Flash's Interview about SC2's current predicament - Page 10

On September 23 2013 03:51 Zealously wrote:


There were rumors that the last PL would be the last and that clearly wasn't the case

On September 23 2013 02:51 stuchiu wrote:


You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.

Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.

And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.

On September 23 2013 02:15 Vete wrote:


TvP Mech unplayable

TvZ mech not really viable (viper say hello)

TvT mech is viable. widow mines counter battlecruisers wtf....


TvP : what should be better than cc first in TvP? don't forget MSC decline the most/all early agression. at his skil level.

On September 23 2013 04:33 Zealously wrote:
Meh we all know Life is vastly superior to Mvp anyway

On September 23 2013 04:05 Kasaraki wrote:

Him and Flash are really comparable too in their respective careers, even ignoring the fact that they are both terran innovators, both won near 400k USD worth of price earnings (Flash a bit more than 400k, Mvp a bit less), both have a similar amount of gold medals, 9 for Mvp and 10 for Flash. Flash won tournaments in 2008, 2009, 2010, and an MSL in 2011. Mvp won tournaments 2011, 2012, 2013, and since he's a crazy bastard, he might as well win a random tournament in 2014 too. So, basically similar length of being in the top. Sure there are a lot of differences, both between the games, the tournament scene, and exactly how they achieved the victories - and how "dominant" they were (Such a bad term though, dominance comes in many forms - but Flash does win in the dominance apartment). Anyway, I don't say this to make the argument Mvp is like Flash as a player, as he's not, they are quite dissimilar people, and very unlike in their playstyle and they have been players under vastly different circumstances. But, it exemplifies the truth that really, BW and SC2 results are more similar than people claim. BW had a ton of 1 time MSL/OSL winners too (And this despite a more unified scene - SC2 has a very split up scene, yet still comparable 1 time championship numbers), and a number of players would scrape out tournament wins, despite having slumps at certain times - not really be dominant for years and years. oov dominated in 2004, then got hit by the OSL winner's curse (Yes, in BW, people would win a tournament and then promptly fall out in the beginning of the next one(s)!), before he had a resurgence for 2006. NaDa slumped time after time, but somehow always clawed his way back in. Both of those guys are considered bonjwas.

Anyway, I'm tired and not sure exactly why I felt compelled to say this, but there you have it.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I remember, I wanted to say that SC2 has only existed for a short amount of time, give it a few years and TaeJa will be the next NaDa (The real God of BW!).

On September 23 2013 13:40 Lunareste wrote:


Except that even big name people in the community think that Infestor imbalance robbed Mvp of the G5L.

On September 23 2013 13:40 Lunareste wrote:


Except that even big name people in the community think that Infestor imbalance robbed Mvp of the G5L.

On September 23 2013 14:11 rd wrote:


Unfortunately discussions on this topic are about as bad if not worse than balance discussions. Bonjwa is a word held to such an unearthly high esteem that a fundamentalist interpretation of the word has been developed by some of the BW (and some of the SC2) community that will not tolerate the discussion at all -- not even the declaration of a Bonjwa, just the discussion of it; the threads get derailed and go to shit.

They just don't realize that the Bonjwa as it was defined from 2000-2010 is dead and buried, and there will probably never be a strictly defined Bonjwa again -- at least, not in SC2 like there was in BW. Not because there isn't a player good enough, but because of the exact reason of over-saturation in the amount of tournament games played. The only way to determine if MVP was a Bonjwa comparable to BW Bonjwas would require significant theorycrafting as to how he would dominate if given the same environment BW Bonjwas had with more practice and less opportunities to be studied and sniped. But theres no way to arrive at a conclusion leaving no doubt under such pretenses. The only rational way to discuss it is to disregard what made a BW Bonjwa and re-define it for SC2, accepting that dominance has more modern and different requirements in SC2. Or just sit in a corner and say no whilst grasping the gospel of BW's golden era and never let an SC2 player who may legitimately earn the title be granted the honor.

It's literally comparable to sports discussions that argue which player from x era was greater, like comparing Bobby Orr to Wayne Gretsky, or Muhammad Ali to Mike Tyson. Except they still consider the latter competitors great. :/

On September 23 2013 15:37 DinoToss wrote:
Hello, its 2013 stop talking about bonjwas.

On September 23 2013 15:39 lichter wrote:


If Stork makes it to Code S and wins it next season can we talk about bonjwas

On September 23 2013 15:06 BigFan wrote:

explain? you mean the one he lost against life?


hehe ya, the word Bonjwa is held to a really high standard in the BW community. Unless I'm mistaken, there are only 5 bonjwas in BW. Heck, Jaedong, the tyrant, the player who was a top 2 Zerg by BW's end and accomplished a lot over his rather long career isn't considered a bonjwa by many BW fans so ya, strict definition of what a bonjwa is.

