meaning that all this doom and gloom is indeed self-fullfilling prophecy?
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because SC2 is mechanically easier and other things matter more than pure mechanics (outside of TvZ lol). Bomber's clever pick of builds when he is on fire for example. Or TaeJa's overall greatness.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Did you read the interview in order? Because he clearly pointed out the reason he's losing games and recognizes what he needs to fix... Of course, stating it is one thing. Being able to do it is another. I think he was simply talking about basic army commands/UI which if you have ever seen BW is an incredibly acceptable comparison regardless of what your opinion on either game is.
I'm glad we got an interview out of Flash though. I'd be really happy to see him and Jaedong in the finals but I'm getting the feeling he's going to have a really tough time making the cut
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Ice cold, damn.
Yep, that's the point though. They wanted it to be this way.
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Ice cold, damn.
Yep, that's the point though. They wanted it to be this way.
You mean the translator wanted it to sound that way?
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Ice cold, damn.
Yep, that's the point though. They wanted it to be this way.
You mean the translator wanted it to sound that way?
Do not read too much into the wording. He means the game is easier than SC1 and that's it.
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Ice cold, damn.
Not really...did you even read the question that was asked? It's directed at people who just started the game, and it's absolutely true...if other RTS felt absolutely overwhelming when you first started, then SC2's entry barrier will feel a lot lower.
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: I am the person who don’t want to work under people, so my job is probably the type where I can have control.
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Ice cold, damn.
Not really...did you even read the question that was asked? It's directed at people who just started the game, and it's absolutely true...if other RTS felt absolutely overwhelming when you first started, then SC2's entry barrier will feel a lot lower.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Read the question he was asked: "Many people are starting to play...". i.e. players not trying to be pro, but trying to get better. SC2 is much more forgiving for entry level players in SC2 than BW. The reasons why are pretty obvious.
I actually think for a new player BW is easier to get into.
What I mean by that is that due to how UMS and team games were in BW, a lot more casual players could have a blast just playing with their friends, yet still got "into" the game and built up some appreciation for the professional play, even if it's on the most basic level (that's how BW/eSports in Korea worked, and still does, just with other games). In SC2 it's not that inviting and you feel more lonely, which makes it harder again for a complete newb to get into it.
I know of course that the question was aimed at 1v1 ladder, but still.
Players are the ones who know the scene the most, right? When people around you are talking about the negativity all the time, players will feel ashamed. Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? But even so, telling negativity to the hardworking players will only increase their hardship. There are no players who don’t know about the deteriorating situation, but keeping listening to these will certainly make players exhausted and powerless.
He might as well talk about TL posters the last 3 years. Flash laying out the truth.
Great interview, thanks! Flash brings up some good points. Saying that SC2 is dying helps to kill SC2. It's not, so don't! And it's kind of sad to me that Flash knew his friends would retire for a long time before they actually did. Good luck to Flash!
Since Flash says he gets good results at foreign tournaments, maybe we'll see him go to a bunch in the future
On September 22 2013 16:11 larse wrote: Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
Ice cold, damn.
Yep, that's the point though. They wanted it to be this way.
welcome to todays gaming world, oh flash.... you have alot to learn
But he is right. Terran does not even have a variety of all-ins, let alone macro play :D
terran used to have the most diversity back when WOL was released. the numerous nerfs over time though has made terran the most predictable and 1 dimensional races in terms of openings and mid game compositions. kinda sad...
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Isn't he just talking about amateurs who are indeed starting to play SC2 and want some sort of advice to play well? If he is, then that's indeed true, it's much easier in SC2 to reach a decent level where what you do at least look like and feels like what you watch in progames. Mechanically at least. It's not like it's easy to earn money through playing this game though :D
I dont really trust flash tho..... hes the one that said 300 supply armys would be better? like wtf? him getting bombed out of DH I would imagine his head is in a bad spot right now.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Skill ceiling is a lot lower, so a lot of players are normalized. Even the players do who shine are unnaturally short-lived (Taeja, Innovation).
oh give me a break......teaja showed how much more skilled he is at DH, innovations TvT looked terrible , Flash clearly isnt practicing as much so give it up fan boys.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Skill ceiling is a lot lower, so a lot of players are normalized. Even the players do who shine are unnaturally short-lived (Taeja, Innovation).
oh give me a break......teaja showed how much more skilled he is at DH, innovations TvT looked terrible , Flash clearly isnt practicing as much so give it up fan boys.
Yeah that was my point originally, Flash looks good but Taeja and Bomber are on another level, it's not about the low skill ceiling it's about how Flash is quite a bit under the skill ceiling, whether that's lack of practice or lack of passion or what, only Flash knows.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
I thought TL's had this conversation countless times.
Think of the game as an industry, saying it is 'easy' really just means that it has much lower barriers to entry than BW did. If you were new to BW you might need 3 or more years of practice before you might consistently be able to, say, take about 3 of every 100 games played against Flash at his peak of experience and mechanics. Compare that to SC2, you'd need a lot less 'mileage' of practice for numerous reasons which have just been disputed and mentioned so often that I'll just spare you guys.
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
On September 22 2013 16:50 Cheren wrote: SC2 is pretty hard for a new player to get into though, not everyone has a BW background.
If more ppl had a Bw background even less would (still) be playing SC2. It's tough to drive a Prius once you had a Ferrari. Just ask all the retirees.
If they won something and then retire saying they don't like the game then their opinions might hold a little more weight.
he is referring to every single person that has ever played BW. Im low masters in SC2 and was D+ in BW so Im as shit as they come and I certainly have never won anything, so my opinion probably wont mean shit to you... but ill share it anyway. BW IS BY FAR THE HARDER AND BETTER GAME.
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
I hope you know TV isn't really that important :/ also I don't see why you only mention US tv when esports has been on other countries Television channels.
On September 22 2013 16:50 Cheren wrote: SC2 is pretty hard for a new player to get into though, not everyone has a BW background.
If more ppl had a Bw background even less would (still) be playing SC2. It's tough to drive a Prius once you had a Ferrari. Just ask all the retirees.
Both games surely have its merits, but what you are describing is personal preference at best. And SC2 is in a decent spot with still a lot of tournaments even with the bullshit "SC2 is dying bandwagon". Remember where foreigner BW was in comparison? Exactly.
AND we got loads of great koreans as well. Be it lack of passion, not having the same fun as in BW, which would make sense since Flash was (one of?) the best there - he is doing well but not where he was as a champion.
That's actually the hard reality he and his fans have to face instead of shitting all over SC2 because it is more convenient.
Flash isn't saying the skill ceiling in SC2 is lower than BW (and even if it is, it can't be reached by any human level players lol) - he's obviously talking about beginner players, where yes, a D+ player on Iccup already has the mechanics to be a master-level player on SC2.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Skill ceiling is a lot lower, so a lot of players are normalized. Even the players do who shine are unnaturally short-lived (Taeja, Innovation).
oh give me a break......teaja showed how much more skilled he is at DH, innovations TvT looked terrible , Flash clearly isnt practicing as much so give it up fan boys.
He admitted in interviews before he doesn't play over the weekends and spends at least few hours daily playing league of legends for fun with friends. Don't think he is into playing SC2 at all, he's just staying in the scene for the dollarz.
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
I hope you know TV isn't really that important :/
yea your right...just the fact it would be 10x bigger than it is now
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
I hope you know TV isn't really that important :/
yea your right...just the fact it would be 10x bigger than it is now
TV is nice but no non-esports/games people will tune it. and no it wouldn't be 10x larger, also
I don't see why you only mention US tv when esports has been on other countries Television channels.
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
I hope you know TV isn't really that important :/
yea your right...just the fact it would be 10x bigger than it is now
Then go and watch LoL or DotA or CS:GO or Streetfighter on TV.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Skill ceiling is a lot lower, so a lot of players are normalized. Even the players do who shine are unnaturally short-lived (Taeja, Innovation).
oh give me a break......teaja showed how much more skilled he is at DH, innovations TvT looked terrible , Flash clearly isnt practicing as much so give it up fan boys.
Its true. Just take a look at bomber, the wcs season 2 grand finalist and how he couldn't even make it to the ro16 this season..
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Skill ceiling is a lot lower, so a lot of players are normalized. Even the players do who shine are unnaturally short-lived (Taeja, Innovation).
oh give me a break......teaja showed how much more skilled he is at DH, innovations TvT looked terrible , Flash clearly isnt practicing as much so give it up fan boys.
Its true. Just take a look at bomber, the wcs season 2 grand finalist and how he couldn't even make it to the ro16 this season..
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
there was esports on usa tv.The game being played on espn was halo2.I think magic the gathering was also on espn 2.On usa tv you get if you are popular with american audience.And the way wcs na is right now with 99% non english speakers that will never make tv.I am sorry but on television stuff works differently:you are entertaining and you make viewers you are on.If not you are off and sc2 isn't reknowned for viewers in na.If a game will make it to usa tv it iwll most likely be cod because they are very strong in the na scene and also have lots of americans to entertain the crowds
On September 22 2013 16:50 Cheren wrote: SC2 is pretty hard for a new player to get into though, not everyone has a BW background.
