On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
TvP Mech unplayable
TvZ mech not really viable (viper say hello)
TvT mech is viable. widow mines counter battlecruisers wtf....
TvP : what should be better than cc first in TvP? don't forget MSC decline the most/all early agression. at his skil level.
It is not really about viable versus not viable. It is about the best way to play, which Koreans obviously want to do. Bio has always been the best way to play Terran. It just scales so well to multitasking and mechanical skill overall.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
David Kim hates Siege Tanks...He build SC2 on the idea of to make them useless and put in the game many units that hard counters them. Even in Hots Blizzard put more units to counter Mech especially for Zerg: buffed Ultras, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, buffed mutas. I can't see how Blizzard can make Mech viable with the amount of hard counters present in the game. In BW the most exciting fights involved mech play, just saying.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
David Kim hates Siege Tanks...He build SC2 on the idea of to make them useless and put in the game many units that hard counters them. Even in Hots Blizzard put more units to counter Mech especially for Zerg: buffed Ultras, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, buffed mutas. I can't see how Blizzard can make Mech viable with the amount of hard counters present in the game. In BW the most exciting fights involved mech play, just saying.
most exciting fights? Let me remember from the old good Bogus v Soulkey encounters in SPL... Uhm, they did not involve meching player doing anything other than a moving and pressing o though. Also, ultras honestly suck against good turtle mech, so buff for ultras is irrelevant. Especially since ultra buff was related to usage of fucking marines and hellions to tank 'em. Swarm hosts were designed to counter turtling play, especially since it was getting kinda popular when SHs were created and zerg (pre ghost nerf) did not even had a way to actually destroy it (see Mvp vs Nestea final game of Blizzcon). Vipers actually were needed to negate positional advantages, as zerg was outright horrible in positional disadvantage. Buffed mutas... thank widow mines.
On September 23 2013 02:09 Fission wrote: I find Flash's comments on Terran strategic options being limited rather interesting. It wasn't that long ago that it was indisputably the case that Terran had by far the most options - and it still may be the case. Flash should learn more builds than just cc first variations.
Right now, Mio is the absolute best way to play. Pretty sure that is what he means.
Correct and I hope Blizzard starts seeing the problem and starts to make mech viable again.
David Kim hates Siege Tanks...He build SC2 on the idea of to make them useless and put in the game many units that hard counters them. Even in Hots Blizzard put more units to counter Mech especially for Zerg: buffed Ultras, Vipers, Swarm Hosts, buffed mutas. I can't see how Blizzard can make Mech viable with the amount of hard counters present in the game. In BW the most exciting fights involved mech play, just saying.
most exciting fights? Let me remember from the old good Bogus v Soulkey encounters in SPL... Uhm, they did not involve meching player doing anything other than a moving and pressing o though. Also, ultras honestly suck against good turtle mech, so buff for ultras is irrelevant. Especially since ultra buff was related to usage of fucking marines and hellions to tank 'em. Swarm hosts were designed to counter turtling play, especially since it was getting kinda popular when SHs were created and zerg (pre ghost nerf) did not even had a way to actually destroy it (see Mvp vs Nestea final game of Blizzcon). Vipers actually were needed to negate positional advantages, as zerg was outright horrible in positional disadvantage. Buffed mutas... thank widow mines.
SH counter turtle mech play... check Viper counter non-turtle mech play... check Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Huge respect for Flash. Also, I can't see how this interview could be interpreted as an attack on SC2. Clearly, Flash is someone that still believes in SC2, despite the leaving of some of his colleagues.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
he will always be known to me, as a woongjin terran!
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
Best comment all thread.
What Flash meant as a comment to encourage new players turned this thread into the billionth sc2 v bw argue-fest.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
A game being easier for everyone does not mean some players won't do better than others. What's your point?
The bigger difference is the game is simpler to get to a high level at, and it's easier to take games off higher-level players.
On September 23 2013 01:53 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:45 Shinokuki wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:41 Zealously wrote:
On September 23 2013 01:40 Dfgj wrote:
On September 22 2013 16:19 Cheren wrote:
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
Because it's easier for everyone.
Which is why Bomber/Flash/Taeja/Mvp/Life/DongRaeGu/Nestea all displayed more dominant form at their peaks?
Maybe improved more game sense and decisionmaking. Other than that, all skills are same. Talk to me when a player dominates the scene with 68% win rate for 3 YEARS
You're not allowing for the fact that BW records are pretty much entirely prepared-for MSL/OSL/SPL games, while SC2 has far wider ranges of competition included and the games are more frequent. Comparing winrates is kind of a hazy concept imo.
You guys don't quite understand exactly how insane Mvp's career is, so let me put it this way. Among the decade of BW competition there has been a total of about 70 major competitions if you include every OSL/MSL/WCG. In just WoL alone we have had 75 major lans in just 2.5 years including: MLG, OSL, GSL, Blizz cups, Blizzcons, WCG's, WCS, DH, Iron Squid and IEM.
Among that entire time Mvp was the dominant force throughout the scene and he was only healthy during the first year of his reign. His second year was plagued by wrist/back problems and his third year was plagued by the infestor. It should have been impossible for anyone to claim the tittle of the greatest for longer than a month, but Mvp did it for 3 years.
And despite his wrists, despite the imbalance, Mvp was the single best player at preparing a series and the single best innovator in all of SC2 (having innovated in all three matchups multiple times throughout his career). I don't care at all about the sc2 vs bw debate, but you better fucking remember who the fuck the king is and why we call him the king.
"His third year was plagued by the infestor." Hahaha. This is so funny. It is indeed a healthy problem.
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
Flash: This game is very easy. Comparing to SC1, multitasking is easier and hotkeys are easier. So utilizing this part, everyone can play well.
If it's so easy, why isn't he winning anything? I agree that SC2 is easier than BW but Taeja and Bomber are clearly playing better SC2 than Flash is.
I think he is saying that you don't have to fight the UI to be able to multitask etc. That means that its easier for a newbie to pick up the game and play, instead of simply learning how to build your base and manage your workers. So taking advantage of the fact that you can easily Q units, buildings, and rally points, as well as put your army in one huge group, its easier for a new player to play at decent level compared to having to learn the interface first.
On September 23 2013 02:51 Everlong wrote: Viper (originally designed to counter "large packs of marines") conter Marines... not really
Also, why on earth would you want units to generate positional advantages when you already have fastest moving army + fastest remax? Doesn't make much sense to me...
Flock of mutas with fast Overseer is actually one of the best ways to cealr Widow Mines, so yeah, thanks..
Because speed of remax does not matter with your enemy has a position that allows him to ignore your production capabilities. Also, Viper was NEVER designed to counter large packs of marines. Also, widow mines made Blizz buff mutas, as 1 occasional hit of those was making mutas much worse for good 2+minutes, while speedyvac made 'em buff it's speed.
If your enemy is in position where he can ignore your production I guess you already have lost the game.
Also, you are wrong and I'm right with the Viper:
With Mutas, it boils down to micro/control. If WM is the ultimate hard-counter to Mutas, why do we see them every game vs 4M?
edit: Blinding Cloud was not able to blind mechanical units when it was first released. Also sorry for off topic.
To be brutally honest I think if the next Proleague was BW they would have more fans in the stands. Also it was rumored next Proleague would be SC2's last, only LOL from then on.
EPT
