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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:03 IcookTacos wrote: " I will make foreign tournaments my main focus." Oh yeah! If Flash comes to DHW13, I can't even comprehend what that would be like for me. He would need to qualify for it first :D | ||
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
On September 22 2013 19:59 Doublemint wrote: Exactly. That's why now we have an even playing field where foreigners are doing about as well as their Korean counterparts - all things considered! Oh wait... While you have a point, you're not putting certain things into consideration. Korean players had to find different ways to win rather than with just mechanical strength. They got good at strategical decision making, unit composition and win in areas where it's still possible to become better at. As the skill ceiling narrows, builds get tighter, timings get preciser and small mistakes will lead to drastic outcomes, and this is what (imo) makes the game more volatile. The volatility of this game is far more prominent than in broodwar, and it's an undeniable truth. That aside, there have been many more times that foreigners took games off of koreans in starcraft 2 than in broodwar. there has not been one consistent champion except for Mvp for an extended period of time. Champion's curse is a true story | ||
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:08 algue wrote: Brains clashing and the more intelligent player winning. Sure ...  + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/t3wCCqd.jpg) I can tell you're very privy to the strategic elements of SC2. | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:16 EonuS wrote: While you have a point, you're not putting certain things into consideration. Korean players had to find different ways to win rather than with just mechanical strength. They got good at strategical decision making, unit composition and win in areas where it's still possible to become better at. As the skill ceiling narrows, builds get tighter, timings get preciser and small mistakes will lead to drastic outcomes, and this is what (imo) makes the game more volatile. The volatility of this game is far more prominent than in broodwar, and it's an undeniable truth. That aside, there have been many more times that foreigners took games off of koreans in starcraft 2 than in broodwar. there has not been one consistent champion except for Mvp for an extended period of time. Champion's curse is a true story It was true for a long time in BW too (*cough* OSL something something curse *cough*) | ||
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
Coming from BW background, maybe that is how he felt. SC2 is very very easy, compared to BW. I tink every1 must have some idea about this. Just imagine. keke | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On September 22 2013 19:47 EonuS wrote: easy is a relative term and a double edged sword while it gets easier for you, it gets easier for your opponent aswell. This is a good point to mention. Though in terms of difficulty argument, I think people are looking at it the wrong way. I say the skill ceiling in SC2 and in BW are the same. However, what's different is the skill room (not sure if this is an actual term that exists) or how many ways you can win or excel at the game or competition. I made this comparison before but BW is like Chess boxing and SC2 is like Chess alone. For someone who was B+ level in chess and boxing at the same time, their combined skill will allow them to defeat many people easily, even if the opponent has A+ in chess "or" boxing (if they don't have at least B+ In "both", then they may either be outmatched or at best equal with someone who is good at both). When the game switches to being chess alone, then the people who excelled at "Chess boxing" by being good at both are potentially going to be outdone by people who may be more better at one (in this case, chess alone). (Another quick example is Basketball competition vs a pure slam dunking contest. You can't say one is harder than the other directly but you can say a Basketball competition allows player to excel in different ways compared to a pure slam dunking contest where the only players who are good are the ones who are able to slam dunk well.) Skill ceiling may be the same in BW and in SC2 but the skill diversity and requirements to win are much smaller in SC2 compared to BW. In BW, you could win through many means (not only through strategy or build orders but simply by being mechanical better or just controlling Mutalisk better). In SC2, the amount of ways you can win is lower. In SC2, winning is still just as hard but the amount of ways you can win is lower than in BW. Obviously, I am talking about mechanics. Also about mechanics, are they harder in BW or in SC2? I say they're about the same difficulty "however" mechanics is much more rewarded (proportional to effort to micro/macro, etc) in BW than in SC2. Sure in SC2, there are ton of micro and macro tricks you can do, and no one has mastered them. However, are they practical to do and practical to master? No, and the reason is simply because most micro tricks in SC2 are just "how fast you can do it" and that's it. In BW, micro tricks wasn't just "how fast you can do it" but a large part of micro and how to efficiently micro the units required some thought into it. Microing Mutalisk is probably one of the hardest things to master "however" it is very practical and easy to learn and do. Also the way you use Mutalisk, requires attention, it's not just "spam clicky" like in SC2. In BW, you had to only move certain directions with Mutalisk stack, and also you had to know when to use patrol, move, attack-move, direct attack, "or" hold position commands depending on angle and distance of the targets and what you want to do with the Mutalisk (yes, it really was that deep). For example, with Scourges, using patrol micro was much easier but if you wanted to attack marines or structures directly, sometimes manually moving the Mutalisk to the target "then" directly attacking the target you want it to attack is better than the others. In cases where you just want all the Mutalisk to fire at once then move right away, using hold position works well and is sometimes easier. Doing Mutalisk micro wasn't "pure mechanical" thing but actually had some thought process as well. In SC2, there aren't that many instances of micro with that much depth. I say the closest to practical and rewarding micro is blink stalker micro. Splitting up marines or splitting up units against banelings or AoE targets is something "you just do" and simply requires quick reflexes and actions. In BW, there were much more deep micro tricks that