If more ppl had a Bw background even less would (still) be playing SC2. It's tough to drive a Prius once you had a Ferrari. Just ask all the retirees.
If they won something and then retire saying they don't like the game then their opinions might hold a little more weight.
Yeah man you are right.what does flash know who has been in the scene for almost 7 years and accomplished more than most sc players?what does huk know?what do the korean coaches know?What do the streamers now?Their oppinion does not hold any weight.
On September 22 2013 18:15 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote: At least he is realistic about sc2's decline. We could see him switch out to another sport in a year or 2.
you talk about sc2 decline but what about esports in general? I dont see any esports on US tv? or even in the news for that matter. this big promising game called LOL isnt taking us anywheres, sure it has good twitch viewers but its extremely hard to follow and is to complicated to view for non gamers.
The "game" thats gonna take "esports" to the promise land is gonna be one thats easy to view for non players.
" Terran is a race with limited diversity, and my strategic diversity is even more limited"
"Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? "
This is the Elephant in the room. The problems with SC2 have been well studied and described for a long time now. The limited diversity of terran is only one of them. Instead, large parts of the community have a very negative attitude towards even discussing this. Let alone to do something about it.
Make yourselves heard. Stop being so damn politically correct. It is dumb.
Also his comments about SC2 being easier are quite obvious, everyone who is familiar with both games know it, it's a simple truth. But it is not really a burn, some of you people say pretty dumb things and jump on every opportunity to bash SC2. It is a big reason why I don't read the threads on here nearly as much as I used to, so much stupidity.
Edit:
On September 22 2013 19:52 Highways wrote: Easy game means very low skill ceiling.
It is hard for players to stand out because there is barely any mechanical skill to seperate yourself from other players.
That doesn't necessarily have to do with a low skill ceiling, but rather that the skill gap is lower. I think the skill ceiling is not the thing that makes SC2 easier, it's just easier to win against players that are better than you. Two pretty different things.
Easier mechanics allow strategist geniuses to shine, though. What's so great about mechanics anyway? I want to see brains clash and the more intelligent player to win.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Easy game means very low skill ceiling.
It is hard for players to stand out because there is barely any mechanical skill to seperate yourself from other players.
But then, why have players ever been on top for extended periods of time at all?
Because they had a better gamesens, because they created their own BO and strategies. I never remember telling "Wow, his macro and multitask is insane" by watching a game on SC2. We usually say "Wow, his timing/his strat is perfect" or something like that.
On September 22 2013 19:57 capu wrote: Easier mechanics allow strategist geniuses to shine, though. What's so great about mechanics anyway? I want to see brains clash and the more intelligent player to win.
Brains clashing and the more intelligent player winning. Sure ... + Show Spoiler +
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Easy game means very low skill ceiling.
It is hard for players to stand out because there is barely any mechanical skill to seperate yourself from other players.
Exactly. That's why now we have an even playing field where foreigners are doing about as well as their Korean counterparts - all things considered!
Oh wait...
While you have a point, you're not putting certain things into consideration. Korean players had to find different ways to win rather than with just mechanical strength. They got good at strategical decision making, unit composition and win in areas where it's still possible to become better at. As the skill ceiling narrows, builds get tighter, timings get preciser and small mistakes will lead to drastic outcomes, and this is what (imo) makes the game more volatile.
The volatility of this game is far more prominent than in broodwar, and it's an undeniable truth.
That aside, there have been many more times that foreigners took games off of koreans in starcraft 2 than in broodwar.
there has not been one consistent champion except for Mvp for an extended period of time. Champion's curse is a true story
On September 22 2013 19:57 capu wrote: Easier mechanics allow strategist geniuses to shine, though. What's so great about mechanics anyway? I want to see brains clash and the more intelligent player to win.
Brains clashing and the more intelligent player winning. Sure ... + Show Spoiler +
I can tell you're very privy to the strategic elements of SC2.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Easy game means very low skill ceiling.
It is hard for players to stand out because there is barely any mechanical skill to seperate yourself from other players.
Exactly. That's why now we have an even playing field where foreigners are doing about as well as their Korean counterparts - all things considered!
Oh wait...
While you have a point, you're not putting certain things into consideration. Korean players had to find different ways to win rather than with just mechanical strength. They got good at strategical decision making, unit composition and win in areas where it's still possible to become better at. As the skill ceiling narrows, builds get tighter, timings get preciser and small mistakes will lead to drastic outcomes, and this is what (imo) makes the game more volatile.
The volatility of this game is far more prominent than in broodwar, and it's an undeniable truth.
That aside, there have been many more times that foreigners took games off of koreans in starcraft 2 than in broodwar.
there has not been one consistent champion except for Mvp for an extended period of time. Champion's curse is a true story
It was true for a long time in BW too (*cough* OSL something something curse *cough*)
Coming from BW background, maybe that is how he felt. SC2 is very very easy, compared to BW. I tink every1 must have some idea about this. Just imagine. keke
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
easy is a relative term and a double edged sword
while it gets easier for you, it gets easier for your opponent aswell.
This is a good point to mention. Though in terms of difficulty argument, I think people are looking at it the wrong way. I say the skill ceiling in SC2 and in BW are the same. However, what's different is the skill room (not sure if this is an actual term that exists) or how many ways you can win or excel at the game or competition.
I made this comparison before but BW is like Chess boxing and SC2 is like Chess alone.
For someone who was B+ level in chess and boxing at the same time, their combined skill will allow them to defeat many people easily, even if the opponent has A+ in chess "or" boxing (if they don't have at least B+ In "both", then they may either be outmatched or at best equal with someone who is good at both).
When the game switches to being chess alone, then the people who excelled at "Chess boxing" by being good at both are potentially going to be outdone by people who may be more better at one (in this case, chess alone).
(Another quick example is Basketball competition vs a pure slam dunking contest. You can't say one is harder than the other directly but you can say a Basketball competition allows player to excel in different ways compared to a pure slam dunking contest where the only players who are good are the ones who are able to slam dunk well.)
Skill ceiling may be the same in BW and in SC2 but the skill diversity and requirements to win are much smaller in SC2 compared to BW.
In BW, you could win through many means (not only through strategy or build orders but simply by being mechanical better or just controlling Mutalisk better).
In SC2, the amount of ways you can win is lower.
In SC2, winning is still just as hard but the amount of ways you can win is lower than in BW.
Obviously, I am talking about mechanics. Also about mechanics, are they harder in BW or in SC2?
I say they're about the same difficulty "however" mechanics is much more rewarded (proportional to effort to micro/macro, etc) in BW than in SC2.
Sure in SC2, there are ton of micro and macro tricks you can do, and no one has mastered them.
However, are they practical to do and practical to master? No, and the reason is simply because most micro tricks in SC2 are just "how fast you can do it" and that's it. In BW, micro tricks wasn't just "how fast you can do it" but a large part of micro and how to efficiently micro the units required some thought into it.
Microing Mutalisk is probably one of the hardest things to master "however" it is very practical and easy to learn and do.
Also the way you use Mutalisk, requires attention, it's not just "spam clicky" like in SC2.
In BW, you had to only move certain directions with Mutalisk stack, and also you had to know when to use patrol, move, attack-move, direct attack, "or" hold position commands depending on angle and distance of the targets and what you want to do with the Mutalisk (yes, it really was that deep). For example, with Scourges, using patrol micro was much easier but if you wanted to attack marines or structures directly, sometimes manually moving the Mutalisk to the target "then" directly attacking the target you want it to attack is better than the others. In cases where you just want all the Mutalisk to fire at once then move right away, using hold position works well and is sometimes easier.
Doing Mutalisk micro wasn't "pure mechanical" thing but actually had some thought process as well.
In SC2, there aren't that many instances of micro with that much depth. I say the closest to practical and rewarding micro is blink stalker micro. Splitting up marines or splitting up units against banelings or AoE targets is something "you just do" and simply requires quick reflexes and actions.
In BW, there were much more deep micro tricks that wasn't just how fast you did it but also required thought as there may have been multiple ways for you to do it. Splitting up marines against banelings is just one thing. The way you controlled Mutalisk or Shuttle + Reaver or Vultures had many methods to do it.
This allowed players to differentiate and distinguish themselves more.
TL:DR - In BW there are more ways to play and win compared to SC2. For example, there are more ways you can micro a unit in BW than in SC2. If you took advantage of all the different ways to micro, then you are rewarded for it. Microing in BW wasn't just "how fast you did it" but also (as noted by Mutalisk micro for example) required a lot of thought because there are so many different ways to control the Mutalisk.