As for mvp, he has my respect for being quite the force in WoL and he is indeed the king of wings. I still dunno if such a word applies to him though. He definitely had some periods where he played really well but when considering just how many GSLs there are and how long his WoL career was etc... it doesn't feel like he was as dominant as I initially thought. His record while impressive has a lot of foreigner wins in them. I think if we are to go back and look at his real record(only Koreans and GSL) then maybe we'll see a different picture(one of less dominance). Either way, he was the best player in WoL(for quite some time) and no one can take that away from him.

If there's anyone that I would've considered a bonjwa had he continued his dominance, it would've been life. That kid has balls of steel. Being down 3-0 against leenock and coming back 4 games in a row to win. Winning mvp 4-3 in a close series to win GSL. He was always favoured against everyone he played against when he made his breakout and if it wasn't for HoTS release, he might still be. We might've even see a bonjwa in SCII(by SCII standards I mean). To me, life would've been the only SCII bonjwa if he continued his great play. Too bad he slipped and plays as much LoL as SCII these days lol

On September 23 2013 16:11 lichter wrote:
I predicted Life to crush MKP, because MKP played the exact kind of way--blind CC first into over aggression--that is punished most by Life's style. Pretty sure he was favored there, but not favored vs Taeja

Don't forget Mvp's Mech vs Life which wasn't supposed to work

On September 23 2013 16:03 Entirety wrote:


Mvp's specialty was against Koreans in the GSL... his career was padded by foreigner victories, but Mvp was never seen as a money-hungry mercenary like MC. Mvp's home turf was always the GSL.

Looking at his WoL career from 2010 to 2012 against Koreans in offline settings (AKA GSL), he has a 68% match win rate. If we just look at 2011, his match win rate was 76%, making it the most dominant year of StarCraft history (oh yeah, and he earned $250,000+ in that year if memory serves me).

Now you say that Life was favored against everyone he played against... the truth is that he wasn't. Lots of people actually expected MarineKing to beat him (which is laughable now), and people definitely thought TaeJa was going to beat Life (remember, it was the Summer of TaeJa). So yes, Life was pretty much the underdog in that GSL all the way until the finals. After GSL, you have an argument to make about Life being favored against everyone... but he simply didn't deliver, mainly because of his ZvZ.

In 2011, Mvp was the heavy favorite against everyone. Starting with MLG Anaheim, people were wondering about his form... but he was still considered a favorite. GSL August? People were afraid of another 4-0 GSL final. GSL October? Mvp was the heavy favorite over MMA, and MMA acknowledged that. BlizzCon? Heavy favorite. MLG Providence, GSL November, Blizzard Cup? Mvp. He was so dominant in 2011 that people literally expected him to win every single tournament he joined... and he came damn close.

4-3 finals against Leenock and Mvp aren't really signs of dominance either... if you look at Mvp's 2011, he won 3 GSLs, none of them with a 4-3 score. 4-0 MarineKing, 4-2 MarineKing, 4-1 TOP. That's pretty dominant.

Then, you mention that Life could have been bonjwa if it wasn't for the release of HotS... well, where was Life in GSL S5 2012? Out in the Ro16 by Soulkey. What about GSL S1 2013? Knocked out in the Ro16 again. Even before HotS, Life did falter. Also, you shouldn't argue that HotS ruined Life's career because WoL is widely considered to be imbalanced in Zerg's favor. I'm not implying that Life was only good because of Infestors, but I am saying that if the release of HotS killed Life, then perhaps Life did not have what it takes to truly be dominant over a long period of time (which contains many metagame shifts).

If we're speaking about what-ifs, then what about Mvp? What if he never had wrist issues? During Life's most dominant period, and one of Mvp's lowest periods, Mvp came within inches of winning the G5L trophy while dealing with Infestors and health issues. I could easily say that Mvp would have been a bonjwa if he didn't have his spinal condition. Life's "problem" of HotS seems trivial when compared to Mvp's problems, especially when you consider that Mvp was an absolute innovator who shifted the metagame far more than Life ever did. Consequently, Mvp has won championships in 3 different years while Life has yet to regain his championship form.

People really underestimate 2011 Mvp... 2011 Mvp struck fear in everybody. Nowadays, everyone and his/her grandma wants to play Mvp because Mvp looks weak, but in 2011, Mvp was a wrecking ball.