wasn't just how fast you did it but also required thought as there may have been multiple ways for you to do it. Splitting up marines against banelings is just one thing. The way you controlled Mutalisk or Shuttle + Reaver or Vultures had many methods to do it. This allowed players to differentiate and distinguish themselves more. TL:DR - In BW there are more ways to play and win compared to SC2. For example, there are more ways you can micro a unit in BW than in SC2. If you took advantage of all the different ways to micro, then you are rewarded for it. Microing in BW wasn't just "how fast you did it" but also (as noted by Mutalisk micro for example) required a lot of thought because there are so many different ways to control the Mutalisk. Anyway, as for BW or SC2 or the debate which game is better and which game is more casual friendly. Honestly I say BW is more casual friendly. Why? The game is more rewarding to play. When you practice how to use a unit, you get better, it really shows. In SC2, there aren't as many units like that where you are really rewarded for just using them. It's more strategy oriented. Anything that requires micro is usually "how fast you can react or how fast you can do it" while in BW, the micro was more practical and easier to do and easier for beginners to learn. I remember reading that BW (after HotS released) is still beating SC2 (in South Korea). BW is 6th place in PC bangs while SC2 is 11th. Again, in BW, how you practiced micro and macro was more straight forward, and micro tricks were easy to replicate but still hard to master. Micro wasn't just "you need good reflexes and need to be fast" but they also had a lot of depth and you could learn and get better easier. When a casual player watches a pro does something, then tries it, and finds out they can do it decently then they feel rewarded and want to try more. Compared to SC2, when most of it just goes down to "how fast you can do it and if you aren't this fast, you can't do it well", then it's not as easy to get into or learn or practice. | ||
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XaCez
Sweden6991 Posts
On September 22 2013 20:34 Goldfish wrote: Since then BW has stayed 6th while SC2 has dropped to 19th.I remember reading that BW (after HotS released) is still beating SC2 (in South Korea). BW is 6th place in PC bangs while SC2 is 11th. http://gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=13901 | ||
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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On September 22 2013 16:56 UmberBane wrote: I actually think for a new player BW is easier to get into.  What I mean by that is that due to how UMS and team games were in BW, a lot more casual players could have a blast just playing with their friends, yet still got "into" the game and built up some appreciation for the professional play, even if it's on the most basic level (that's how BW/eSports in Korea worked, and still does, just with other games). In SC2 it's not that inviting and you feel more lonely, which makes it harder again for a complete newb to get into it. I know of course that the question was aimed at 1v1 ladder, but still. BW's barrier for entry at this point in time is pretty ridiculous. Most people who are still playing have been doing so for years and it's hard for newcomers to accept that they're going to have to start things off by losing like 50 games in a row, even in UMS and teams. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments. | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 22 2013 22:26 FeyFey wrote: Oh the difficult discussion coming up alot lately. Sc2 is faster then BW in order to make up for the easier mechanical demand. Difficult shifted not changed. Imo Sc2 is harder, because it is rather easy to learn those tedious acts in BW, compared to getting faster in your decisions as you need in Sc2. But that is only my personal experience and partly analysis of professional gaming and what makes the players special that are usually on top. But a really nice interview by flash, a bit sad he will concentrate on foreign tournaments. The gamespeed is faster in broodwar | ||
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lolfail9001
Russian Federation40190 Posts
The actual gameplay speed in SC2 is much faster though. | ||
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romanianthunder
Romania36 Posts
Ah yes the classical strat of koreans who are not achieving success in korea atm:only foreign tournaments and then transition into foreign team and probably foreign wcs.It did miracles for jaedong.Although I would much more prefer to see flash in wcs eu and na.He has a good foreign fanbase and if he pulls miracles like jaedong he will most likely boost the viewership of those regions.Flahs and jaedong and maybe boxer are probably the only koreans who can surpass a foreigner in terms of popularity and appeal so it would actually help eu and na get more popularity.If flash does not achieve much in this wcs season most likely he will transfer innovation style ot a foreign team.EGFlash with Flash and Jaedong in the same team would be awsome, | ||
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HeavyCross
Canada21 Posts
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ftm
Australia47 Posts
i really respect flash's determination - leaving his enviable BW status and committing to sc2. he's such a gun. | ||
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Caladan
Germany1238 Posts
Starcraft is far from dead! | ||
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PAtrIOt_37
United States22 Posts
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote: If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is. Im pretty sure hes saying that more people can enjoy the game and get proficient at it. Could be a translation issue. | ||
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Spidinko
Slovakia1174 Posts
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
get over it. bw was harder to play so more effort went into being able to just play the game sc2 is easier to play so more effort allegedly goes itno strategy ... in rality there isnt much so in the end it turns into precision of execustion -> voilotile games. what is the problem understanding what is happening? Why not go play a real strategy game then come back and talk about strategy. Its a REAL time strategy game ... its still at the end of the day having a higher tick rate than the other guy | ||
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Foxxan
Sweden3427 Posts
On September 22 2013 22:55 lolfail9001 wrote: The actual gameplay speed in SC2 is much faster though. What do u mean? | ||
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