Anyway, as for BW or SC2 or the debate which game is better and which game is more casual friendly.
Honestly I say BW is more casual friendly. Why? The game is more rewarding to play. When you practice how to use a unit, you get better, it really shows. In SC2, there aren't as many units like that where you are really rewarded for just using them. It's more strategy oriented. Anything that requires micro is usually "how fast you can react or how fast you can do it" while in BW, the micro was more practical and easier to do and easier for beginners to learn.
I remember reading that BW (after HotS released) is still beating SC2 (in South Korea). BW is 6th place in PC bangs while SC2 is 11th.
Again, in BW, how you practiced micro and macro was more straight forward, and micro tricks were easy to replicate but still hard to master. Micro wasn't just "you need good reflexes and need to be fast" but they also had a lot of depth and you could learn and get better easier. When a casual player watches a pro does something, then tries it, and finds out they can do it decently then they feel rewarded and want to try more. Compared to SC2, when most of it just goes down to "how fast you can do it and if you aren't this fast, you can't do it well", then it's not as easy to get into or learn or practice.
On September 22 2013 20:34 Goldfish wrote: I remember reading that BW (after HotS released) is still beating SC2 (in South Korea). BW is 6th place in PC bangs while SC2 is 11th.
On September 22 2013 16:56 UmberBane wrote: I actually think for a new player BW is easier to get into.
What I mean by that is that due to how UMS and team games were in BW, a lot more casual players could have a blast just playing with their friends, yet still got "into" the game and built up some appreciation for the professional play, even if it's on the most basic level (that's how BW/eSports in Korea worked, and still does, just with other games). In SC2 it's not that inviting and you feel more lonely, which makes it harder again for a complete newb to get into it.
I know of course that the question was aimed at 1v1 ladder, but still.
BW's barrier for entry at this point in time is pretty ridiculous. Most people who are still playing have been doing so for years and it's hard for newcomers to accept that they're going to have to start things off by losing like 50 games in a row, even in UMS and teams.
Oh the difficult discussion coming up alot lately. Sc2 is faster then BW in order to make up for the easier mechanical demand. Difficult shifted not changed. Imo Sc2 is harder, because it is rather easy to learn those tedious acts in BW, compared to getting faster in your decisions as you need in Sc2. But that is only my personal experience and partly analysis of professional gaming and what makes the players special that are usually on top.
But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments.
On September 22 2013 22:26 FeyFey wrote: Oh the difficult discussion coming up alot lately. Sc2 is faster then BW in order to make up for the easier mechanical demand. Difficult shifted not changed. Imo Sc2 is harder, because it is rather easy to learn those tedious acts in BW, compared to getting faster in your decisions as you need in Sc2. But that is only my personal experience and partly analysis of professional gaming and what makes the players special that are usually on top.
But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments.
On September 22 2013 22:26 FeyFey wrote: Oh the difficult discussion coming up alot lately. Sc2 is faster then BW in order to make up for the easier mechanical demand. Difficult shifted not changed. Imo Sc2 is harder, because it is rather easy to learn those tedious acts in BW, compared to getting faster in your decisions as you need in Sc2. But that is only my personal experience and partly analysis of professional gaming and what makes the players special that are usually on top.
But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments.
The gamespeed is faster in broodwar
The actual gameplay speed in SC2 is much faster though.
"Although my result was not good in this Dreamhack, I will make foreign tournaments my main focus."
Ah yes the classical strat of koreans who are not achieving success in korea atm:only foreign tournaments and then transition into foreign team and probably foreign wcs.It did miracles for jaedong.Although I would much more prefer to see flash in wcs eu and na.He has a good foreign fanbase and if he pulls miracles like jaedong he will most likely boost the viewership of those regions.Flahs and jaedong and maybe boxer are probably the only koreans who can surpass a foreigner in terms of popularity and appeal so it would actually help eu and na get more popularity.If flash does not achieve much in this wcs season most likely he will transfer innovation style ot a foreign team.EGFlash with Flash and Jaedong in the same team would be awsome,
Great interview. I was worried about Flash losing hope and leaning towards retire recently, and I am glad that doesn't seem to be on his mind at al. GOGO Flash !!
jesus people are so scared and protective of what they know
get over it.
bw was harder to play so more effort went into being able to just play the game
sc2 is easier to play so more effort allegedly goes itno strategy ... in rality there isnt much so in the end it turns into precision of execustion -> voilotile games.
what is the problem understanding what is happening?
Why not go play a real strategy game then come back and talk about strategy.
Its a REAL time strategy game ... its still at the end of the day having a higher tick rate than the other guy
On September 22 2013 22:26 FeyFey wrote: Oh the difficult discussion coming up alot lately. Sc2 is faster then BW in order to make up for the easier mechanical demand. Difficult shifted not changed. Imo Sc2 is harder, because it is rather easy to learn those tedious acts in BW, compared to getting faster in your decisions as you need in Sc2. But that is only my personal experience and partly analysis of professional gaming and what makes the players special that are usually on top.
But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments.
The gamespeed is faster in broodwar
The actual gameplay speed in SC2 is much faster though.
On September 22 2013 22:26 FeyFey wrote: Oh the difficult discussion coming up alot lately. Sc2 is faster then BW in order to make up for the easier mechanical demand. Difficult shifted not changed. Imo Sc2 is harder, because it is rather easy to learn those tedious acts in BW, compared to getting faster in your decisions as you need in Sc2. But that is only my personal experience and partly analysis of professional gaming and what makes the players special that are usually on top.
But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments.
The gamespeed is faster in broodwar
The actual gameplay speed in SC2 is much faster though.
What do u mean?
Compare amount of time you spend in BW battle and SC2 battle.
With SC2 being easier i wonder what makes it hard for most of exBW players to dominate?
Can't be lack of experience or practice at this point, is there some intricacy about the game that they're missing? or is it that in this new game there's just better players than they are?
On September 23 2013 00:10 Gendo wrote: With SC2 being easier i wonder what makes it hard for most of exBW players to dominate?
Can't be lack of experience or practice at this point, is there some intricacy about the game that they're missing? or is it that in this new game there's just better players than they are?
SC2 being easier in Flash' words means easier to get good enough mechanics. BW and SC2 honestly require slightly different skill sets.
Players are the ones who know the scene most, right? When people around you are talking about the negativity all the time, players will feel ashamed. Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? But even so, telling negativity to the hardworking players will only increase their hardship. There are no players who don’t know about the deteriorating situation, but keeping listening to these will certainly make players exhausted and powerless.
It's me or is he meaning that all this doom and gloom is indeed self-fullfilling prophecy?
It may not be 100% that but it certainly makes it worse.
On September 23 2013 00:10 Gendo wrote: With SC2 being easier i wonder what makes it hard for most of exBW players to dominate?
Can't be lack of experience or practice at this point, is there some intricacy about the game that they're missing? or is it that in this new game there's just better players than they are?
SC2 being easier in Flash' words means easier to get good enough mechanics. BW and SC2 honestly require slightly different skill sets.
exactly. the fact that its "easy" in the terms they say means mechanics has less impact on the output of the game where as in bw mechanics was the biggest factor. so easier in that regard makes them more equal to everyone else which gives them a worse chance of winning constantly
want to include Terran diversity... make tech switching possible and bring back the medic...
and also reduce caster potential, and nerf the immortals shield to make a mech slightly more possible in TvP... or make ultras more viable in ZvP because the only Ultra transition works is when the Toss doesn't scout it.
On September 23 2013 00:10 Gendo wrote: With SC2 being easier i wonder what makes it hard for most of exBW players to dominate?
Can't be lack of experience or practice at this point, is there some intricacy about the game that they're missing? or is it that in this new game there's just better players than they are?
SC2 being easier in Flash' words means easier to get good enough mechanics. BW and SC2 honestly require slightly different skill sets.
exactly. the fact that its "easy" in the terms they say means mechanics has less impact on the output of the game where as in bw mechanics was the biggest factor. so easier in that regard makes them more equal to everyone else which gives them a worse chance of winning constantly
While it was a huge factor I don't think it was the main one. Towards the end of the BW OSL's you could see that the best mechanical players were not the ones consistently winning.
This can be seen in the past as well, outliers like Savior for example who had decent macro/micro but were not the main reasons they won. On the other hand iloveoov had better macro than anyone else in his lifetime but even his wins did not only come from his insane macro skill.
I don't really remember correctly, but iirc Hiya was super fast but wasn't "that" good.
On September 22 2013 19:02 one-one-one wrote: Some (cherry picked, perhaps) quotes from Flash.
" Terran is a race with limited diversity, and my strategic diversity is even more limited"
"Who doesn’t know that SC2 is facing difficulties? "
This is the Elephant in the room. The problems with SC2 have been well studied and described for a long time now. The limited diversity of terran is only one of them. Instead, large parts of the community have a very negative attitude towards even discussing this. Let alone to do something about it.
Make yourselves heard. Stop being so damn politically correct. It is dumb.
You are one of the few here who are not discussing "sc2 is easier". I never thought that becomes the main point of discussion. I thought people will discuss the retirement wave and sc2's decline. . .
On September 23 2013 00:10 Gendo wrote: With SC2 being easier i wonder what makes it hard for most of exBW players to dominate?
Can't be lack of experience or practice at this point, is there some intricacy about the game that they're missing? or is it that in this new game there's just better players than they are?
SC2 being easier in Flash' words means easier to get good enough mechanics. BW and SC2 honestly require slightly different skill sets.
BW requires all of the skill sets that has SC2 does, and a lot more. It's the simple truth.
Basically, he just means that the skillcap is lower. By saying the game is easier, he is not implying that he should dominate. Since it is so easy, there are less things a player can do to differentiate themselves from the rest.
On September 23 2013 00:10 Gendo wrote: With SC2 being easier i wonder what makes it hard for most of exBW players to dominate?
Can't be lack of experience or practice at this point, is there some intricacy about the game that they're missing? or is it that in this new game there's just better players than they are?
SC2 being easier in Flash' words means easier to get good enough mechanics. BW and SC2 honestly require slightly different skill sets.
BW requires all of the skill sets that has SC2 does, and a lot more. It's the simple truth.
This is incorrect. SC2 and BW are hard in different aspects - don't for a second believe that BW is harder in all of them.
On September 23 2013 01:22 purakushi wrote: Basically, he just means that the skillcap is lower. By saying the game is easier, he is not implying that he should dominate. Since it is so easy, there are less things a player can do to differentiate themselves from the rest.
The skillcap talk is meaningless - there is no "cap" that a human being can reach as it would require you to do everything perfectly. It's just not possible and never will be. Besides, I think what he's saying is that it's easier to reach a decent level mechanically speaking, not easier to play at the top level.
people who misuse "skill ceiling" are so tilting. noone is going to come close to the skill ceiling in either game so stop saying the skill ceiling in sc2 is too low, it makes you look really stupid.
Sc2 is by far easier game than bw and that is why its difficult for top players to even remain for long time. The game simply has no other skills like macroing( i mean going back to your base to spam z z z z z into your gateways while you fight and rally your workers), or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a ing micro constantly, or having to multitAsk while doing all that. Bw simply was much harder. The lack of those skills and possibly more don't allow sc2 players to be really distinguished from each other. There's a reason why bw legends were able toget 4+ awards constantly and dominating even b/a level players who are also really good.
On September 23 2013 01:33 Shinokuki wrote: Oh geesh the comments here want to make me laugh
Sc2 is by far easier game than bw and that is why its difficult for top players to even remain for long time. The game simply has no other skills like macroing( i mean going back to your base to spam z z z z z into your gateways while you fight and rally your workers), or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a ing micro constantly, or having to multitAsk while doing all that. Bw simply was much harder. The lack of those skills and possibly more don't allow sc2 players to be really distinguished from each other. There's a reason why bw legends were able toget 4+ awards constantly and dominating even b/a level players who are also really good.
Yeah, the consistency of BW really is the reason why no OSL Champion ever fell out of the first round the next OSL
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
The fact its mechanically easy puts more emphasis on other things to distinguish the winners such as your builds meaning if you pick the wrong ones or get too predictable as flash admits he does then you end up losing more then other players. Its impossible to question flash mechanics too much history to just dismiss that, but his builds and play style are more open to criticism
On September 23 2013 01:33 Shinokuki wrote: Oh geesh the comments here want to make me laugh
Sc2 is by far easier game than bw and that is why its difficult for top players to even remain for long time. The game simply has no other skills like macroing( i mean going back to your base to spam z z z z z into your gateways while you fight and rally your workers), or 1a2a3a4a5a6a7a ing micro constantly, or having to multitAsk while doing all that. Bw simply was much harder. The lack of those skills and possibly more don't allow sc2 players to be really distinguished from each other. There's a reason why bw legends were able toget 4+ awards constantly and dominating even b/a level players who are also really good.
Yeah, the consistency of BW really is the reason why no OSL Champion ever fell out of the first round the next OSL
Yeah I always thought this was true even from the beginning they are just different games hard to compare. The slower pace of BW was a big part of allowing micro and battles to make more a difference.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
On September 23 2013 01:22 purakushi wrote: Basically, he just means that the skillcap is lower. By saying the game is easier, he is not implying that he should dominate. Since it is so easy, there are less things a player can do to differentiate themselves from the rest.
The skillcap talk is meaningless - there is no "cap" that a human being can reach as it would require you to do everything perfectly. It's just not possible and never will be. Besides, I think what he's saying is that it's easier to reach a decent level mechanically speaking, not easier to play at the top level.
I am not speaking on those terms. There are just so many things that humans can not do perfectly within BW and in SC2. That does not matter. What matters is what humans are capable of. Korean pros are already playing at the best the game can be played at. Due to the nature of the game, no one can be consistent. Sure, they can be consistently near the top, but there will never be a dominating players like there were in BW, where players have considerably more avenues of outplaying their opponents. (Note: I am only listing BW just as an example.)
Understandably, SC2 is a different game, but more often than not, one wrong move, you can just die. The game is very punishing. While a very punishing game can be exciting and whatnot, if you factor in how well players can play across several years to just how easy it is to lose a game, that is an intrinsic cap on how well a player can play.
Basically, in the highest of the high tiers of SC2, there will never be true consistency, just because SC2 involves a lot more gambling, absolute build order losses, and AI playing for you (i.e. less avenues of player skill versus player skill).
I respect all of the greatest SC2 players, but I always cringe when people bring up the "B" word in SC2. Not even close.
I think Flash hit the nail on the head when he said that he was confused why fans are being so negative. SC2 is dying is a self-fulfilling prophecy. I for one don't buy into it, especially since a new generation of progamer has emerged.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
This has to be a troll, 68% is pretty much exactly Mvp's winrate for all 3 years.
I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
Playing a bunch of tournaments with foreigners in them doesn't compare to the Brood War records that were created playing only other players and in events from KeSPA, the most serious and professional eSports organization on the planet.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Back in wol early-mid yes terran did, I would agree that now especially in hots their diversity is pretty limited. Protoss is now the race that has many, many builds compared to zerg or terran.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
TvP Mech unplayable
TvZ mech not really viable (viper say hello)
TvT mech is viable. widow mines counter battlecruisers wtf....
TvP : what should be better than cc first in TvP? don't forget MSC decline the most/all early agression. at his skil level.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
TvP Mech unplayable
TvZ mech not really viable (viper say hello)
TvT mech is viable. widow mines counter battlecruisers wtf....
TvP : what should be better than cc first in TvP? don't forget MSC decline the most/all early agression. at his skil level.
It is not really about viable versus not viable. It is about the best way to play, which Koreans obviously want to do. Bio has always been the best way to play Terran. It just scales so well to multitasking and mechanical skill overall.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
David Kim hates Siege Tanks...He build SC2 on the idea of to make them useless and put in the game many units that hard counters them. Even in Hots Blizzard put more units to counter Mech especially for Zerg: buffed Ultras, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, buffed mutas. I can't see how Blizzard can make Mech viable with the amount of hard counters present in the game. In BW the most exciting fights involved mech play, just saying.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
David Kim hates Siege Tanks...He build SC2 on the idea of to make them useless and put in the game many units that hard counters them. Even in Hots Blizzard put more units to counter Mech especially for Zerg: buffed Ultras, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, buffed mutas. I can't see how Blizzard can make Mech viable with the amount of hard counters present in the game. In BW the most exciting fights involved mech play, just saying.
most exciting fights? Let me remember from the old good Bogus v Soulkey encounters in SPL... Uhm, they did not involve meching player doing anything other than a moving and pressing o though. Also, ultras honestly suck against good turtle mech, so buff for ultras is irrelevant. Especially since ultra buff was related to usage of fucking marines and hellions to tank 'em. Swarm hosts were designed to counter turtling play, especially since it was getting kinda popular when SHs were created and zerg (pre ghost nerf) did not even had a way to actually destroy it (see Mvp vs Nestea final game of Blizzcon). Vipers actually were needed to negate positional advantages, as zerg was outright horrible in positional disadvantage. Buffed mutas... thank widow mines.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
David Kim hates Siege Tanks...He build SC2 on the idea of to make them useless and put in the game many units that hard counters them. Even in Hots Blizzard put more units to counter Mech especially for Zerg: buffed Ultras, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, buffed mutas. I can't see how Blizzard can make Mech viable with the amount of hard counters present in the game. In BW the most exciting fights involved mech play, just saying.
most exciting fights? Let me remember from the old good Bogus v Soulkey encounters in SPL... Uhm, they did not involve meching player doing anything other than a moving and pressing o though. Also, ultras honestly suck against good turtle mech, so buff for ultras is irrelevant. Especially since ultra buff was related to usage of fucking marines and hellions to tank 'em. Swarm hosts were designed to counter turtling play, especially since it was getting kinda popular when SHs were created and zerg (pre ghost nerf) did not even had a way to actually destroy it (see Mvp vs Nestea final game of Blizzcon). Vipers actually were needed to negate positional advantages, as zerg was outright horrible in positional disadvantage. Buffed mutas... thank widow mines.
SH counter turtle mech play... check Viper counter non-turtle mech play... check Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Huge respect for Flash. Also, I can't see how this interview could be interpreted as an attack on SC2. Clearly, Flash is someone that still believes in SC2, despite the leaving of some of his colleagues.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
he will always be known to me, as a woongjin terran!
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Best comment all thread.
What Flash meant as a comment to encourage new players turned this thread into the billionth sc2 v bw argue-fest.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
"His third year was plagued by the infestor." Hahaha. This is so funny. It is indeed a healthy problem.
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
I think he is saying that you don't have to fight the UI to be able to multitask etc. That means that its easier for a newbie to pick up the game and play, instead of simply learning how to build your base and manage your workers. So taking advantage of the fact that you can easily Q units, buildings, and rally points, as well as put your army in one huge group, its easier for a new player to play at decent level compared to having to learn the interface first.
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
If your enemy is in position where he can ignore your production I guess you already have lost the game.
Also, you are wrong and I'm right with the Viper:
With Mutas, it boils down to micro/control. If WM is the ultimate hard-counter to Mutas, why do we see them every game vs 4M?
edit: Blinding Cloud was not able to blind mechanical units when it was first released. Also sorry for off topic.
To be brutally honest I think if the next Proleague was BW they would have more fans in the stands. Also it was rumored next Proleague would be SC2's last, only LOL from then on.
On September 23 2013 03:46 rift wrote: To be brutally honest I think if the next Proleague was BW they would have more fans in the stands. Also it was rumored next Proleague would be SC2's last, only LOL from then on.
There were rumors that the last PL would be the last and that clearly wasn't the case
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
If your enemy is in position where he can ignore your production I guess you already have lost the game.
With Mutas, it boils down to micro/control. If WM is the ultimate hard-counter to Mutas, why do we see them every game vs 4M?
edit: Blinding Cloud was not able to blind mechanical units when it was first released. Also sorry for off topic.
1st. Goswser vs Lucifron game 3 Newkirk. Tell me way to win it without utilising swarm hosts and vipers. No, answer: do not get it there does not count. I dare to say that SH/Viper hard counters it too hard, but that should tweaked, not much more. 2nd. What am i seeing is viper casting cloud on bunch of units and 2 bunkers, what is designed to counter large packs of marines? 3rd i did not say WM is ultimate hard counter to muta, i just say that those muta buffs were most likely related to unintentional relation between WMs and pre-buff Mutas aka WMs were too good against pre-buff Mutas 4th: have no clue, Blizzcon version had shredders too ^_^
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
If your enemy is in position where he can ignore your production I guess you already have lost the game.
With Mutas, it boils down to micro/control. If WM is the ultimate hard-counter to Mutas, why do we see them every game vs 4M?
edit: Blinding Cloud was not able to blind mechanical units when it was first released. Also sorry for off topic.
1st. Goswser vs Lucifron game 3 Newkirk. Tell me way to win it without utilising swarm hosts and vipers. No, answer: do not get it there does not count. I dare to say that SH/Viper hard counters it too hard, but that should tweaked, not much more. 2nd. What am i seeing is viper casting cloud on bunch of units and 2 bunkers, what is designed to counter large packs of marines? 3rd i did not say WM is ultimate hard counter to muta, i just say that those muta buffs were most likely related to unintentional relation between WMs and pre-buff Mutas aka WMs were too good against pre-buff Mutas 4th: have no clue, Blizzcon version had shredders too ^_^
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
If your enemy is in position where he can ignore your production I guess you already have lost the game.
With Mutas, it boils down to micro/control. If WM is the ultimate hard-counter to Mutas, why do we see them every game vs 4M?
edit: Blinding Cloud was not able to blind mechanical units when it was first released. Also sorry for off topic.
1st. Goswser vs Lucifron game 3 Newkirk. Tell me way to win it without utilising swarm hosts and vipers. No, answer: do not get it there does not count. I dare to say that SH/Viper hard counters it too hard, but that should tweaked, not much more. 2nd. What am i seeing is viper casting cloud on bunch of units and 2 bunkers, what is designed to counter large packs of marines? 3rd i did not say WM is ultimate hard counter to muta, i just say that those muta buffs were most likely related to unintentional relation between WMs and pre-buff Mutas aka WMs were too good against pre-buff Mutas 4th: have no clue, Blizzcon version had shredders too ^_^
:D you win
Do you like Flashes answers?
I liked his interview, though i feel he does not really like the game.
On September 23 2013 03:57 Badfatpanda wrote: I understand it must be hard not be to negative as a Korean progamer at the moment, now that Sniper is back to crush their hopes and dreams and all.
Haha. But that's okay, Sniper is their good friend, when he does not crush their hopes and stuff.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Him and Flash are really comparable too in their respective careers, even ignoring the fact that they are both terran innovators, both won near 400k USD worth of price earnings (Flash a bit more than 400k, Mvp a bit less), both have a similar amount of gold medals, 9 for Mvp and 10 for Flash. Flash won tournaments in 2008, 2009, 2010, and an MSL in 2011. Mvp won tournaments 2011, 2012, 2013, and since he's a crazy bastard, he might as well win a random tournament in 2014 too. So, basically similar length of being in the top. Sure there are a lot of differences, both between the games, the tournament scene, and exactly how they achieved the victories - and how "dominant" they were (Such a bad term though, dominance comes in many forms - but Flash does win in the dominance apartment). Anyway, I don't say this to make the argument Mvp is like Flash as a player, as he's not, they are quite dissimilar people, and very unlike in their playstyle and they have been players under vastly different circumstances. But, it exemplifies the truth that really, BW and SC2 results are more similar than people claim. BW had a ton of 1 time MSL/OSL winners too (And this despite a more unified scene - SC2 has a very split up scene, yet still comparable 1 time championship numbers), and a number of players would scrape out tournament wins, despite having slumps at certain times - not really be dominant for years and years. oov dominated in 2004, then got hit by the OSL winner's curse (Yes, in BW, people would win a tournament and then promptly fall out in the beginning of the next one(s)!), before he had a resurgence for 2006. NaDa slumped time after time, but somehow always clawed his way back in. Both of those guys are considered bonjwas.
Anyway, I'm tired and not sure exactly why I felt compelled to say this, but there you have it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, I wanted to say that SC2 has only existed for a short amount of time, give it a few years and TaeJa will be the next NaDa (The real God of BW!).
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
"His third year was plagued by the infestor." Hahaha. This is so funny. It is indeed a healthy problem.
it helped that there were 9 gomtv tournaments and 20 million foreign events in 2011 as well
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Truer words have not been spoken. You simply cannot compare BW and SC2 by comparing periods of dominance because SC2 literally has about five times as many tournaments as BW. Basically, "dominance" is defined differently in both games. In BW, dominance is defined as winning many successive tournaments over the course of years - the typical image of a bonjwa. In SC2, it's much much harder to dominate in the same way as BW because you have a new champion popping up every week or so.
Oh look, INnoVation's the best in the world! Maru just won OSL so he's the best! Wait a second, Bomber just won the season finals, he's clearly the best! But just now, TaeJa just owned INnoVation and won DH, while Bomber performed poorly in GSTL, that makes TaeJa the best. And next week, the best player is...
With that said, how does one define dominance in SC2? You simply point to the King.
In Starcraft 2 tournaments you have longer series than in Brood War. Keep in mind that Flash had repeated top showings while surviving a ton of short series. And it's more complicated than that, since match-ups are different in terms of variance as well. And of course there is the fact that shorter series and seeds means less games played for top players, so less exposure of your play style. And the repeated Code S tournaments in a short time span favor Mvp way more than Flash. So I don't think you can compare win rates and tournament victories all that easily. And that's not even getting into strength of opposition.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
I enjoyed reading this. Thanks. I've thought before that one reason players get figured out faster and more often in SC2 is because there are simply more games played, and therefore more replays, more strategy, more analysis etc than there was for BW. Given all of that, it really puts MVP's period of dominance into perspective. He really was the King.
It's also one reason why SC2, at times, can be seen to be boring. There is simply so much of it.
On September 23 2013 03:46 rift wrote: To be brutally honest I think if the next Proleague was BW they would have more fans in the stands. Also it was rumored next Proleague would be SC2's last, only LOL from then on.
There were rumors that the last PL would be the last and that clearly wasn't the case
But how will they full fill the prophecy of SC2 dying if the league doesn't end? Or will we just keep saying it year after year until it comes true?
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Best quote in the thread. I love you and everything you stand for, like logic and math.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
TvP Mech unplayable
TvZ mech not really viable (viper say hello)
TvT mech is viable. widow mines counter battlecruisers wtf....
TvP : what should be better than cc first in TvP? don't forget MSC decline the most/all early agression. at his skil level.
CC first has a hard time against early mothership core attacks as well as oracle harass.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Him and Flash are really comparable too in their respective careers, even ignoring the fact that they are both terran innovators, both won near 400k USD worth of price earnings (Flash a bit more than 400k, Mvp a bit less), both have a similar amount of gold medals, 9 for Mvp and 10 for Flash. Flash won tournaments in 2008, 2009, 2010, and an MSL in 2011. Mvp won tournaments 2011, 2012, 2013, and since he's a crazy bastard, he might as well win a random tournament in 2014 too. So, basically similar length of being in the top. Sure there are a lot of differences, both between the games, the tournament scene, and exactly how they achieved the victories - and how "dominant" they were (Such a bad term though, dominance comes in many forms - but Flash does win in the dominance apartment). Anyway, I don't say this to make the argument Mvp is like Flash as a player, as he's not, they are quite dissimilar people, and very unlike in their playstyle and they have been players under vastly different circumstances. But, it exemplifies the truth that really, BW and SC2 results are more similar than people claim. BW had a ton of 1 time MSL/OSL winners too (And this despite a more unified scene - SC2 has a very split up scene, yet still comparable 1 time championship numbers), and a number of players would scrape out tournament wins, despite having slumps at certain times - not really be dominant for years and years. oov dominated in 2004, then got hit by the OSL winner's curse (Yes, in BW, people would win a tournament and then promptly fall out in the beginning of the next one(s)!), before he had a resurgence for 2006. NaDa slumped time after time, but somehow always clawed his way back in. Both of those guys are considered bonjwas.
Anyway, I'm tired and not sure exactly why I felt compelled to say this, but there you have it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, I wanted to say that SC2 has only existed for a short amount of time, give it a few years and TaeJa will be the next NaDa (The real God of BW!).
Unfortunately discussions on this topic are about as bad if not worse than balance discussions. Bonjwa is a word held to such an unearthly high esteem that a fundamentalist interpretation of the word has been developed by some of the BW (and some of the SC2) community that will not tolerate the discussion at all -- not even the declaration of a Bonjwa, just the discussion of it; the threads get derailed and go to shit.
They just don't realize that the Bonjwa as it was defined from 2000-2010 is dead and buried, and there will probably never be a strictly defined Bonjwa again -- at least, not in SC2 like there was in BW. Not because there isn't a player good enough, but because of the exact reason of over-saturation in the amount of tournament games played. The only way to determine if MVP was a Bonjwa comparable to BW Bonjwas would require significant theorycrafting as to how he would dominate if given the same environment BW Bonjwas had with more practice and less opportunities to be studied and sniped. But theres no way to arrive at a conclusion leaving no doubt under such pretenses. The only rational way to discuss it is to disregard what made a BW Bonjwa and re-define it for SC2, accepting that dominance has more modern and different requirements in SC2. Or just sit in a corner and say no whilst grasping the gospel of BW's golden era and never let an SC2 player who may legitimately earn the title be granted the honor.
It's literally comparable to sports discussions that argue which player from x era was greater, like comparing Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretsky, or Muhammad Ali to Mike Tyson. Except they still consider the latter competitors great. :/
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Him and Flash are really comparable too in their respective careers, even ignoring the fact that they are both terran innovators, both won near 400k USD worth of price earnings (Flash a bit more than 400k, Mvp a bit less), both have a similar amount of gold medals, 9 for Mvp and 10 for Flash. Flash won tournaments in 2008, 2009, 2010, and an MSL in 2011. Mvp won tournaments 2011, 2012, 2013, and since he's a crazy bastard, he might as well win a random tournament in 2014 too. So, basically similar length of being in the top. Sure there are a lot of differences, both between the games, the tournament scene, and exactly how they achieved the victories - and how "dominant" they were (Such a bad term though, dominance comes in many forms - but Flash does win in the dominance apartment). Anyway, I don't say this to make the argument Mvp is like Flash as a player, as he's not, they are quite dissimilar people, and very unlike in their playstyle and they have been players under vastly different circumstances. But, it exemplifies the truth that really, BW and SC2 results are more similar than people claim. BW had a ton of 1 time MSL/OSL winners too (And this despite a more unified scene - SC2 has a very split up scene, yet still comparable 1 time championship numbers), and a number of players would scrape out tournament wins, despite having slumps at certain times - not really be dominant for years and years. oov dominated in 2004, then got hit by the OSL winner's curse (Yes, in BW, people would win a tournament and then promptly fall out in the beginning of the next one(s)!), before he had a resurgence for 2006. NaDa slumped time after time, but somehow always clawed his way back in. Both of those guys are considered bonjwas.
Anyway, I'm tired and not sure exactly why I felt compelled to say this, but there you have it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, I wanted to say that SC2 has only existed for a short amount of time, give it a few years and TaeJa will be the next NaDa (The real God of BW!).
Unfortunately discussions on this topic are about as bad if not worse than balance discussions. Bonjwa is a word held to such an unearthly high esteem that a fundamentalist interpretation of the word has been developed by some of the BW (and some of the SC2) community that will not tolerate the discussion at all -- not even the declaration of a Bonjwa, just the discussion of it; the threads get derailed and go to shit.
They just don't realize that the Bonjwa as it was defined from 2000-2010 is dead and buried, and there will probably never be a strictly defined Bonjwa again -- at least, not in SC2 like there was in BW. Not because there isn't a player good enough, but because of the exact reason of over-saturation in the amount of tournament games played. The only way to determine if MVP was a Bonjwa comparable to BW Bonjwas would require significant theorycrafting as to how he would dominate if given the same environment BW Bonjwas had with more practice and less opportunities to be studied and sniped. But theres no way to arrive at a conclusion leaving no doubt under such pretenses. The only rational way to discuss it is to disregard what made a BW Bonjwa and re-define it for SC2, accepting that dominance has more modern and different requirements in SC2. Or just sit in a corner and say no whilst grasping the gospel of BW's golden era and never let an SC2 player who may legitimately earn the title be granted the honor.
It's literally comparable to sports discussions that argue which player from x era was greater, like comparing Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretsky, or Muhammad Ali to Mike Tyson. Except they still consider the latter competitors great. :/
hehe ya, the word Bonjwa is held to a really high standard in the BW community. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only 5 bonjwas in BW. Heck, Jaedong, the tyrant, the player who was a top 2 Zerg by BW's end and accomplished a lot over his rather long career isn't considered a bonjwa by many BW fans so ya, strict definition of what a bonjwa is.
As for mvp, he has my respect for being quite the force in WoL and he is indeed the king of wings. I still dunno if such a word applies to him though. He definitely had some periods where he played really well but when considering just how many GSLs there are and how long his WoL career was etc... it doesn't feel like he was as dominant as I initially thought. His record while impressive has a lot of foreigner wins in them. I think if we are to go back and look at his real record(only Koreans and GSL) then maybe we'll see a different picture(one of less dominance). Either way, he was the best player in WoL(for quite some time) and no one can take that away from him.
If there's anyone that I would've considered a bonjwa had he continued his dominance, it would've been life. That kid has balls of steel. Being down 3-0 against leenock and coming back 4 games in a row to win. Winning mvp 4-3 in a close series to win GSL. He was always favoured against everyone he played against when he made his breakout and if it wasn't for HoTS release, he might still be. We might've even see a bonjwa in SCII(by SCII standards I mean). To me, life would've been the only SCII bonjwa if he continued his great play. Too bad he slipped and plays as much LoL as SCII these days lol
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Him and Flash are really comparable too in their respective careers, even ignoring the fact that they are both terran innovators, both won near 400k USD worth of price earnings (Flash a bit more than 400k, Mvp a bit less), both have a similar amount of gold medals, 9 for Mvp and 10 for Flash. Flash won tournaments in 2008, 2009, 2010, and an MSL in 2011. Mvp won tournaments 2011, 2012, 2013, and since he's a crazy bastard, he might as well win a random tournament in 2014 too. So, basically similar length of being in the top. Sure there are a lot of differences, both between the games, the tournament scene, and exactly how they achieved the victories - and how "dominant" they were (Such a bad term though, dominance comes in many forms - but Flash does win in the dominance apartment). Anyway, I don't say this to make the argument Mvp is like Flash as a player, as he's not, they are quite dissimilar people, and very unlike in their playstyle and they have been players under vastly different circumstances. But, it exemplifies the truth that really, BW and SC2 results are more similar than people claim. BW had a ton of 1 time MSL/OSL winners too (And this despite a more unified scene - SC2 has a very split up scene, yet still comparable 1 time championship numbers), and a number of players would scrape out tournament wins, despite having slumps at certain times - not really be dominant for years and years. oov dominated in 2004, then got hit by the OSL winner's curse (Yes, in BW, people would win a tournament and then promptly fall out in the beginning of the next one(s)!), before he had a resurgence for 2006. NaDa slumped time after time, but somehow always clawed his way back in. Both of those guys are considered bonjwas.
Anyway, I'm tired and not sure exactly why I felt compelled to say this, but there you have it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, I wanted to say that SC2 has only existed for a short amount of time, give it a few years and TaeJa will be the next NaDa (The real God of BW!).
Unfortunately discussions on this topic are about as bad if not worse than balance discussions. Bonjwa is a word held to such an unearthly high esteem that a fundamentalist interpretation of the word has been developed by some of the BW (and some of the SC2) community that will not tolerate the discussion at all -- not even the declaration of a Bonjwa, just the discussion of it; the threads get derailed and go to shit.
They just don't realize that the Bonjwa as it was defined from 2000-2010 is dead and buried, and there will probably never be a strictly defined Bonjwa again -- at least, not in SC2 like there was in BW. Not because there isn't a player good enough, but because of the exact reason of over-saturation in the amount of tournament games played. The only way to determine if MVP was a Bonjwa comparable to BW Bonjwas would require significant theorycrafting as to how he would dominate if given the same environment BW Bonjwas had with more practice and less opportunities to be studied and sniped. But theres no way to arrive at a conclusion leaving no doubt under such pretenses. The only rational way to discuss it is to disregard what made a BW Bonjwa and re-define it for SC2, accepting that dominance has more modern and different requirements in SC2. Or just sit in a corner and say no whilst grasping the gospel of BW's golden era and never let an SC2 player who may legitimately earn the title be granted the honor.
It's literally comparable to sports discussions that argue which player from x era was greater, like comparing Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretsky, or Muhammad Ali to Mike Tyson. Except they still consider the latter competitors great. :/
hehe ya, the word Bonjwa is held to a really high standard in the BW community. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only 5 bonjwas in BW. Heck, Jaedong, the tyrant, the player who was a top 2 Zerg by BW's end and accomplished a lot over his rather long career isn't considered a bonjwa by many BW fans so ya, strict definition of what a bonjwa is.
As for mvp, he has my respect for being quite the force in WoL and he is indeed the king of wings. I still dunno if such a word applies to him though. He definitely had some periods where he played really well but when considering just how many GSLs there are and how long his WoL career was etc... it doesn't feel like he was as dominant as I initially thought. His record while impressive has a lot of foreigner wins in them. I think if we are to go back and look at his real record(only Koreans and GSL) then maybe we'll see a different picture(one of less dominance). Either way, he was the best player in WoL(for quite some time) and no one can take that away from him.
If there's anyone that I would've considered a bonjwa had he continued his dominance, it would've been life. That kid has balls of steel. Being down 3-0 against leenock and coming back 4 games in a row to win. Winning mvp 4-3 in a close series to win GSL. He was always favoured against everyone he played against when he made his breakout and if it wasn't for HoTS release, he might still be. We might've even see a bonjwa in SCII(by SCII standards I mean). To me, life would've been the only SCII bonjwa if he continued his great play. Too bad he slipped and plays as much LoL as SCII these days lol
Mvp's specialty was against Koreans in the GSL... his career was padded by foreigner victories, but Mvp was never seen as a money-hungry mercenary like MC. Mvp's home turf was always the GSL.
Looking at his WoL career from 2010 to 2012 against Koreans in offline settings (AKA GSL), he has a 68% match win rate. If we just look at 2011, his match win rate was 76%, making it the most dominant year of StarCraft history (oh yeah, and he earned $250,000+ in that year if memory serves me).
Now you say that Life was favored against everyone he played against... the truth is that he wasn't. Lots of people actually expected MarineKing to beat him (which is laughable now), and people definitely thought TaeJa was going to beat Life (remember, it was the Summer of TaeJa). So yes, Life was pretty much the underdog in that GSL all the way until the finals. After GSL, you have an argument to make about Life being favored against everyone... but he simply didn't deliver, mainly because of his ZvZ.
In 2011, Mvp was the heavy favorite against everyone. Starting with MLG Anaheim, people were wondering about his form... but he was still considered a favorite. GSL August? People were afraid of another 4-0 GSL final. GSL October? Mvp was the heavy favorite over MMA, and MMA acknowledged that. BlizzCon? Heavy favorite. MLG Providence, GSL November, Blizzard Cup? Mvp. He was so dominant in 2011 that people literally expected him to win every single tournament he joined... and he came damn close.
4-3 finals against Leenock and Mvp aren't really signs of dominance either... if you look at Mvp's 2011, he won 3 GSLs, none of them with a 4-3 score. 4-0 MarineKing, 4-2 MarineKing, 4-1 TOP. That's pretty dominant.
Then, you mention that Life could have been bonjwa if it wasn't for the release of HotS... well, where was Life in GSL S5 2012? Out in the Ro16 by Soulkey. What about GSL S1 2013? Knocked out in the Ro16 again. Even before HotS, Life did falter. Also, you shouldn't argue that HotS ruined Life's career because WoL is widely considered to be imbalanced in Zerg's favor. I'm not implying that Life was only good because of Infestors, but I am saying that if the release of HotS killed Life, then perhaps Life did not have what it takes to truly be dominant over a long period of time (which contains many metagame shifts).
If we're speaking about what-ifs, then what about Mvp? What if he never had wrist issues? During Life's most dominant period, and one of Mvp's lowest periods, Mvp came within inches of winning the G5L trophy while dealing with Infestors and health issues. I could easily say that Mvp would have been a bonjwa if he didn't have his spinal condition. Life's "problem" of HotS seems trivial when compared to Mvp's problems, especially when you consider that Mvp was an absolute innovator who shifted the metagame far more than Life ever did. Consequently, Mvp has won championships in 3 different years while Life has yet to regain his championship form.
People really underestimate 2011 Mvp... 2011 Mvp struck fear in everybody. Nowadays, everyone and his/her grandma wants to play Mvp because Mvp looks weak, but in 2011, Mvp was a wrecking ball.
I predicted Life to crush MKP, because MKP played the exact kind of way--blind CC first into over aggression--that is punished most by Life's style. Pretty sure he was favored there, but not favored vs Taeja
Don't forget Mvp's Mech vs Life which wasn't supposed to work
On September 23 2013 16:11 lichter wrote: I predicted Life to crush MKP, because MKP played the exact kind of way--blind CC first into over aggression--that is punished most by Life's style. Pretty sure he was favored there, but not favored vs Taeja
Don't forget Mvp's Mech vs Life which wasn't supposed to work
Life was indeed favored over MarineKing, I was wrong about that. He wasn't heavily favored though, lots of people gave MarineKing a chance... and were disappointed by the 3-0 thrashing which came
And yeah, Mvp's mech wasn't supposed to work. Especially not if he uses it seven games in a row. Especially if he's only using mech because his wrists hurt too much for bio. Especially since Life was very adept at demolishing mech with brood lord/infestor and lings...
Reasons why Life is favored: mechanics, strategy, momentum, metagame, skill... Reasons why people still voted for Mvp: because he's Mvp. "I don't know how he'll do it but he will!"
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Him and Flash are really comparable too in their respective careers, even ignoring the fact that they are both terran innovators, both won near 400k USD worth of price earnings (Flash a bit more than 400k, Mvp a bit less), both have a similar amount of gold medals, 9 for Mvp and 10 for Flash. Flash won tournaments in 2008, 2009, 2010, and an MSL in 2011. Mvp won tournaments 2011, 2012, 2013, and since he's a crazy bastard, he might as well win a random tournament in 2014 too. So, basically similar length of being in the top. Sure there are a lot of differences, both between the games, the tournament scene, and exactly how they achieved the victories - and how "dominant" they were (Such a bad term though, dominance comes in many forms - but Flash does win in the dominance apartment). Anyway, I don't say this to make the argument Mvp is like Flash as a player, as he's not, they are quite dissimilar people, and very unlike in their playstyle and they have been players under vastly different circumstances. But, it exemplifies the truth that really, BW and SC2 results are more similar than people claim. BW had a ton of 1 time MSL/OSL winners too (And this despite a more unified scene - SC2 has a very split up scene, yet still comparable 1 time championship numbers), and a number of players would scrape out tournament wins, despite having slumps at certain times - not really be dominant for years and years. oov dominated in 2004, then got hit by the OSL winner's curse (Yes, in BW, people would win a tournament and then promptly fall out in the beginning of the next one(s)!), before he had a resurgence for 2006. NaDa slumped time after time, but somehow always clawed his way back in. Both of those guys are considered bonjwas.
Anyway, I'm tired and not sure exactly why I felt compelled to say this, but there you have it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, I wanted to say that SC2 has only existed for a short amount of time, give it a few years and TaeJa will be the next NaDa (The real God of BW!).
Unfortunately discussions on this topic are about as bad if not worse than balance discussions. Bonjwa is a word held to such an unearthly high esteem that a fundamentalist interpretation of the word has been developed by some of the BW (and some of the SC2) community that will not tolerate the discussion at all -- not even the declaration of a Bonjwa, just the discussion of it; the threads get derailed and go to shit.
They just don't realize that the Bonjwa as it was defined from 2000-2010 is dead and buried, and there will probably never be a strictly defined Bonjwa again -- at least, not in SC2 like there was in BW. Not because there isn't a player good enough, but because of the exact reason of over-saturation in the amount of tournament games played. The only way to determine if MVP was a Bonjwa comparable to BW Bonjwas would require significant theorycrafting as to how he would dominate if given the same environment BW Bonjwas had with more practice and less opportunities to be studied and sniped. But theres no way to arrive at a conclusion leaving no doubt under such pretenses. The only rational way to discuss it is to disregard what made a BW Bonjwa and re-define it for SC2, accepting that dominance has more modern and different requirements in SC2. Or just sit in a corner and say no whilst grasping the gospel of BW's golden era and never let an SC2 player who may legitimately earn the title be granted the honor.
It's literally comparable to sports discussions that argue which player from x era was greater, like comparing Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretsky, or Muhammad Ali to Mike Tyson. Except they still consider the latter competitors great. :/
hehe ya, the word Bonjwa is held to a really high standard in the BW community. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only 5 bonjwas in BW. Heck, Jaedong, the tyrant, the player who was a top 2 Zerg by BW's end and accomplished a lot over his rather long career isn't considered a bonjwa by many BW fans so ya, strict definition of what a bonjwa is.
As for mvp, he has my respect for being quite the force in WoL and he is indeed the king of wings. I still dunno if such a word applies to him though. He definitely had some periods where he played really well but when considering just how many GSLs there are and how long his WoL career was etc... it doesn't feel like he was as dominant as I initially thought. His record while impressive has a lot of foreigner wins in them. I think if we are to go back and look at his real record(only Koreans and GSL) then maybe we'll see a different picture(one of less dominance). Either way, he was the best player in WoL(for quite some time) and no one can take that away from him.
If there's anyone that I would've considered a bonjwa had he continued his dominance, it would've been life. That kid has balls of steel. Being down 3-0 against leenock and coming back 4 games in a row to win. Winning mvp 4-3 in a close series to win GSL. He was always favoured against everyone he played against when he made his breakout and if it wasn't for HoTS release, he might still be. We might've even see a bonjwa in SCII(by SCII standards I mean). To me, life would've been the only SCII bonjwa if he continued his great play. Too bad he slipped and plays as much LoL as SCII these days lol
Mvp's specialty was against Koreans in the GSL... his career was padded by foreigner victories, but Mvp was never seen as a money-hungry mercenary like MC. Mvp's home turf was always the GSL.
Looking at his WoL career from 2010 to 2012 against Koreans in offline settings (AKA GSL), he has a 68% match win rate. If we just look at 2011, his match win rate was 76%, making it the most dominant year of StarCraft history (oh yeah, and he earned $250,000+ in that year if memory serves me).
Now you say that Life was favored against everyone he played against... the truth is that he wasn't. Lots of people actually expected MarineKing to beat him (which is laughable now), and people definitely thought TaeJa was going to beat Life (remember, it was the Summer of TaeJa). So yes, Life was pretty much the underdog in that GSL all the way until the finals. After GSL, you have an argument to make about Life being favored against everyone... but he simply didn't deliver, mainly because of his ZvZ.
In 2011, Mvp was the heavy favorite against everyone. Starting with MLG Anaheim, people were wondering about his form... but he was still considered a favorite. GSL August? People were afraid of another 4-0 GSL final. GSL October? Mvp was the heavy favorite over MMA, and MMA acknowledged that. BlizzCon? Heavy favorite. MLG Providence, GSL November, Blizzard Cup? Mvp. He was so dominant in 2011 that people literally expected him to win every single tournament he joined... and he came damn close.
4-3 finals against Leenock and Mvp aren't really signs of dominance either... if you look at Mvp's 2011, he won 3 GSLs, none of them with a 4-3 score. 4-0 MarineKing, 4-2 MarineKing, 4-1 TOP. That's pretty dominant.
Then, you mention that Life could have been bonjwa if it wasn't for the release of HotS... well, where was Life in GSL S5 2012? Out in the Ro16 by Soulkey. What about GSL S1 2013? Knocked out in the Ro16 again. Even before HotS, Life did falter. Also, you shouldn't argue that HotS ruined Life's career because WoL is widely considered to be imbalanced in Zerg's favor. I'm not implying that Life was only good because of Infestors, but I am saying that if the release of HotS killed Life, then perhaps Life did not have what it takes to truly be dominant over a long period of time (which contains many metagame shifts).
If we're speaking about what-ifs, then what about Mvp? What if he never had wrist issues? During Life's most dominant period, and one of Mvp's lowest periods, Mvp came within inches of winning the G5L trophy while dealing with Infestors and health issues. I could easily say that Mvp would have been a bonjwa if he didn't have his spinal condition. Life's "problem" of HotS seems trivial when compared to Mvp's problems, especially when you consider that Mvp was an absolute innovator who shifted the metagame far more than Life ever did. Consequently, Mvp has won championships in 3 different years while Life has yet to regain his championship form.
People really underestimate 2011 Mvp... 2011 Mvp struck fear in everybody. Nowadays, everyone and his/her grandma wants to play Mvp because Mvp looks weak, but in 2011, Mvp was a wrecking ball.
Where are you getting this 76% win rate in 2011 from? According to TLPD, in Korea he had a 69% win rate (the only other individual leagues he played in were the WCG and some Gainward tournament where he went 12-1) and internationally he had a 74% win rate. Most dominant in Starcraft 2 history, but not most dominant in Starcraft history.
That includes all games against only Koreans in an offline setting... which does include tournaments such as Arena of Legends and MLG Providence. In that same period, his match win-rate against non-Koreans was 88%.
Mvp's 2011 is actually comparable to Flash's 2010. Flash won 4 premier Korean tournaments; Mvp won 3 (and made it to the finals of another) while also winning a bunch of foreign tournaments. Let's just say that both Flash's 2010 and Mvp's 2011 were incredible accomplishments, the most successful years in the two games respectively.
I think it's important to remember that use Flash as a benchmark tilts the field in favor of BW. There were bonjwas before him, but none of them maintained close to the same level of consistent dominance that he did. It took 6-7 years of competitive BW for such a player to emerge (or, if you want to look at tournament dominance rather than winning percentage, 9-10 years), while SC2 has only been around for three years and an expansion just came out.
I think the statement regarding Innovation, Kespa, and salaries stands out.
It seems the pecking order for star players is eSF < Kespa < foreign team now. While Kespa offers a steady and stable salary, I don't think they offer the same benefits that foreign teams do especially with how SC2 is doing in Korea. So, I guess the situation is a little like football where players come up through local / smaller teams and then get transferred to teams like FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester United, AC Milan, etc. after they become stars.
Website eSports Earnings has published a list of the highest-paid professional gamers to date for 2013, with the top three grossers being Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel, Lee "Flash" Young Ho and "Jung "Mvp" Jong Hyun.
Fatal1ty earned about $454,000 as part of the Cyberathlete Professional League and a championship title with World Cyber Games. Flash and Mvp earned their money in Starcraft II tourneys, earning $437,114.53 from 40 tournaments and $377,116.37 from 42 tournaments respectively.
On September 23 2013 17:28 RobertBrian wrote: Website eSports Earnings has published a list of the highest-paid professional gamers to date for 2013, with the top three grossers being Johnathan "Fatal1ty" Wendel, Lee "Flash" Young Ho and "Jung "Mvp" Jong Hyun.
Fatal1ty earned about $454,000 as part of the Cyberathlete Professional League and a championship title with World Cyber Games. Flash and Mvp earned their money in Starcraft II tourneys, earning $437,114.53 from 40 tournaments and $377,116.37 from 42 tournaments respectively.
i think you shouldn't bold and quote incomplete information
That includes all games against only Koreans in an offline setting... which does include tournaments such as Arena of Legends and MLG Providence. In that same period, his match win-rate against non-Koreans was 88%.
Mvp's 2011 is actually comparable to Flash's 2010. Flash won 4 premier Korean tournaments; Mvp won 3 (and made it to the finals of another) while also winning a bunch of foreign tournaments. Let's just say that both Flash's 2010 and Mvp's 2011 were incredible accomplishments, the most successful years in the two games respectively.
Going by matches instead of games is kind of strange. If you go by Box series instead of individual games, Flash had a 91% win rate in 2010.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KXwlFGa.jpg)
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